Works Complete Faith?

[Truthnightmare]

If what you propose is right, then the Pharisees would have had to be believers. They are the audience Jesus is speaking to.

Was the Pharisees the audience He was speaking to? Or were they part of a bigger crowd?

Who was Jesus speaking to before the Pharisees addressed him?

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the [d]blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”
24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by [e]Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”
25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

The Unpardonable Sin
31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone whospeaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

I’m thinking when Jesus says anyone that covers more than Pharisees.

 

[romans113336]

Yup I was right. There is some kind of bizarre hyper-Armenian doctrine going down behind all of the bafflegab and bluster.

Yep, I was right: you're condemning me for "believing in Scripture".

Believing and then unbelieving, salvation and then condemnation........flipping on and off like a strobe light.

Time for the ignore button bye-bye.

If your only option when faced with Scripture is to blatantly lie about the person citing Scripture, and then "ignore", you need to rethink what you are believing, because it's obviously not coherent, plus you're not going to just get away with slandering your brothers.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

That's not the issue--the issue is that Romans 7 is not about believers, but describes the life of a Jew under the Law prior to Christ.

Except, of course it IS about "believers" Paul was one, and he STILL STRUGGLED with his flesh.

 

[romans113336]

Except, of course it IS about "believers" Paul was one, and he STILL STRUGGLED with his flesh.

1. It is about the past--"when we were in the flesh, the Law aroused our sinful passions", whereas Christians are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit" (Ro 8:9).
2. Paul says "no covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in God's Kingdom", but the man in Ro 7 is completely conquered by sin, and, explicitly, the sin of covetousness. Is Paul saying he has no inheritance in God's Kingdom? That's what you are saying, even if you don't understand you're saying that.
3. The man in Ro 7 could not keep God's Law, but Paul did (Ro 8:4).
4. The man in Ro 7 was "held captive" to Sin, but, after Christ (Ro 7:24,25), he is "set free" (Ro 7:6, 8:2).
5. The man in Ro 7 is "dead" in his sins, but Christians are "alive from the dead" (Ro 6:13).

Not sure how you're disagreeing, in the light of these things.

 

[Dino246]

You must think highly of yourself if you equate your personal faith to the faith of Jesus Christ. My faith is weak and pathetic and could never justify. Daily, I fall short of the glory of God. It is only by Christ's faith that I am justified.

If your faith is weak and pathetic, it obviously is not the gift of God.

 

[cv5]

Christians are to walk in faith not merely have faith and there is an ongoing judgment and justification that relies on walking in faith

Ti 3:7
That being justified by His grace, We should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Justified once and for all by His grace. What did you think? There was some other way?

 

[romans113336]

If your faith is weak and pathetic, it obviously is not the gift of God.

Romans 14
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.

 

[Dino246]

Romans 14
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.

Do you feel better now?

 

[romans113336]

Ti 3:7
That being justified by His grace, We should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Justified once and for all by His grace. What did you think? There was some other way?

Yes, we are justified by His grace.
Yes, we are made heirs.
Yes, according to the hope of eternal life.

However, since I believe the entire Bible, I ALSO believe other doctrines:
1. I remember Esau had a birthright, and he forfeited it because he was immoral.
2. I remember that the Jews were "saved", but still fell under God's wrath, and forfeited the promise (in their case, it was Canaan, in our case, it is eternal life in Christ), because they sinned--and Paul says the same could happen to himself (1 Co 9:26, 1 Co 10).
3. Those who abide in Him have no condemnation, because they're not sinning (Ro 8:1), but those who sin are "condemned" because they are not abiding, just as 1 Jn 2:28 warns "remain in Him so that you will not draw back in shame at His appearing" (and it is "idolatry" that draws people away from abiding in Him 1 Jn 5:21).
4. Again, we are to both have faith and walk in it--same thing taught in Ro 2:6-16, 6:14, 8:12,13, Ja 2, etc).

 

[romans113336]

Do you feel better now?

I just thought it was odd you would say that when you have to know Ro 14:1.

 

[romans113336]

Except, of course it IS about "believers" Paul was one, and he STILL STRUGGLED with his flesh.

Actually, Paul said his conscience was clear and he wasn't aware he was sinning.

1 Cor 4
4For I am not aware of anything against myself; however I am not vindicated by this, but the one who examines me is the Lord.

So, no, again, Ro 7 is not descriptive of Paul's life as a Christian.

 

[Cameron143]

Was the Pharisees the audience He was speaking to? Or were they part of a bigger crowd?

Who was Jesus speaking to before the Pharisees addressed him?

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the [d]blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”
24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by [e]Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”
25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

The Unpardonable Sin
31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone whospeaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

I’m thinking when Jesus says anyone that covers more than Pharisees.

