Works Complete Faith?

[romans113336]

“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak (ad)what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35 The good man brings out of his good treasure (ae)what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure (af)what is evil. 36 But I tell you that every (ag)careless word that people (ah)speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37 For (ai)by your words you will be justified, and (aj)by your words you will be condemned.”

The heart conditions are explained in the parable of the sower, but we also know that these are not stagnant conditions--eg, Hebrews warns that a believer can depart from God by his heart becoming hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

Here's a verse that says something similar, sounds like a matter of overall behavior rather than one sin equaling condemnation. It's a like a balancing scale, we should try to avoid the things that are sin(condemnation) and do and say the things of righteousness to the best of our ability. Just don't expect it to be what gets you into heaven, or kicks you into hell.

I'm not saying a single sin leads to everlasting condemnation, merely pointing out that justification is not stagnant, but a Christian suffers condemnation for sinning by not walking in faith, and that this is one and the same as what James is saying (he is pushing the believers to not only have faith but also walk in faith).

 

[Truthnightmare]

A believer will not commit that sin.
And good evening brother.

Personally, I don’t think that sin will be committed, especially by believers, just wanted your take.

 

[romans113336]

PERSONALLY, I'm not necessarily a believer in "OSAS" (or "Perseverance of the Saints" to the Calvinists). But I DO believe that the "State of being Born Again's FOUNDATION" is Living FAITH which depends on there being a living relationship with God. By personal experience, I know that a Christian CAN "get busy with other things and NEGLECT their relationship - which causes "LIVING FAITH" to dim, and become the fading memory of HAVING HAD a living relationship. It's also my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE the God does sent "Wake-up calls", sometimes pretty brutal ones, to "GET OUR ATTENTION" before it's too late.

Agreed.

FAITH (Biblical FAITH - Heb 11:1) must come BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE is even possible. For me and many others "CONVOCTION OF SIN and of Judgement from the Holy Spirit was the initial SOURCE of FAITH (God's WORD to you) before I was even Born Again.

Uncontroversial.

Totally incorrect!!! There's NOTHING Biblically that would lead to a conclusion like that. You've expressed the "Jump to the ridicuolus extreme" fallacy. You're STILL HUMAN, and you STILL HAVE A HUMAN NATURE, and paul instructs us to "Crucify the fless, and live in the Spirit instead. That's the progressive process of "Sanctification" (coming into Christian maturity).

That's actually not a fallacy on my part, it's reductio ad absurdum to show the fallacy in your position that "good works invariably flow from true faith". It's just not true--and I've proven it. Good works are worked in us by God, but, also, we are instructed to "obey" that working of God (Php 2:12,13)--it's not one or the other, it's both.
And, to the point of the thread, when a Christian does not obey that working of God, when he does not walk in faith, he is "condemned", meaning that his justification is not stagnant.

CORRECT!! Christians SIN, which has NOTHING TO DO with the Holy Spirit in a Born again person producing GOOD WORKS in them.
If, by this, you mean, "When I sin, it's just my flesh, not my spirit," I would have to differ, because there is no such thing as "sin" except "spiritual enslavement"--every sin involves the spirit because it is the enslavement of the spirit.

Fortunately WHEN we SIN, we have an advocate when we confess our SIN to him.

This is not in the slightest mutually exclusive with anything I've said.

 

[cv5]

Well, you admitted that a Christian could be "condemned", but "condemned" is the opposite adjudication to "justified", so it is you who is contradicting yourself.

The entire Romans 14 chapter speaks to nothing whatsoever of God condemning anybody. For anything.

Those of weak faith will eventually grow up and out of this spiritual immaturity regarding eating. Simple as that.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

To the twelve tribes scattered abroad...context, context, context.

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

This is the good 'ol: "TO THEM, BUT NOT TO US" fallacy, that allows "theologians" to discard scriptures, and make up their OWN Interpretations for scripture that get in the way of their "theology".

Abraham DENOMSTRATED BIBLICAL FAITH by "placing HIS WEIGHT on God's Word, in the CERTAINTY that it would "hold Him" - even in the extreme situation of murdering his own son. Abraham simply demonstrated that what he CALLED FAITH - really WAS FAITH, and not just "Belief".

Paranthetic:

Abraham wasn't ALONE in Faith, since Isaac wasn't a little kid at the time but a fully grown MAN, who could probably have physically overcome his Father, if he didn't have FAITH in God's instructions also.

 

[romans113336]

The entire Romans 14 chapter speaks to nothing whatsoever of God condemning anybody. For anything.

