No more of works?

[John146]

hi! perhaps it sounds like works because you didn't post the whole chapter? if you read the whole thing in context you may be better able to understand the message God is giving?

grace and peace to you

And...care to explain? Why did they stumble? Because Israel was given the law to follow. They were establishing their own righteousness and would not submit to the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ. It never was a "looking forward to the cross" mentality.

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

What are some thoughts on the following passage? "Then is it no more of works." When did grace start? When was it by works?

Interesting phrase implying there was a time of 'faith PLUS works'? Confirmation:

1) Cain "brought the Incorrect 'work' not accepted by God, but:

Abel "brought the Correct 'work' to be accepted by God​

(Genesis 4:3-7 cp Hebrews 11:4 "faith PLUS works" )​

2) House of Israel:

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness,​

and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity​

that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man​

turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and​

doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."​

(Ezekiel 18:26-27)​

3) James, "by faith PLUS works," states to the Twelve tribes (v. 1):

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers​

only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:22)​

​

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and​

have not works? can faith save him?" (James 2:14 cp vs 17, 20 & 26)​

4) Finally, in the future, for Israel:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the​

churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of​

life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." (Revelation 2:7)​

+

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the​

churches; he that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."​

(Revelation 2:11):​

​

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right​

to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."​

(Revelation 22:14)​

Are not all these, As God Has Plainly Taught: "faith PLUS works"?

to be continued "I have decided to follow Jesus?"...

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

"faith PLUS works"? continued: Further Confirmation by:

( God's Context Of ) prophecy/covenant-law Scriptures, Spoken By Christ on earth
To Twelve apostles for the Twelve tribes Israel:

I have decided to Follow ( The earthly ) Jesus?

A) Do I follow Him, and the doctrine He Spoke as The:

Humble Christ, on the earth, To Israel, 12 apostles, Under The Law/covenants
/Prophecy:

1) Repent (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!") or perish
(Luk 13:3,5 Mar 1:4 24:47)
+
2) believe the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23, 9:35, 24:14; Mar 1:14,15)
+
3) be water baptized "For the remission of sin" (Mar 1:4 Luk 3:3, 7:29:30, 24:47;
Act 2:38)
+
4) "show works meet for repentance" (Mat 3:8), because,
+
5) "to the twelve tribes of Israel," "faith Without works is dead"
(James 1:1, 2:17,26)
+
6) "keep the commandments" to "enter life" (Mat 19:17)
+
7) "one thing thou lackest...sell ALL/take up cross/follow Jesus"
(Mar 10:17-23)
+
8) pray as a watchman, for Great Tribulation, man of sin, son of perdition, and
signs of the end times, and Second Coming?

A) Do I follow His earthly prophecy "faith PLUS works" program of covenants and law?
( OT, Mat - John, Heb - Rev ) or:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

B) Do I follow Him As The Risen And Glorified "Head Of His Church" and ask:

I have decided to Follow ( The Heavenly ) LORD Jesus?

And, His Heavenly Pure Grace Program, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery?
(His Doctrine in Romans - Philemon)

Of course, Under God's Other Context Of Grace for The ( Heavenly ) ONE Body
Of Christ, Which began with ( ONE apostle ) Paul, Baptized By The ONE Spirit,
as the first 'member' of the ONE New man...
(Ephesians 2:15; 1 Timothy 1:16; Romans 11:13; Ephesians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13),

...it is ( as Paul states 21 x ) "But Now":

1) Have repentance toward God (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!")
(Acts 20:21)
+
2) Have faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21), and trust/believe The Gospel
Of The Grace Of God: His Death ( ALL-Sufficient Work On The Cross ), Burial, And
Resurrection, According To The Scripture (Ephesians 2:5-9; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
+
3) Acknowledge I am Spiritually Baptized By The ONE Baptism Of The Holy Spirit
Into The ONE (Spiritual Organism) Body Of Christ, Seated In the Heavenlies
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13)
+
4) Acknowledge Christ Is Living in me, so I allow Him to, through me:
+
5) To Fulfil:

