No more of works?

[rogerg]

Yes, in Deuteronomy 30:11-16, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and obedience to it brings life, and Romans 10:5-8 references that passage as the word of faith that we proclaim. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome.

In Deuteronomy 32:46-47, God's law is our very life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that obedience to God's commandments is the way to enter eternal life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that obedience to the greatest two commandments is the way to inherit eternal life. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him. In Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments will be given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Proverbs 3:18, it is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it. In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so living in obedience to God's law is the content of His gift of eternal life.

God's law is to trust in His Son as Saviour, however, no one can do so until, unless, and by, first becoming saved.
The Old Testament laws were invalidated in Christ.

[Heb 7:12, 18 KJV] 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

 

[Soyeong]

So, it is only through our obedience that we obtain eternal life?

Eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience. The Hebrew word "yada" refers to relational knowledge gained through experience, such as in Genesis 4:1, Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God's way is the way in which He practices aspect of His nature such as righteousness and justice (Genesis 18:19), in Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him him to walk in His way that he might know (yada) Him and Israel too, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know (yada) God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken His law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so the way to know God is by delighting in practicing those and other aspects of His nature in obedience to His law, which is also the way to know the Son because he is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey His commands are liars, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of God's law have never seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them. So knowing God through practicing His nature is the only way to experience eternal life, which has nothing to do with earning eternal life as a wage. Getting to practice aspects of God's nature in obedience to His law is the content of His gift of eternal life, not the way to earn eternal life from God.

 

[Soyeong]

Read further down to 2:14. It informs us there, that those for whom He gave Himself - those whom He redeemed (saved) - were redeemed from "all iniquity" (sin), through which redeeming, Christ makes those whom He saves to become "zealous" (or filled with a burning zeal) to perform good works' ; that is, good works can only come as a result of, and from, redemption (or salvation) by Christ - it cannot come by man. Based upon that, we can see that to make one zealous for good works, they must first have been saved by Christ, however, those good works are good only according to God's standards, not by man's.

[Tit 2:14 KJV] 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.



No, if given as a gift, we can have absolutely no participation in our receiving salvation, otherwise, it wouldn't be a gift.
Look again at the verses I posted previously. I'll post again here:

[Tit 3:4-6 KJV]
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Do you see the "not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved us", part?
That clearly tells us salvation is by/from God alone from its beginning to its end, with no participation by man either needed nor permitted.



As with all attributes of salvation, the above comes from it, but it is not to it.

QUOTE="Soyeong, post: 5168594, member: 326808"]I agree that nothing that we do results in earning our salvation primarily because God's law was never given as a way of earning our salvation even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal of why we should obey it.

You're saying that you agree there is nothing whatsoever a man can do to contribute to his salvation - that it is given
solely as a gift of God?

If a professional musician were to train someone in how to play an instrument as a free gift to them, then that gift would require them to do the work of participating in that training in order to have that experience, but doing that work would not detract from the fact that it training was completely given to them as a gift. If I gave someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, then that gift would require them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but doing that work would not detract from the fact that the opportunity was completely given to them as a gift. So the fact that something is completely given as a gift does not mean that it does not require our participation, and the content of God's gift of eternal life does require our participation in order to have that experience. Our participation is about what we need to do to have that experience, not about contributing something to help earn the gift.

In Titus 3:4-6, it is denying that we earn our salvation as the result of our works, but is not denying that our salvation requires our participation in order to have that experience.

 

[Cameron143]

Eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience. The Hebrew word "yada" refers to relational knowledge gained through experience, such as in Genesis 4:1, Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God's way is the way in which He practices aspect of His nature such as righteousness and justice (Genesis 18:19), in Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him him to walk in His way that he might know (yada) Him and Israel too, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know (yada) God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken His law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so the way to know God is by delighting in practicing those and other aspects of His nature in obedience to His law, which is also the way to know the Son because he is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey His commands are liars, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of God's law have never seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them. So knowing God through practicing His nature is the only way to experience eternal life, which has nothing to do with earning eternal life as a wage. Getting to practice aspects of God's nature in obedience to His law is the content of His gift of eternal life, not the way to earn eternal life from God.