Those of weak faith will eventually grow up and out of this spiritual immaturity regarding eating. Simple as that.

The general rule "let every man be fully convinced in his own mind" is given--and to show the seriousness of that rule, the breaking of that rule constitutes "sin" for which a believer is "condemned".

If you don't accept that, either come up with a better explanation, or else, because of your prior commitments to traditional doctrines, you can just reject it--but at least be forthright about it.

 

[Cameron143]

Personally, I don’t think that sin will be committed, especially by believers, just wanted your take.

There's an argument that can be made that it's not even still possible. The sin involves ascribing Jesus works to Satan and Jesus isn't doing any more works on earth directly. I can go either way on whether it is still possible.

 

[romans113336]

There's an argument that can be made that it's not even still possible. The sin involves ascribing Jesus works to Satan and Jesus isn't doing any more works on earth directly. I can go either way on whether it is still possible.

FWIW I take a similar view.

 

[romans113336]

My last reply got "boogered", so let me offer a clarification :

CORRECT!! Christians SIN, which has NOTHING TO DO with the Holy Spirit in a Born again person producing GOOD WORKS in them.

If, by this, you mean, "When I sin, it's just my flesh, not my spirit," I would have to differ, because there is no such thing as "sin" except "spiritual enslavement"--every sin involves the spirit because it is the enslavement of the spirit.

Fortunately WHEN we SIN, we have an advocate when we confess our SIN to him.

This is not in the slightest mutually exclusive with anything I've said.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

That's actually not a fallacy on my part, it's reductio ad absurdum to show the fallacy in your position that "good works invariably flow from true faith".

SO The book of James is a LIE, then. I disagree.

You and Martin Luther agree on that (the Epistle of STRAW he called it), Philip Melancthon didn't agree, and neither do I.

Of course you've "Proven NOTHING", except that you don't believe "Biblical FAITH" necessarily produces anything of practical value.

 

[romans113336]

SO The book of James is a LIE, then. I disagree.

You and Martin Luther agree on that (the Epistle of STRAW he called it), Philip Melancthon didn't agree, and neither do I.

Of course you've "Proven NOTHING", except that you don't believe "Biblical FAITH" necessarily produces anything of practical value.

I'll have to disagree again: I believe James 2 is calling people who have faith to repent of their "adultery against God" (Ja 4), that's all--"It's good that you have faith, but, now, also walk in that faith". Same thing being addressed in Ro 14:23 and elsewhere.

 

[timemeddler]

Romans 2:6-16 says eternal life will only be repaid to those who do good in this life, and he points to the Gentile believers, on whose hearts God's Law is written (New Covenant promise), and who are "circumcised in the heart by the Spirit" (Ro 2:29), as an example of just such men, so, again, yes, it does pertain to eternal life, and James 2 says the same ("Can such faith save him?").

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. What Christian doesn't seek those things? the rest still sounds to me like rewards and disciplines. The whole section is in context of believers judging other believers. How do you balance your view with the next chapter(Armenian view maybe)?
3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness?

4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
(no one actually meets the standard for justification)
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

[Truthnightmare]

There's an argument that can be made that it's not even still possible. The sin involves ascribing Jesus works to Satan and Jesus isn't doing any more works on earth directly. I can go either way on whether it is still possible.

There is much that can be said, I haven’t come to a conclusion yet, But a few scriodo pop out.

We see that this sin is regarding the 'third part' of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit of God. It is not stated to be one who blasphemes God nor His Christ, but only His Holy Spirit (but they are One And that the 'assault' on that Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin:

We see that it is impossible to find forgiveness for one who has committed this sin — there is no way back for them, no repentance available to them. We also see a little deeper into what the nature of this unforgivable sin is. We see that only believers can commit this sin. We also see it associated with the "falling away," which brings our minds to "...for that day [Second Advent] shall not come, except there come a falling away first...." (II Th 2:3):

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance [no forgiveness]; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God[Jesus Christ AFTER He ascended] afresh, and put him to an open shame. (KJV)​

We see the unhappy state of one who commits this unforgivable sin:

I Jn 5:16-17
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (KJV)​

Ecclesiastes 8
16 I tried to understand all that happens on earth. I saw how busy people are, working day and night and hardly ever sleeping. 17 I also saw all that God has done. Nobody can understand what God does here on earth. No matter how hard people try to understand it, they cannot. Even if wise people say they understand, they cannot; no one can really understand it.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

If, by this, you mean, "When I sin, it's just my flesh, not my spirit," I would have to differ, because there is no such thing as "sin" except "spiritual enslavement"--every sin involves the spirit because it is the enslavement of the spirit.

