Works Complete Faith?

[mailmandan]

You need to read

he said they had a claimed faith..

discussion over

Amen! James 2:14 -What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? (NIV) Multiple other translations read says he has faith but has no works. That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith/dead faith.

 

[romans113336]

How do you reconcile this with Romans 8:1...There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus?

Remember that "Therefore" of Ro 8:1 is going to make what came before important.
What came before?
The life of a Jew "in the flesh" (not a Christian) under the Law.
A life ruled by sin.
Then he asks for a Deliverer, and finds Christ (Ro 7:24,25).
So, NOW, why is there "no condemnation"?
Because you're not supposed to be walking after the flesh, in doubt, but in faith (Ro 14:5,23).
How is there "no condemnation" and "condemnation"?
Not all Christians walk after the Spirit, some walk after the flesh.
Not all abide in Christ (1 Jn 2:28).
They will experience shame at Christ's appearance, they will die (Dn 12:2, Ro 2:6-16, 8:12,13).

 

[romans113336]

If you actually believe that the sin (or "a" sin) of doubt leads to condemnation of the eternal kind and the eternally ruinous loss of justification, well then I pity you for the impossible task you have burdened yourself with.

As for me, I have faith in the One who is faithful. I am thereby eternally justified and rest in His righteousness, sure mercies and grace.

No, I must not have communicated well enough.
I'm saying justification isn't cemented in place.
I'm saying this is what James is referring to: we must not only have faith but also walk in faith.
When we don't walk in faith, as Ro 14:23 says, we are condemned not justified.
A lifelong lifestyle of living not after the spirit but in doubt will lead to destruction.
As Hebrews 10 also says "If My righteous one draws back... to destruction"

 

[Magenta]

If that is true (it's not), then all humanity (and all land animals) qualifies, since God made
a Covenant with us all, of which the rainbow is a sign, that He won't flood it again.

True, but the rainbow is the sign of a promise not to flood the world. Not all are in/under a saving covenant.

 

[romans113336]

As for me, I have faith in the One who is faithful. I am thereby eternally justified and rest in His righteousness, sure mercies and grace.

Yes, apparently you are one of the many people who do not believe Romans 14:23 or James 2.
That's what this discussion is about.

 

[cv5]

No, when I do good, that is God, because my righteousness is a gift, and "God Is Our Righteousness" (Jer 23:6), yet I am told to "obey", and to "yield your members to God as instruments of righteousness". It's all true, not just part of it.

Well then, by your measure, that "mean" red-X could be a potentially fatal sin that leads to condemnation.
The works righteousness jive talk is much more dire though.

 

[romans113336]

True, but the rainbow is the sign of a promise not to flood the world. Not all are in/under a saving covenant.

Yeah.

 

[romans113336]

Well then, by your measure, that "mean" red-X could be a potentially fatal sin that leads to condemnation.
The works righteousness jive talk is much more dire though.

I don't know what red-X is.

Our good deeds aren't "works of the Law", nor does it mean God has a bad disposition toward us until we do good.

 

[John146]

It is imputed to us through the faith we exercise... which is a gift from God.

You must think highly of yourself if you equate your personal faith to the faith of Jesus Christ. My faith is weak and pathetic and could never justify. Daily, I fall short of the glory of God. It is only by Christ's faith that I am justified. Get yourself a KJV and stick with it.

 

[romans113336]

Amen! James 2:14 -What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? (NIV) Multiple other translations read says he has faith but has no works. That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith/dead faith.

The entire section doesn't concern true and false faith, but complete and incomplete faith--which, he teaches, is faith with works and faith without works--accordingly, Abraham is "justified" on an ongoing basis by his faith works, or walking in faith, "footsteps of faith" (Ro 4), and, also, Christians are (Ro 14:5, 23).

 

[John146]

If I feed and clothe someone, does that prove I have saving faith?

James 2
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[romans113336]

If I feed and clothe someone, does that prove I have saving faith?

James 2
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Not necessarily.

Just as faith can be without works, so, also, works can be without faith.

 

[Cameron143]

So, again, if your view is totally correct, not just partially correct (I agree with it in part--who could disagree), it should wield explanatory power for Romans 14:23. How does it explain it?