You add to scripture. Eternal life is knowing God and Christ. But it doesn't come through the law, but by grace. We are justified by Jesus' righteousness, not our own. It is impossible for anyone to achieve the righteousness which is by the law...for by the law no flesh shall be justified.
I'm curious. Do you believe an individual can achieve sinless perfection in this life?

 

[Soyeong]

You add to scripture. Eternal life is knowing God and Christ. But it doesn't come through the law, but by grace.

I based what I said on said on Scripture, so I don't see how you can accuse me of adding to it. In John 17:3, it states that eternal life is knowing God and Christ. I've cited many verses that support that eternal life comes by obeying God's law, such as in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, in Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that obedience to the greatest two commandments is the way to inherit eternal life (something that we inherit is received as a gift, not earned as a wage), and in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal life for those who obey him.

The fact that eternal life comes by grace does not mean that it does not come by the law because God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law (Psalms 119:29, Exodus 33:13, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14).

We are justified by Jesus' righteousness, not our own. It is impossible for anyone to achieve the righteousness which is by the law...for by the law no flesh shall be justified.

I'm curious. Do you believe an individual can achieve sinless perfection in this life?

No, God's law was never given as a way of earning our own righteousness even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal of why we should obey it, yet Paul also said that only doers of the law will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage.

The only way to become someone who has a character trait is through faith that we ought to be someone who practices it apart from being required to have first practiced it a certain amount as if it could be earned as a wage. Becoming someone who has a character trait means becoming someone who practices it, and it is contradictory to become someone who has a character trait apart from becoming someone who practices it.

For example, the only way to become someone who is courageous is through faith that we ought to be someone who practices courageousness apart from being required to have first practiced courageousness a certain amount as if it could be earned as a wage. Becoming someone who is courageous means becoming someone who practices courageousness and it is contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming someone who practices courageousness. The same is true of becoming righteous, which is by the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from being required to have first practiced righteousness does not abolish our need to practice righteousness in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous. For example, God's law reveals that helping the poor is a way to practice righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the only way to become righteous is through faith. So when God declares us to be righteous through faith that means that He is declaring us to be someone who practices righteousness through faith in accordance with following Christ's example of obedience to God's law.

When we believe that we ought to orientate our life towards becoming someone who practices the character traits of the God of Israel, then that is what it means to believe in and submit to Him as God, and by doing that we are testify about who the nature of who He is. For example, our good works in obedience to God's law testify about God's goodness, which is why doing them is about bringing glory to Him (Matthew 5:16) and not about establishing our own goodness. Moreover, by testing about God's goodness, we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him, and it is by that faith that we are saved. By having the experience of getting practice holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and other aspects of God's nature in obedience to God's law, we are experientially knowing God, and that experience is the content of His gift of eternal life, which has nothing to do with needing to have sinless obedience or with earning anything as a wage.

 

[rogerg]

If a professional musician were to train someone in how to play an instrument as a free gift to them, then that gift would require them to do the work of participating in that training in order to have that experience, but doing that work would not detract from the fact that it training was completely given to them as a gift. If I gave someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, then that gift would require them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but doing that work would not detract from the fact that the opportunity was completely given to them as a gift. So the fact that something is completely given as a gift does not mean that it does not require our participation, and the content of God's gift of eternal life does require our participation in order to have that experience. Our participation is about what we need to do to have that experience, not about contributing something to help earn the gift.

In Titus 3:4-6, it is denying that we earn our salvation as the result of our works, but is not denying that our salvation requires our participation in order to have that experience.

