Works Complete Faith?

[romans113336]

...and it is...

The Corinthians where obviously not exhibiting true faith if they were living in sin.

There is no question about whether they had faith.
Paul puts it this way : "purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened". He recognizes they are saints, but that they are sinfully behaving

The better explanation, rather, is my view that it is possible to have faith, but not walk in faith, and that this state leads to condemnation, not maintenance of justification--both in the present, and, more importantly, in the future.

Paul and James agree that their lack of fruit and good works indicates that their faith is not true. It is only by true faith that a man can be justified... and good works will follow as a natural consequence.

See how that works now? Not complicated at all really.

James nowhere addresses true and false faith, he merely admonishes the audience of "adulteresses" (unfaithful to God their husband--he believes they have "true" faith) to repent and walk in faith.
Simple.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I think it covers everyone. But in explaining the Hebrews 6 passage you said it was referring to believers. If only believers can commit the unpardonable sin, the Pharisees would have to be amongst the believers. They were the ones who leveled the charge.

I know what you’re saying… But I also believe the unforgivable sin can only be committed by the elect, who are delivered up to give testimony against Satan (antichrist)

So that would excuse every one there

...and it is...


The Corinthians where obviously not exhibiting true faith if they were living in sin.


Epesians 2 is pretty good text to stick to.


Paul and James agree that their lack of fruit and good works indicates that their faith is not true. It is only by true faith that a man can be justified... and good works will follow as a natural consequence.

See how that works now? Not complicated at all really.

It is only by true faith that a man can be justified... and good works will follow as a natural consequence.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

These people seem to believe (faith) and they believe they have done works. But obviously something’s wrong… What ya think?

 

[oyster67]

James nowhere addresses true and false faith

James 2:
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[oyster67]

These people seem to believe (faith) and they believe they have done works. But obviously something’s wrong… What ya think?

Wishful thinking is all they had. That is neither true belief nor faith unto salvation. Many do good works to be seen and highly esteemed of by other men, for example. Motives matter.

 

[mailmandan]

James 2:
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Amen! In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.

If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) James certainly does address true and false faith.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[mailmandan]

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

These people seem to believe (faith) and they believe they have done works. But obviously something’s wrong… What ya think?

Obviously something's wrong indeed. Jesus never knew these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 which means they were never saved. These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and not in Christ alone. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ - Romans 3:24-28; Philippians 3:9) was still stained with sin.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Instead of Lord, Lord, didn't WE, the correct answer for these many people in Matthew 7:22 would have been Lord, Lord, didn't YOU die for our sins, were buried and rise again the third day to provide for us eternal life? We trust in you alone as the all-sufficient means of our salvation.

In regard to Matthew 7:21-23, (I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church) I read Matthew 7:22 and was astonished! I remember thinking to myself, these many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of the natural man who believes that obtaining salvation is based on works.

 

[John146]

If your faith is weak and pathetic, it obviously is not the gift of God.

I live by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[mailmandan]

That passage does say love is the greatest, but it doesn't say love outlasts faith and hope, it says all three are eternal.

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So, once we are in the presence of the Lord in our resurrected bodies, we will still be hoping for what we already have and can clearly see? Interesting. How does that work?

In regard to hope, this speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

Once we receive eternal life why would we still hope for it? Once we are in the presence of the Lord, we are not still looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. (Titus 2:13) For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? (Romans 8:24) My points that I made in post #55 still stand.

 

[Dino246]

Nope, that's not what I said--and you know that.

Stop slandering me...

STOP IT.

Turnaround is fair play. You get what you give. Suck it up, buttercup.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Obviously something's wrong indeed. Jesus never knew these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 which means they were never saved. These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and not in Christ alone. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ - Romans 3:24-28; Philippians 3:9) was still stained with sin.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Instead of Lord, Lord, didn't WE, the correct answer for these many people in Matthew 7:22 would have been Lord, Lord, didn't YOU die for our sins, were buried and rise again the third day to provide for us eternal life? We trust in you alone as the all-sufficient means of our salvation.

In regard to Matthew 7:21-23, (I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church) I read Matthew 7:22 and was astonished! I remember thinking to myself, these many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of the natural man who believes that obtaining salvation is based on works.

I know salvation is not based on works, I also know the feeling of, how the hell can I compete with men who walked on water and men who fasted for 40 days…. However as part of the body, we are all one. What an inquisitive post you provided.

 

[cv5]

Nope, that's not what I said--and you know that.

Stop slandering me.

You cannot answer the arguments I present, so, instead, you accuse me of something ridiculous, something heretical, something I have denied over and over, because you can only "prove your point true" if you are dishonest and only answer something that is ridiculous, and obviously not what I've said.

Doesn't that bother you? Who are you tricking? Are you tricking yourself? How could you live with yourself knowing you're lying about me? Is that what your version Christianity produces? Sin? See, you are a great example for why people shouldn't believe the way you do.

Even when considering the Jews, and how, despite having been saved, they fell under God's wrath, and didn't inherit the promise made to them, Canaan, they didn't die for a single sin, so how on earth are you continuously arriving at that railing accusation against me? Again, I can only surmise it is because you know you are incapable of addressing the actual arguments I'm making, and, so, you are resorting to deception.

STOP IT.

romans113336 said:
and forfeited the promise (in their case, it was Canaan, in our case, it is eternal life in Christ), because they sinned--

 

[Mem]

Yes, his faith is counted as righteousness, and it resulted in his justification.
However, don't forget he also had "footsteps of faith" (Ro 4).

That walking in faith results in justification (Ja 2).
Also, walking in doubt results in condemnation (Ro 14:23).

The theme of meditation for me this week has emerged as a consideration of the answer to "what is the condemnation of the devil?" and a tributary I've come upon is "what is an 'unclean spirit'?"

It seems your view is inverted from the conclusion that I've reached, that either justification or condemnation will determine that which one walks in.

 

[cv5]

Well....its a good time to brush up on the book of James. The second (maybe first) most misunderstood book in all the NT no doubt.

https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/52919654562847/
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/92212148263/
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/83112127523/

 

[Mem]

The theme of meditation for me this week has emerged as a consideration of the answer to "what is the condemnation of the devil?" and a tributary I've come upon is "what is an 'unclean spirit'?"

It seems your view is inverted from the conclusion that I've reached, that either justification or condemnation will determine that which one walks in.

That is, whether one believes they are justified or that they are condemned, whether clean or unclean, that is the spirit by which they will walk.

 

[Cameron143]

I know what you’re saying… But I also believe the unforgivable sin can only be committed by the elect, who are delivered up to give testimony against Satan (antichrist)

So that would excuse every one there




Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

These people seem to believe (faith) and they believe they have done works. But obviously something’s wrong… What ya think?

Interesting take. There is something definitely wrong with those in the passage you share, but Jesus tells us what it is...I never knew you. In John 17:3 we are told that eternal life is KNOWING the Father and Jesus. This isn't a knowing of facts and information about Them. This is a knowing as in Adam knew his wife. It is experiential and intimate. Those in Matthew 7 did not have this. Their confidence was in the things they did; not the One they knew. I fear, there are many like this today. Christianity is not about doing but about knowing. And in that knowing, we are changed more and more into His likeness.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Interesting take. There is something definitely wrong with those in the passage you share, but Jesus tells us what it is...I never knew you. In John 17:3 we are told that eternal life is KNOWING the Father and Jesus. This isn't a knowing of facts and information about Them. This is a knowing as in Adam knew his wife. It is experiential and intimate. Those in Matthew 7 did not have this. Their confidence was in the things they did; not the One they knew. I fear, there are many like this today. Christianity is not about doing but about knowing. And in that knowing, we are changed more and more into His likeness.

I’ve thought about such, funny how a simple consideration as to who the Lord was talking to in a particular Chp and verse can materialize into a structure of intimacy regarding Adam and Eve… man I got a lot to learn. And I agree, in a very literal sense for as a Christian, with every passing second I become more and more like Him, in knowledge and in time.

 

[evyaniy]

2 Timothy 2

22 Flee from youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace with those who call on the Adonai out of a pure heart. 23 But refuse foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing that they generate strife. 24 The Adonai’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle toward all, able to teach, patient, 25 in gentleness correcting those who oppose him. Perhaps EL may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

 

[mailmandan]

Interesting take. There is something definitely wrong with those in the passage you share, but Jesus tells us what it is...I never knew you. In John 17:3 we are told that eternal life is KNOWING the Father and Jesus. This isn't a knowing of facts and information about Them. This is a knowing as in Adam knew his wife. It is experiential and intimate. Those in Matthew 7 did not have this. Their confidence was in the things they did; not the One they knew. I fear, there are many like this today. Christianity is not about doing but about knowing. And in that knowing, we are changed more and more into His likeness.

Good point. John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge.

 

[Mem]

works are unavoidable, and we will do either works of faith or works of unbelief. So, it is either faith or lack thereof that completes works rather than works completing faith.

 

[Cameron143]

I’ve thought about such, funny how a simple consideration as to who the Lord was talking to in a particular Chp and verse can materialize into a structure of intimacy regarding Adam and Eve… man I got a lot to learn. And I agree, in a very literal sense for as a Christian, with every passing second I become more and more like Him, in knowledge and in time.

We all have a lot of learning to do. If Paul was the chiefest of sinners, then I am the chiefest of dummies.