More "Word games"

OF COURSE "my spirit" (small "s") is involved when I SIN as A CHRISTIAN!!! HIS SPIRIT isn't, since HE WON'T SIN. Problem solved.

Romans 7 is a discussion of this (unless you believe the lie that Paul is speaking of his "unsaved" state in Chapter 7).

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

I'll have to disagree again: I believe James 2 is calling people who have faith to repent of their "adultery against God" (Ja 4), that's all--"It's good that you have faith, but, now, also walk in that faith". Same thing being addressed in Ro 14:23 and elsewhere.

SO the Holy Spirit indwelling you produces NOTHING of practical value.

I disagree.

 

[timemeddler]

For instance, I would read it as "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because they are not being mastered by sin, thus, not keeping God's commands, because those who walk after the Spirit keep God's commands (Ro 8:4)--but, when a person sins, they are not abiding in Christ, thus they suffer condemnation, as 1 Jn 2:28 says 'Abide in Him, so that when He appears, you will not draw back in shame'."

well yeah, all hinges on what condemnation means, greater loss at the refiners fire, hell, heaven, remember a lot of this was written in the context of believers judging other so that must be taken into account.

 

[Cameron143]

There is much that can be said, I haven’t come to a conclusion yet, But a few scriodo pop out.

We see that this sin is regarding the 'third part' of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit of God. It is not stated to be one who blasphemes God nor His Christ, but only His Holy Spirit (but they are One And that the 'assault' on that Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin:

We see that it is impossible to find forgiveness for one who has committed this sin — there is no way back for them, no repentance available to them. We also see a little deeper into what the nature of this unforgivable sin is. We see that only believers can commit this sin. We also see it associated with the "falling away," which brings our minds to "...for that day [Second Advent] shall not come, except there come a falling away first...." (II Th 2:3):

​

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance [no forgiveness]; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God[Jesus Christ AFTER He ascended] afresh, and put him to an open shame. (KJV)

We see the unhappy state of one who commits this unforgivable sin:

​

I Jn 5:16-17
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (KJV)

Ecclesiastes 8
16 I tried to understand all that happens on earth. I saw how busy people are, working day and night and hardly ever sleeping. 17 I also saw all that God has done. Nobody can understand what God does here on earth. No matter how hard people try to understand it, they cannot. Even if wise people say they understand, they cannot; no one can really understand it.

If what you propose is right, then the Pharisees would have had to be believers. They are the audience Jesus is speaking to.

 

[romans113336]

What Christian doesn't seek those things?

It isn't about seeking those things, it's about the other part--the "doing good" part.
What Christian doesn't "do good"? Have you read 1 Co? Rv 2, 3? Ro 8:12,13?

The rest still sounds to me like rewards and disciplines.

If you aren't in the category of those who receive eternal life... eh... you're going to die. If that's "merely rewards and disciplines, not an issue of eternal life", that is quite odd.

The whole section is in context of believers judging other believers.

Yes, the Jewish Christians were looking down their noses at the Gentile Christians.
Paul says "God shows no partiality, like you, but each will be judged by his deeds, and whoever is a doer of good will be justified."
That's my point: justification depends on doing good on that Day--and it seems the same is the case, on account of Ro 14:5,23, in this life. In other words, Christians, yes, are justified by the righteousness of faith, and, also, if they are not walking in faith, but are doing things they doubt, they are condemned (the opposite of justified).

How do you balance your view with the next chapter(Armenian view maybe)?
3What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness?
4Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.

Some of the Jews were unfaithful, but that hasn't prevented God from fulfilling His Word to the remnant through Christ Jesus.

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
(no one actually meets the standard for justification)
24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Yes, we are justified freely by His grace, and, also, Ro 11:17-23, if we do not continue in that kindness, we can be cut off, as Ro 14:23 says, we can be condemned if we do not walk in faith.

 

[romans113336]

well yeah, all hinges on what condemnation means, greater loss at the refiners fire, hell, heaven, remember a lot of this was written in the context of believers judging other so that must be taken into account.

So, am I wrong to think you're actually agreeing with the things I've been saying about Ro 14:23 and Ja 2?

 

[cv5]

The general rule "let every man be fully convinced in his own mind" is given--and to show the seriousness of that rule, the breaking of that rule constitutes "sin" for which a believer is "condemned".

If you don't accept that, either come up with a better explanation, or else, because of your prior commitments to traditional doctrines, you can just reject it--but at least be forthright about it.

The supposed sin of eating or not eating something (that God already ruled you could eat) could get a person condemned to the lake of fire? Ridiculous.