I don't understand what you mean by "have that experience" as it doesn't seem to apply to being saved? Titus 3:4-6 says exactly that salvation is by God alone: salvation is binary: it either happens fully to someone, or it does not - no middle ground nor training is involved - it is solely and completely God's work not man's; that is, it is not possible to be a little bit saved; salvation occurs on the spiritual level not the physical level. However, (only) after becoming saved, will we grow in the knowledge and belief of Christ and of salvation, but those aren't of our part to become saved, they're outgrowths that comes from it- God has already done the saving and has done so to the full. Unless first saved, no one can grow in it because they will not have been given a renewed mind for spiritual understanding, and therefore, their belief and trust can only be in themselves and in their works, and not in God's works or grace through Christ,

 

[rogerg]

No, God's law was never given as a way of earning our own righteousness even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal of why we should obey it, yet Paul also said that only doers of the law will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage.

I think you have the wrong law in view. The law to be followed is the law of liberty. All other laws regarding salvation are null and void through Christ. The Bible explains this in Jam 1:25. Notice that those who "continueth" in the law of liberty alone are those who are the doers, and that they will be blessed. The law of liberty is manifested in that those saved who through salvation, were made free from the law of works, and so they want no part in/of it but only in Christ alone. To believe we have to do something or to contribute anything to our salvation means that we are not under the law of liberty but are under the law of works, and therefore, it means that have not been saved. If not chosen by God, there is nothing a man can do to place themselves under the law of liberty, or if chosen by God, there is nothing a man can do to keep themselves from the law of liberty.

[Jas 1:25 KJV] 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[Soyeong]

God's law is to trust in His Son as Saviour, however, no one can do so until, unless, and by, first becoming saved.
The Old Testament laws were invalidated in Christ.[/iquote]

The Son is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so the way to believe in the Son is by following his example. For example, by doing good works in obedience to God's law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by doing that we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him. We can't see the Father, but if holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and all of the other invisible character traits of the Father were personified into a body that we can see, then that would be the Son, and the way to trust the Son is by practicing those traits through following his example. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting His instructions, and it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God for salvation, but not in His instructions. In other words, obeying word is the way to trust in God's word made flesh. The only way that instructions for how to testify about God's nature can be abolish is by first abolishing God.

[Heb 7:12, 18 KJV] 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of His instructions for how to testify about His righteousness are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), and if those instructions were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. So Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery or sinful to help the poor, but rather the context is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would also require a change of the law in regard to its administration.

I think you have the wrong law in view. The law to be followed is the law of liberty. All other laws regarding salvation are null and void through Christ. The Bible explains this in Jam 1:25. Notice that those who "continueth" in the law of liberty alone are those who are the doers, and that they will be blessed. The law of liberty is manifested in that those saved who through salvation, were made free from the law of works, and so they want no part in/of it but only in Christ alone. To believe we have to do something or to contribute anything to our salvation means that we are not under the law of liberty but are under the law of works, and therefore, it means that have not been saved. If not chosen by God, there is nothing a man can do to place themselves under the law of liberty, or if chosen by God, there is nothing a man can do to keep themselves from the law of liberty.

[Jas 1:25 KJV] 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

In Psalms 19:7, the Mosaic Law is perfect, in Psalms 119:45, it is a law of liberty, and in Psalms 119:1-3, it blesses those who obey it, so when James 1:25 speaks about a perfect law of liberty that blesses those who obey it, he was not saying anything about the Mosaic Law that wasn't already said in the Psalms. It is contradictory to want to follow God's word made flesh instead of following God's word, but rather obediently relying on God's word alone is the way to rely on God's word made flesh alone.