One who has been saved has passed from death to life. It is impossible for them to be dead again. So...if someone is under condemnation, they simply have never believed.
The term...damned...there may also be being used to highlight faithlessness, which is true of unbelievers.
There is a difference between saving faith and the exercise of faith. Jesus said his disciples they were of little faith, meaning they weren't exercising the faith they possessed.

 

[cv5]

Yes, apparently you are one of the many people who do not believe Romans 14:23 or James 2.
That's what this discussion is about.

As have already opined, you have absolutely BUTCHERED (pardon the pun) the obvious meaning of those Romans 14 passages.

For pity's sake man they are talking about gentiles eating unclean foods and meat sacrificed to idols. And how to deal with it within the Church. Nothing more than that.

Rom 14:2
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:21
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

 

[Magenta]

I don't know what red-X is.

If you hover over any particular emoji, it tells you what it signifies. X = "Disagree."

 

[romans113336]

As have already opined, you have absolutely BUTCHERED (pardon the pun) the obvious meaning of those Romans 14 passages.

For pity's sake man they are talking about gentiles eating unclean foods and meat sacrificed to idols. And how to deal with it within the Church. Nothing more than that.

Rom 14:2
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:21
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

No, the general rule is given "let every man be fully convinced in his own mind"--accordingly, the transgression of that rule constitutes "sin" (Ro 14:23) resulting in condemnation not justification. Do you deny this or haven't you already experienced this in your own daily walk?

 

[Magenta]

One who has been saved has passed from death to life. It is impossible for them to be dead again.
So...if someone is under condemnation, they simply have never believed.
The term...damned...there may also be being used to highlight faithlessness, which is true of unbelievers.
There is a difference between saving faith and the exercise of faith. Jesus said his disciples
they were of little faith, meaning they weren't exercising the faith they possessed.

Immediately the boy’s father cried out, “I do believe; help my unbelief!”

 

[romans113336]

One who has been saved has passed from death to life. It is impossible for them to be dead again.

Why does Jude say "twice dead"?

So...if someone is under condemnation, they simply have never believed.

Oops, Paul is teaching Christians about the rules of living before God, so that's not a possible true interpretation.

The term...damned...there may also be being used to highlight faithlessness, which is true of unbelievers.
There is a difference between saving faith and the exercise of faith. Jesus said his disciples they were of little faith, meaning they weren't exercising the faith they possessed.

You need to know our salvation is compared to that of the Jews from Egypt--and just as they sinned and fell under wrath, the same can happen to us. You can read 1 Co 10 for more info.

 

[cv5]

No, I must not have communicated well enough.
I'm saying justification isn't cemented in place.
I'm saying this is what James is referring to: we must not only have faith but also walk in faith.
When we don't walk in faith, as Ro 14:23 says, we are condemned not justified.
A lifelong lifestyle of living not after the spirit but in doubt will lead to destruction.
As Hebrews 10 also says "If My righteous one draws back... to destruction"

1Co 5:1
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Let that sink in.

And no, Hebrews 6 and 10 have nothing whatsoever to do with "losing your salvation". This is "impossible".

 

[Cameron143]

Remember that "Therefore" of Ro 8:1 is going to make what came before important.
What came before?
The life of a Jew "in the flesh" (not a Christian) under the Law.
A life ruled by sin.
Then he asks for a Deliverer, and finds Christ (Ro 7:24,25).
So, NOW, why is there "no condemnation"?
Because you're not supposed to be walking after the flesh, in doubt, but in faith (Ro 14:5,23).
How is there "no condemnation" and "condemnation"?
Not all Christians walk after the Spirit, some walk after the flesh.
Not all abide in Christ (1 Jn 2:28).
They will experience shame at Christ's appearance, they will die (Dn 12:2, Ro 2:6-16, 8:12,13).

There is n

Why does Jude say "twice dead"?


Oops, Paul is teaching Christians about the rules of living before God, so that's not a possible true interpretation.


You need to know our salvation is compared to that of the Jews from Egypt--and just as they sinned and fell under wrath, the same can happen to us. You can read 1 Co 10 for more info.

You probably ought to know the new covenant is by grace and not by performance or law.