I think it covers everyone. But in explaining the Hebrews 6 passage you said it was referring to believers. If only believers can commit the unpardonable sin, the Pharisees would have to be amongst the believers. They were the ones who leveled the charge.

 

[romans113336]

If only believers can commit the unpardonable sin, the Pharisees would have to be amongst the believers. They were the ones who leveled the charge.

Just tangentially, this is precisely what people are saying when they identify the "99 sheep" as "the saved" (in Luke 15)--actually, Jesus was saying, "You Pharisees say you are righteous, and not in need of being saved, so let's pretend that's true." The "99 sheep" were the Pharisees!

 

[cv5]

and forfeited the promise (in their case, it was Canaan, in our case, it is eternal life in Christ), because they sinned--

Christians have forfeited eternal life because they sinned?
That's about it for me. Bye-bye September 23, 2023 guy.

 

[romans113336]

Except, of course it IS about "believers" Paul was one, and he STILL STRUGGLED with his flesh.

Also, Paul said that he, as a Christian, made his body his slave (1 Co 9:26).
What is sin? Spiritual slavery.
But, he had it the other way around: he (his inward man) made his body its slave.
So he had sin under control.

So, again, no, Ro 7 is not about Paul's Christian life, but about his pre-Christian life as a Jew under the Law.

 

[romans113336]

That's about it for me. Bye-bye fella.

Again, I'm a "bad guy", for believing Scripture, somehow.
I believe what you believe--but I also believe much more, because Scripture has much more to teach.

Keep in mind that my view aligns with the ancient Churches.
No one believed in "faith alone--my deeds after I am saved don't affect my standing before God in a salvific way" in the early Church. They all believed as I do--and I provide Scripture for everything I am believing.

This you take issue with.
Tsk tsk tsk.

 

[romans113336]

Please point me to where I have explained my view of Romans 14:23.

Oh? You can't?

Then just how is it I am trying wave Romans 14:23 away?

I gave some context. Period. You disagree with Scripture.

Here is where I answered your answer (you call it "context"--"No, that's not God condemning them, that's self-condemnation.") to my view of Ro 14:23 ("God condemns the Christian who sins").

@Magenta @mailmandan @TheDivineWatermark @Cameron143 @cv51. Does God condemn "sin", or is God unrighteous? Don't we need forgiveness--and doesn't that mean we sin not just "condemn ourselves"?

2. Even if you wanted to argue, "No, it's about him bringing condemnation on himself", remember that this "self condemnation" is by destroying his brother by misleading his brother to destroy his own conscience by encouraging them to practice what their own conscience cannot allow them to practice. This destruction of your brother is ALSO a sin against God, destroying God's work, which is a real sin, as well, and leads to God condemning the sinning Christian who is destroying his brother.

There's no way out of the reading I have espoused--the sinning Christian is condemned by God.

That doesn't mean I have it all together, or that everyone should follow me, it just means I am saying what the text is saying.

I'm not sure how you missed my response.
(I have clarified it a bit from the original to remove typos and to make it easier to understand my point.)

If I have misunderstood you or misrepresented you in any way, please let me know.

 

[romans113336]

Christians have forfeited eternal life because they sinned?

Nope, that's not what I said--and you know that.

Stop slandering me.

You cannot answer the arguments I present, so, instead, you accuse me of something ridiculous, something heretical, something I have denied over and over, because you can only "prove your point true" if you are dishonest and only answer something that is ridiculous, and obviously not what I've said.

Doesn't that bother you? Who are you tricking? Are you tricking yourself? How could you live with yourself knowing you're lying about me? Is that what your version Christianity produces? Sin? See, you are a great example for why people shouldn't believe the way you do.

Even when considering the Jews, and how, despite having been saved, they fell under God's wrath, and didn't inherit the promise made to them, Canaan, they didn't die for a single sin, so how on earth are you continuously arriving at that railing accusation against me? Again, I can only surmise it is because you know you are incapable of addressing the actual arguments I'm making, and, so, you are resorting to deception.

STOP IT.

 

[romans113336]

@Magenta @cv5 @Bob-Carabbio @Cameron143 @Dino246 @timemeddler @Truthnightmare @John146 @TheDivineWatermark

Even though I know we've disagreed, I appreciate your prayers. You have helped to open my eyes to pray more and rely on God's power more. Thank you.

 

[oyster67]

If "true faith produces good works" were true

...and it is...

the Corinthians would never have been living in sin.

The Corinthians where obviously not exhibiting true faith if they were living in sin.

However, can we stick to the texts?

Epesians 2 is pretty good text to stick to.

How does Paul say Christians who sin (by doing what they doubt is correct) are "condemned" and not "justified"?

Paul and James agree that their lack of fruit and good works indicates that their faith is not true. It is only by true faith that a man can be justified... and good works will follow as a natural consequence.

See how that works now? Not complicated at all really.