 

[Soyeong]

I don't understand what you mean by "have that experience" as it doesn't seem to apply to being saved? Titus 3:4-6 says exactly that salvation is by God alone: salvation is binary: it either happens fully to someone, or it does not - no middle ground nor training is involved - it is solely and completely God's work not man's; that is, it is not possible to be a little bit saved; salvation occurs on the spiritual level not the physical level. However, (only) after becoming saved, will we grow in the knowledge and belief of Christ and of salvation, but those aren't of our part to become saved, they're outgrowths that comes from it- God has already done the saving and has done so to the full. Unless first saved, no one can grow in it because they will not have been given a renewed mind for spiritual understanding, and therefore, their belief and trust can only be in themselves and in their works, and not in God's works or grace through Christ,

Knowing God is an experience, such as a man having a relationship with his wife is an experience. God has given instructions for how to experience knowing Him through testifying about His nature. In Titus 3:4-6, it denies that we need to have first done works in order to become saved, but it does not deny that God saving us from living in transgression of God's law involves being Him leading us to live in obedience to it. Our salvation would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so our salvation must also include being saved from continuing to live in sin, which involves our participation. You're still failing to recognize the content of what God's gift of salvation is.

In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong by obeying what He has instructed in all of our ways and He will make our way straight, and this is what it means to have faith. It is contradictory to think that we are trusting in ourselves by trusting in what God has instructed, but rather trusting in what God has instructed is the way to trust God.

 

[rogerg]

God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of His instructions for how to testify about His righteousness are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), and if those instructions were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. So Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery or sinful to help the poor, but rather the context is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would also require a change of the law in regard to its administration.

What does "how to testify" mean? We are to testify about Christ as Saviour, that is how we are to testify. God righteousness is not through works of law but by the faith of Christ. Christ is at the center of all laws which therefore have become/are satisfied by Him. Observe:

[Jhn 5:39 KJV] 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Christ's salvation is greater than our sin. Should we sin? No, but neither do they affect our salvation. Do you think that
King David remained saved? He committed many temporal sins, yet regardless of them he remained saved. Why?
Because it was God's will that he be saved.

In Psalms 19:7, the Mosaic Law is perfect, in Psalms 119:45, it is a law of liberty, and in Psalms 119:1-3, it blesses those who obey it, so when James 1:25 speaks about a perfect law of liberty that blesses those who obey it, he was not saying anything about the Mosaic Law that wasn't already said in the Psalms. It is contradictory to want to follow God's word made flesh instead of following God's word, but rather obediently relying on God's word alone is the way to rely on God's word made flesh alone.

You are inferring things into the Bible that aren't stated therein. When in Hebrews we are informed of a new priesthood (Christ),
then by it, ALL other laws, laws pertaining to the old priesthood (Mosaic laws) - those laws understood to be ends in and of themselves, were satisfied in/by Christ. There is/was only one "perfect" eternal law, and that law is in salvation through Christ. Observe the below. Do you see there are but two laws regarding salvation? One law is the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus; the other law is the law of sin and death. Only the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus can free someone from the law of sin and death. No other laws are pertinent to salvation. It is God alone who moves those He has chosen from the one law to the other upon salvation.

[Rom 8:2-3 KJV] 2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 

[rogerg]

Knowing God is an experience, such as a man having a relationship with his wife is an experience. God has given instructions for how to experience knowing Him through testifying about His nature. In Titus 3:4-6, it denies that we need to have first done works in order to become saved, but it does not deny that God saving us from living in transgression of God's law involves being Him leading us to live in obedience to it. Our salvation would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so our salvation must also include being saved from continuing to live in sin, which involves our participation. You're still failing to recognize the content of what God's gift of salvation is.

In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong by obeying what He has instructed in all of our ways and He will make our way straight, and this is what it means to have faith. It is contradictory to think that we are trusting in ourselves by trusting in what God has instructed, but rather trusting in what God has instructed is the way to trust God.

Only those saved who have been made alive in Christ can know God or the things of God. The unsaved have no choice available to them because they are dead spiritually in sin - a spiritually dead person is oblivious to the things of the Spirit just as a physically dead person is oblivious to things physical - they must first be made spiritually alive by God to have knowledge of God. God did not use the words "dead in trespasses and sins" (below) casually or as a figure of speech - He meant dead, dead. Observe:

[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Also observe that to know the things of the God, we must first be indwelled by His Spirit. This only happens as a result of salvation, not before. Consequently, if someone is not saved, the things of God will be unknown to them.