All Of His Law, In ONE Word: ►► love ◄◄ thy neighbor
as thyself!" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)
+
6) Study God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided to show myself "Approved Unto God"
(2 Timothy 2:15), and all the rest of these Bible study rules!
+
7) Work with my hands to "give to them in need," and the LORD "shall supply all my need"
(Ephesians 4:28; 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12; 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12; 1 Timothy 5:8)
+
8) Be a humble prayer warrior and:
"...look, watch, and Patiently WAIT For..." = The LORD Jesus Christ!
(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25; 1 Corinthians 1:7;
Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 1:10;
1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13)
+
9) Put on the FULL armour of God and stand, in the spiritual warfare I wrestle with
(Ephesians 6:10-18)
+
10)
Eph 6:19 "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I
may open my mouth boldly, to make known the Mystery Of The Gospel,"
+
11)
Eph 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of The Mystery, which from the
beginning of the world hath been hid in God, Who created all things by Jesus Christ"
+
12) Acknowledge that I am going to give an account at Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15;
Romans 14:12), at my Heavenly Home-Going ( Great GRACE Departure! )

According to these and all the details of God's Sound Doctrinal Blueprint In
Romans Through Philemon? (1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Timothy 4:3; Titus 1:9):

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Or:

C) Do I speak after following the Many, who homogenize A) + B) into
Massive Confusion?

Final question would be: Which Option, Under Grace Today, should I take
To Honor and Glorify God, Who Plainly and Clear Says in Romans 11:6:

"And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise​

Grace is no more Grace. But if it be of works, then is it​

no more Grace: otherwise work is no more work."​

Precious friend(s), thanks again. I appreciate all your prayerful and careful
consideration of this Eternally Important Matter.

Amen.

Extra Related study Bonus:

UnScriptural or UNdispensational?

Conclusion:
Big Difference between "Grace In a dispensation" and

"The ( Current ) Dispensation Of The Grace Of God, eh?

Amen.

 

[Cameron143]

"faith PLUS works"? continued: Further Confirmation by:

( God's Context Of ) prophecy/covenant-law Scriptures, Spoken By Christ on earth
To Twelve apostles for the Twelve tribes Israel:

I have decided to Follow ( The earthly ) Jesus?

A) Do I follow Him, and the doctrine He Spoke as The:

Humble Christ, on the earth, To Israel, 12 apostles, Under The Law/covenants
/Prophecy:

1) Repent (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!") or perish
(Luk 13:3,5 Mar 1:4 24:47)
+
2) believe the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23, 9:35, 24:14; Mar 1:14,15)
+
3) be water baptized "For the remission of sin" (Mar 1:4 Luk 3:3, 7:29:30, 24:47;
Act 2:38)
+
4) "show works meet for repentance" (Mat 3:8), because,
+
5) "to the twelve tribes of Israel," "faith Without works is dead"
(James 1:1, 2:17,26)
+
6) "keep the commandments" to "enter life" (Mat 19:17)
+
7) "one thing thou lackest...sell ALL/take up cross/follow Jesus"
(Mar 10:17-23)
+
8) pray as a watchman, for Great Tribulation, man of sin, son of perdition, and
signs of the end times, and Second Coming?

A) Do I follow His earthly prophecy "faith PLUS works" program of covenants and law?
( OT, Mat - John, Heb - Rev ) or:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

B) Do I follow Him As The Risen And Glorified "Head Of His Church" and ask:

I have decided to Follow ( The Heavenly ) LORD Jesus?

And, His Heavenly Pure Grace Program, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery?
(His Doctrine in Romans - Philemon)

Of course, Under God's Other Context Of Grace for The ( Heavenly ) ONE Body
Of Christ, Which began with ( ONE apostle ) Paul, Baptized By The ONE Spirit,
as the first 'member' of the ONE New man...
(Ephesians 2:15; 1 Timothy 1:16; Romans 11:13; Ephesians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13),

...it is ( as Paul states 21 x ) "But Now":

1) Have repentance toward God (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!")
(Acts 20:21)
+
2) Have faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21), and trust/believe The Gospel
Of The Grace Of God: His Death ( ALL-Sufficient Work On The Cross ), Burial, And
Resurrection, According To The Scripture (Ephesians 2:5-9; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
+
3) Acknowledge I am Spiritually Baptized By The ONE Baptism Of The Holy Spirit
Into The ONE (Spiritual Organism) Body Of Christ, Seated In the Heavenlies
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13)
+
4) Acknowledge Christ Is Living in me, so I allow Him to, through me:
+
5) To Fulfil:

All Of His Law, In ONE Word: ►► love ◄◄ thy neighbor
as thyself!" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)
+
6) Study God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided to show myself "Approved Unto God"
(2 Timothy 2:15), and all the rest of these Bible study rules!
+
7) Work with my hands to "give to them in need," and the LORD "shall supply all my need"
(Ephesians 4:28; 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12; 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12; 1 Timothy 5:8)
+
8) Be a humble prayer warrior and:
"...look, watch, and Patiently WAIT For..." = The LORD Jesus Christ!
(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25; 1 Corinthians 1:7;
Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 1:10;
1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13)
+
9) Put on the FULL armour of God and stand, in the spiritual warfare I wrestle with
(Ephesians 6:10-18)
+
10)
Eph 6:19 "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I
may open my mouth boldly, to make known the Mystery Of The Gospel,"
+
11)
Eph 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of The Mystery, which from the
beginning of the world hath been hid in God, Who created all things by Jesus Christ"
+
12) Acknowledge that I am going to give an account at Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15;
Romans 14:12), at my Heavenly Home-Going ( Great GRACE Departure! )

According to these and all the details of God's Sound Doctrinal Blueprint In
Romans Through Philemon? (1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Timothy 4:3; Titus 1:9):

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Or:

C) Do I speak after following the Many, who homogenize A) + B) into
Massive Confusion?

Final question would be: Which Option, Under Grace Today, should I take
To Honor and Glorify God, Who Plainly and Clear Says in Romans 11:6:

"And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise​

Grace is no more Grace. But if it be of works, then is it​

no more Grace: otherwise work is no more work."​

Precious friend(s), thanks again. I appreciate all your prayerful and careful
consideration of this Eternally Important Matter.

Amen.

Extra Related study Bonus:

UnScriptural or UNdispensational?

Conclusion:
Big Difference between "Grace In a dispensation" and

"The ( Current ) Dispensation Of The Grace Of God, eh?

Amen.

Can you in a few sentences and in your own words sum up what you are saying?

 

[proutled]

Hello every one, no works ,mmmm works is trying to self keeping the law, then Jesus died on the cross, then the age grace, now we have been redeemed now we have the holy spirit living in side of us, so NOW we do works But though faith, faith with out works is dead, now we can do all things in Christ Jesus who strengths me, not only can you and me do the law, we can rise above the law, Jesus said not only do not commit adultery, BUT IF YOU even look with lust ,you have sinned, with your heart, so we can over come the world, though the blood and the power of the holy spirit, and his word, this is Gods grace, to help us ,because of his love and mercy his part is his grace our part is for us to us our faith in Jesus,

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Can you in a few sentences and in your own words sum up what you are saying?

Sure thing, simply:

God Made, According to Prophecy, Covenants of "faith Plus works" for
His Nation of Israel (OT, Mat-Joh, Heb-Rev)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

God Has, According to 'The Revelation Of The Mystery,' Pure Grace For
The Body Of Christ (Romans Through Philemon)

Amen.

 

[Cameron143]

Sure thing, simply:

God Made, According to Prophecy, Covenants of "faith Plus works" for
His Nation of Israel (OT, Mat-Joh, Heb-Rev)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

God Has, According to 'The Revelation Of The Mystery,' Pure Grace For
The Body Of Christ (Romans Through Philemon)

Amen.

I appreciate the clarification.

 

[notmyown]

And...care to explain? Why did they stumble? Because Israel was given the law to follow. They were establishing their own righteousness and would not submit to the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ. It never was a "looking forward to the cross" mentality.

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

hey, John... i thought we were talking about Ezekiel 18, which is the chapter from which you pulled 2 sections and commented it sounded like works (were beneficial in terms of salvation, i understood you to mean).

that's the chapter i was referencing. if you like, you can go back to see that post. if you don't like, that's fine, too.

 

[John146]

hey, John... i thought we were talking about Ezekiel 18, which is the chapter from which you pulled 2 sections and commented it sounded like works (were beneficial in terms of salvation, i understood you to mean).

that's the chapter i was referencing. if you like, you can go back to see that post. if you don't like, that's fine, too.

My view is and always has been that the OT saints did not have salvation as we have it today. I believe that only through the shed blood of Jesus Christ can one have forgiveness of sins and everlasting life. Those OT saints did not have that available yet. What they were called to do is to be obedient to whatever God's word was at their time in human history, which did not lead them to salvation, but safety from hell, being held in captivity in Abraham's bosom.

 

[Magenta]

What I am advocating is that we've got something better than those OT saints. We have the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
I believe that salvation was not even possible for them, therefore, when they died, they slept in Abraham's bosom.