[1Co 2:12, 14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. ...
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Cameron143]

I based what I said on said on Scripture, so I don't see how you can accuse me of adding to it. In John 17:3, it states that eternal life is knowing God and Christ. I've cited many verses that support that eternal life comes by obeying God's law, such as in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, in Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that obedience to the greatest two commandments is the way to inherit eternal life (something that we inherit is received as a gift, not earned as a wage), and in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal life for those who obey him.

The fact that eternal life comes by grace does not mean that it does not come by the law because God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law (Psalms 119:29, Exodus 33:13, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14).



No, God's law was never given as a way of earning our own righteousness even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal of why we should obey it, yet Paul also said that only doers of the law will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage.

The only way to become someone who has a character trait is through faith that we ought to be someone who practices it apart from being required to have first practiced it a certain amount as if it could be earned as a wage. Becoming someone who has a character trait means becoming someone who practices it, and it is contradictory to become someone who has a character trait apart from becoming someone who practices it.

For example, the only way to become someone who is courageous is through faith that we ought to be someone who practices courageousness apart from being required to have first practiced courageousness a certain amount as if it could be earned as a wage. Becoming someone who is courageous means becoming someone who practices courageousness and it is contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming someone who practices courageousness. The same is true of becoming righteous, which is by the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from being required to have first practiced righteousness does not abolish our need to practice righteousness in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous. For example, God's law reveals that helping the poor is a way to practice righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the only way to become righteous is through faith. So when God declares us to be righteous through faith that means that He is declaring us to be someone who practices righteousness through faith in accordance with following Christ's example of obedience to God's law.

When we believe that we ought to orientate our life towards becoming someone who practices the character traits of the God of Israel, then that is what it means to believe in and submit to Him as God, and by doing that we are testify about who the nature of who He is. For example, our good works in obedience to God's law testify about God's goodness, which is why doing them is about bringing glory to Him (Matthew 5:16) and not about establishing our own goodness. Moreover, by testing about God's goodness, we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him, and it is by that faith that we are saved. By having the experience of getting practice holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and other aspects of God's nature in obedience to God's law, we are experientially knowing God, and that experience is the content of His gift of eternal life, which has nothing to do with needing to have sinless obedience or with earning anything as a wage.

And I explained that through works of the law no one is justified...Galatians 2:16. This negates any possibility of gaining eternal life through our efforts. This is what you have added.

 

[Soyeong]

And I explained that through works of the law no one is justified...Galatians 2:16. This negates any possibility of gaining eternal life through our efforts. This is what you have added.

While I agree that there are no works that we are required to do first in order to become justified as the result (Romans 4:1-5), that does not mean that our justification does not require us choose to be doers of God's law (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of God's law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31). The same of true of eternal life, so I agree that we do not gain eternal life through our own efforts, yet it is also true that Jesus said obedience to God's law is the way to enter eternal life, so there must be a reason why our eternal life requires us to choose to be a doer of the law other than in order to gain it through our own efforts.

In other words, becoming someone who will be justified, someone who is a doer of the law, and someone who has faith all happen at the same time, anyone who is no one of these is also not the others, and we do not become justified as the result of having first been a doers of the law.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage as the result of having first obeyed God (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 13:10

 

[Cameron143]

While I agree that there are no works that we are required to do first in order to become justified as the result (Romans 4:1-5), that does not mean that our justification does not require us choose to be doers of God's law (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of God's law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31). The same of true of eternal life, so I agree that we do not gain eternal life through our own efforts, yet it is also true that Jesus said obedience to God's law is the way to enter eternal life, so there must be a reason why our eternal life requires us to choose to be a doer of the law other than in order to gain it through our own efforts.

In other words, becoming someone who will be justified, someone who is a doer of the law, and someone who has faith all happen at the same time, anyone who is no one of these is also not the others, and we do not become justified as the result of having first been a doers of the law.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage as the result of having first obeyed God (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

Actually it means once we are justified, the Holy Spirit indwells us and then Titus 2:11-13 takes place.

 

[Soyeong]

Actually it means once we are justified, the Holy Spirit indwells us and then Titus 2:11-13 takes place.

James states that Abraham was justified by his works, so there is a sense that we are justified by our works, though not in order to earn it as a wage.

 

[Cameron143]

James states that Abraham was justified by his works, so there is a sense that we are justified by our works, though not in order to earn it as a wage.

James agrees with Paul. Works evidence the existence of faith, but don't produce it.

 

[rogerg]

James states that Abraham was justified by his works, so there is a sense that we are justified by our works, though not in order to earn it as a wage.

No, he (and we), are justified by Christ's faith and works, not our works - Christ is the "his" of your post above. In verse Jas 2:18,, we can see that it is Christ is who is represented by the "a man". IOW, Christ is teaching that if someone claims to have perfect faith of themselves, then of themselves, they'd better have perfect works too, neither of which can any man have - both being required, and without both, faith alone is meaningless. Christ was the only one who could, and did, perfectly embody both - His works necessary as part of His faith to secure salvation for us. The works of Christ are evidence by His successful offering for sin. By God and through the Holy Spirit, for those saved, Christ's faith (with His works), becomes imputed to them, and from which, it is then reflected in their actions. Those saved do perform good works, but it is only because the source was Christ. Notice in Rom 4:9, that "faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness". That faith being Christ's faith (and works) which obviously could not be from Abraham.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Jas 2:18 KJV] 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

[Soyeong]

What does "how to testify" mean? We are to testify about Christ as Saviour, that is how we are to testify. God righteousness is not through works of law but by the faith of Christ. Christ is at the center of all laws which therefore have become/are satisfied by Him. Observe:

[Jhn 5:39 KJV] 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Christ's salvation is greater than our sin. Should we sin? No, but neither do they affect our salvation. Do you think that
King David remained saved? He committed many temporal sins, yet regardless of them he remained saved. Why?
Because it was God's will that he be saved.

The laws that someone choses to give paint us a picture of their character, so we see that someone is wise by seeing that they have given wise laws, we see that someone is foolish by seeing that they have given foolish laws, and so forth, and a wise person does not give stupid laws. So if I were describing the character of the God of Israel to someone, then I could show them the Mosaic Law, and they could from that that He is wise, holy, righteous, good, just, merciful, faithful, loving, and so forth, and by obeying those laws, I would be testifying about the character of the God of Israel, for example, by doing good works, I would be testifying about His goodness, which is why they give glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), which is also the way to have faith in God's goodness. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of His nature (Hebrews 1:3), so in the same manner that everything in Scripture testifies about Father's character traits, it also testifies about those of the Son, and so the way to experientially know the Father and the Son is through delighting in practicing His character traits, which is eternal life (John 17:3), and God's law is His instructions for how to do that (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23).

In regard to John 5:39, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28), so eternal life can be found in the Scriptures and the Pharisees were correct to search for it there, but they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in Scripture is to testify about how know Christ by practicing his character traits and enter into a relationship with Him in order to have eternal life. Christ is our savior from sin and sin is living in a way that is contrary to God's character, so he is saving us from sin by leading us to live in the way that testifies about His character in obedience to His law.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of using it as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so they were missing the goal of the law by neglecting to practice character traits of God that His law was given to teach us how to practice. In Philippine 3:8, Paul had been in the same situation, where he had been obeying God's law while neglecting to know Jesus through practicing his character traits, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and that is what he counted as rubbish. David was saved because he had faith in God's character.

You are inferring things into the Bible that aren't stated therein. When in Hebrews we are informed of a new priesthood (Christ),
then by it, ALL other laws, laws pertaining to the old priesthood (Mosaic laws) - those laws understood to be ends in and of themselves, were satisfied in/by Christ. There is/was only one "perfect" eternal law, and that law is in salvation through Christ. Observe the below. Do you see there are but two laws regarding salvation? One law is the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus; the other law is the law of sin and death. Only the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus can free someone from the law of sin and death. No other laws are pertinent to salvation. It is God alone who moves those He has chosen from the one law to the other upon salvation.

The New Covenant is still made with the same God with the same character traits and therefore the same instructions for how to testify about His character traits. For example, God's righteousness is eternal, so any instructions that He has ever given for how to testify about His righteousness are eternally valid, and if those instructions were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. Sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), which was people could act in a way that was contrary to God's character before they had been instructed not to do that, so there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, and this will never change.

This is also true for other aspects of God's eternal character that the law was given to teach us how to practice, for example, God's holiness is eternal, therefore the way to be holy as He is holy is also eternal (1 Peter 1:16, Leviticus 11:44-45). By following God's eternal instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, we are testifying that the God of Israel is holy and by refusing to follow those instructions, someone is bearing false witness against the God of Israel by testifying that He is not holy.

[Rom 8:2-3 KJV] 2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

In Romans 7:25-8:3, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and dead, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit of Life, after all the Law of God was given by God and the Spirit is God. Moreover, in Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God, and the Law of Moses is directly referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23. Christ is the embodiment of God's character traits, which he practiced by setting a sinless example of obedience to the Law of Moses, so the only way to have salvation through faith in him is by us choosing to embody God's character traits through following his example.

 

[Soyeong]

Only those saved who have been made alive in Christ can know God or the things of God. The unsaved have no choice available to them because they are dead spiritually in sin - a spiritually dead person is oblivious to the things of the Spirit just as a physically dead person is oblivious to things physical - they must first be made spiritually alive by God to have knowledge of God. God did not use the words "dead in trespasses and sins" (below) casually or as a figure of speech - He meant dead, dead. Observe:

[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Also observe that to know the things of the God, we must first be indwelled by His Spirit. This only happens as a result of salvation, not before. Consequently, if someone is not saved, the things of God will be unknown to them.

[1Co 2:12, 14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. ...
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

There is an aspect of our salvation that is ongoing in the present where we are being saved from continuing to live in sin by being led to live in accordance with God's character (Philippians 2:12, Titus 2:11-14). Practicing God's character traits is practicing the fruit of the Spirit, which is how God is saving us from not practicing the fruits of the Spirit.

No, he (and we), are justified by Christ's faith and works, not our works - Christ is the "his" of your post above. In verse Jas 2:18,, we can see that it is Christ is who is represented by the "a man". IOW, Christ is teaching that if someone claims to have perfect faith of themselves, then of themselves, they'd better have perfect works too, neither of which can any man have - both being required, and without both, faith alone is meaningless. Christ was the only one who could, and did, perfectly embody both - His works necessary as part of His faith to secure salvation for us. The works of Christ are evidence by His successful offering for sin. By God and through the Holy Spirit, for those saved, Christ's faith (with His works), becomes imputed to them, and from which, it is then reflected in their actions. Those saved do perform good works, but it is only because the source was Christ. Notice in Rom 4:9, that "faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness". That faith being Christ's faith (and works) which obviously could not be from Abraham.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Jas 2:18 KJV] 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:18-23 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I don't see any room for you to try to insert that the above passage is speaking about Christ's faith and works instead, but rather James spoke about showing "my faith by my works" and it is directly speaking about the faith and works of Abraham. It directly states that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac. In any case, Christ expressed his faith through his works by living in accordance with God's character, so us living in accordance with God's character is Christ's faith and works. Nothing in this passage or anywhere else in the Bible speaks about us being required to have perfect works. Christ expressed his righteousness by setting an example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so that is also the way that we live through faith when we are imputed with his righteousness through faith.