I largely agree with what you are saying here, and yet Job, for instance (and for starters) knew that
salvation was more than just a possibility for him, for it was a reality. And surely we do also know
that those of faith in the OT were counted as righteous... even David, who as we know, was a
murderer and an adulterer. David, a man after God's own heart, and the apple of His eye.

Job 19:25-27a

Job 33:27b-28~ I have sinned and perverted what was right; yet I did not get what I deserved. He redeemed my soul from going down to the Pit, and I will live to see the Light.

 

[Mem]

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Even so-then-at this present time-also-there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Is it possible to reconstruct this sentence so that it doesn't lose its meaning?

Even so then there is a remnant according to the election of grace at this present time also.

 

[Mem]

And...care to explain? Why did they stumble? Because Israel was given the law to follow. They were establishing their own righteousness and would not submit to the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ. It never was a "looking forward to the cross" mentality.

A better question would be when did they stumble? Especially considering the law wasn't "the stumbling block."
*hint: Abraham did not stumble

 

[rogerg]

Those OT saints did not have that available yet. What they were called to do is to be obedient to whatever God's word was at their time in human history, which did not lead them to salvation, but safety from hell, being held in captivity in Abraham's bosom.

Just curious - are you saying that you believe they were brought to Abraham's bosom because of an obedience to their understanding of God's word; that is, it was by their knowledge and by their actions?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

A better question would be when did they stumble? Especially considering the law wasn't "the stumbling block."

So then, was the command to "Repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of sins,,," their 'stumbling block,' or was it their fall?

 

[John146]

Just curious - are you saying that you believe they were brought to Abraham's bosom because of an obedience to their understanding of God's word; that is, it was by their knowledge and by their actions?

Exactly! But we have something better than they. We now have the knowledge of Christ’s death for our sins and his resurrection. We are to believe in the shed blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and we are given everlasting life.

 

[rogerg]

Exactly! But we have something better than they. We now have the knowledge of Christ’s death for our sins and his resurrection. We are to believe in the shed blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and we are given everlasting life.

Hmmm, okay, don't agree, but thanks for the answer.

 

[Mem]

So then, was the command to "Repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of sins,,," their 'stumbling block,' or was it their fall?

When I enter "repent and be baptized" into the search field of BibleHub, the only entry retrieved is acts 2:38, as soon as I enter "for the remission of sins" omitting "in the name of Jesus," there is nothing.
1 Cor 10 tells us the answer to my question, regarding Israel's baptism into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. And in 1 Cor 1, Paul says no one can say that they were baptized into his name, even though he baptized Crispus and Gaius. The stone of stumbling set before them was/is Christ, and they fell in the wilderness, which is before they received the law.

Warnings from Israel’s Past
(Numbers 16:41–50; Numbers 25:1–5)
1I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

They did not trust in the grace of God. Those that fully trust in Him are baptized in His Name, with neither water nor cloud necessary. He is living water and He was the cloud that led them.

 

[Magenta]

And...care to explain? Why did they stumble? Because Israel was given the law to follow.
They were establishing their own righteousness and would not submit to the righteousness
of God through Jesus Christ. It never was a "looking forward to the cross" mentality.

They ignored the weightier parts of the law: justice and mercy and faith.

Matthew 9:13 ~ I desire mercy, not sacrifice.

 

[notmyown]

A better question would be when did they stumble? Especially considering the law wasn't "the stumbling block."
*hint: Abraham did not stumble

good question! when in doubt, keep reading.

v 32-
as it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling
and a rock of offense;
and the one who believes in Him
will never be put to shame.”

there Paul quotes Isaiah 28:16, speaking of the Lord Jesus. you can't pursue Him by law, but by faith in God's promise.
it's early, so i hope that made some kinda sense.

 

[rogerg]

good question! when in doubt, keep reading.

v 32-
as it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling
and a rock of offense;
and the one who believes in Him
will never be put to shame.”

there Paul quotes Isaiah 28:16, speaking of the Lord Jesus. you can't pursue Him by law, but by faith in God's promise.
it's early, so i hope that made some kinda sense.

I could be wrong (and might not explain it clearly), but it seems to me it is God's promise that pursues us into faith, and not that faith pursues us into His promise. Were we required to pursue His promise by our faith, then that would mean we were still under the requirements of law, and therefore, trying to satisfy law.

[1Pe 2:7-9 KJV]
7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: