Rapture True or False.

[Nehemiah6]

The tribulation been here a long while it's why the world has been at war and all the evil is all around us why good Christian people have terrible things happen thy don't deserve this works is full of tribulations for Christian now across the globe

The Tribulation cannot have been for "a long while" and yet an event such as has never been before, nor will ever be again.

Which means that it is a totally unique event which lasts for a limited time only and is primarily related to the Jews: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [the Jews]: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people [the Jews] shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1) The only time we see Michael "standing up" is in Revelation chapter 12 when he and his angels cast out Satan and his evil angels from "heaven" (the atmospheric heaven). So Revelation (and the judgments in Revelation) but be connected to the Tribulation.

The word "Jacob" is often used for the nation of Israel or the twelve tribes (since the name "Israel" was applied to Jacob by Christ when He wrestled with him). So we read of "the time of Jacob's trouble" in Jeremiah 30:5-7 and once again the uniqueness of the Tribulation is stressed ("none is like it"): For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. And this corresponds to what Daniel wrote.

"Not of peace" connects this time to the deception of the Jews by the Antichrist, where he makes a covenant of peace, but brings about "desolations" instead: And he ["the prince that shall come = the Antichrist] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Dan 9:27)

So "the Tribulation" and the reign of the Antichrist run parallel to each other. We certainly do not have the full picture, but it is in the first half of Daniel's 70th week that Satan and the Antichrist are given 3 1/2 years to have total control of all the inhabitants of the world. But the Jews are his biggest target and this is primarily their Tribulation. This time is still in the future.

To claim that "the Church" goes through the Tribulation is LAUGHABLE. You will not find the word "church" or "churches" from Revelation 4 to Revelation 18 (where all the judgments and wrath of God are described in detail). Why? Because "God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:9). There are also other reasons why the Rapture occurs BEFORE the Tribulation.

 

[soberxp]

The Tribulation is to try the faithful ,the wrath of God is after that concludes believers go through the tribulation on earth and are delivered from the wrath to come through faith unto repentance



And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 10:21‭-‬22 KJV


For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:5‭, ‬8‭-‬14‭, ‬23‭-‬27 KJV

After the tribulation then he will come gather us at the end before he unleases his wrath


But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
Mark 13:24‭-‬27‭, ‬32‭-‬34‭, ‬37 KJV

After the tribulation


For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15‭-‬17 KJV


Gods wrath will burn up the earth but just before that we'll be caught up to him an all his people if were alive that day his wrath is the tribulation it comes after when Jesus comes back



and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.
2 Thessalonians 1:7‭-‬10 KJV

The tribulation been her a long while it's why the world has been at war and all the evil is all around us why good Christian people have terrible things happen thy don't deserve this works is full of tribations for Christian now across the globe

I mean patience, for suffering if you can't change it, think of how many stupid Christians are still in favor of war and hatred, then it is not surprising that any Christian faces a day of suffering, because our community is not purely following Jesus Christ.

If you are the faithful to take up your own cross ,nothing to you is Tribulation.

No matter what the suffering, when you face Jesus, He will give you all justice, so don't fear any suffering like Job like Jesus Christ.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Its hard to say no rapture when you find the word "caught up" in the sky to meet Jesus. The only real question is the relationship to the rest of prophecy. There are theories, and specation galore.
One thing is certain, when Jesus returns, we as in all the church will go up to meet him in the sky. Then likely process with him to the earth where He will execute His wrath and complete redemptive history.

 

[soberxp]

caught up
pursue； run after； chase after；

We chase after(follow) Jesus Christ. First death and second life.

For these who do not follow, first death and second death.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I mean patience, for suffering if you can't change it, think of how many stupid Christians are still in favor of war and hatred, then it is not surprising that any Christian faces a day of suffering, because our community is not purely following Jesus Christ.

If you are the faithful to take up your own cross ,nothing to you is Tribulation.

No matter what the suffering, when you face Jesus, He will give you all justice, so don't fear any suffering like Job like Jesus Christ.

a yeah your looking at it like this basically it sounds like

“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep your's also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:20‬ ‭

The reason Christian’s will face persecutions , temptations , threats injustices unfair tradgedies ect is because were “ in Christ , the body of Christ , we do what we do in his name we walk by faith in Christ “

and we live in this world

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

have this active enemy in this world

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭

awe have what Jesus promised though to look to after our time this world

“And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭14:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

at the end of our faith walk with Jesus

What I was saying is this world is always going to have tribulation for Christian’s because of the wickedness that fills it and the hearts of so many people that do so much evil

You have this happening since Christ was seated on heaven

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those are Christian’s on earth in this world

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭

This world

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:15-17‬ ‭

So we know we aren’t going to coast through this world free of trouble or hardship or trial or tribulation if we carry Jesus in us the world is opposed and at war with us

“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:11-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We’re just called to endure in faith whatever comes for some it’s great and terrible persecutions in the pet it’s been terribly brutal deaths torments and tribulations of many kinds for others it’s mental struggles and medical trials and other forms of tribulation and trials and responds of faith going through tough things strengthens us


“Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:6-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i would say tribulation is tribulation but if we look to the end when we’re going through it we have strength to endure in Hope

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Tribulation cannot have been for "a long while" and yet an event such as has never been before, nor will ever be again.

Which means that it is a totally unique event which lasts for a limited time only and is primarily related to the Jews: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [the Jews]: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people [the Jews] shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1) The only time we see Michael "standing up" is in Revelation chapter 12 when he and his angels cast out Satan and his evil angels from "heaven" (the atmospheric heaven). So Revelation (and the judgments in Revelation) but be connected to the Tribulation.

The word "Jacob" is often used for the nation of Israel or the twelve tribes (since the name "Israel" was applied to Jacob by Christ when He wrestled with him). So we read of "the time of Jacob's trouble" in Jeremiah 30:5-7 and once again the uniqueness of the Tribulation is stressed ("none is like it"): For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. And this corresponds to what Daniel wrote.

"Not of peace" connects this time to the deception of the Jews by the Antichrist, where he makes a covenant of peace, but brings about "desolations" instead: And he ["the prince that shall come = the Antichrist] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Dan 9:27)

So "the Tribulation" and the reign of the Antichrist run parallel to each other. We certainly do not have the full picture, but it is in the first half of Daniel's 70th week that Satan and the Antichrist are given 3 1/2 years to have total control of all the inhabitants of the world. But the Jews are his biggest target and this is primarily their Tribulation. This time is still in the future.

To claim that "the Church" goes through the Tribulation is LAUGHABLE. You will not find the word "church" or "churches" from Revelation 4 to Revelation 18 (where all the judgments and wrath of God are described in detail). Why? Because "God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:9). There are also other reasons why the Rapture occurs BEFORE the Tribulation.

Naw there’s nothing you can rwason to change what Jesus said as much as you want to create a doctrine before the tribulation he said it will happen after so did Paul lol after the resurrection of the dead is when it happens when Jesus returns at the end of the world see you have a good reason and logic to your post for sure if I didn’t hear Jesus explain it and Paul explain it I would probably agree with your post it’s well written but it’s flaw is here

Your whole argument neede this to be untrue after Jesus spends ot of time preparing them for what they will go through soon after he died and raised up at the end of his speech preparing them for all th is tribulation they will face th en he offers hope at the end

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:9-10, 12-13, 24-27‬ ‭

jesus literally teaches them you will endure all of these things but stay strong as you go through them and you’ll be saved afterwards

a and yet your whole argument depends on Christian’s not going through the tribulation Jesus explains to them in great detail

i thinkmpossibly what’s confusing to some folks is hey ask him about the immediate future and destruction of Jerusalem and also about his second coming at the end of the world th at he’s already taught them would happen

In all three contemporary gospel accounts whether it’s Matthew 24 mark 13 or Luke’s account he’s talking about two times one immediate ( 67-60) ad and also the distant future the end of the world which we’re waiting for Jesus return

What I’m saying is the premise for Matthew 24 mark 13 and Luke’s various additions to the subject matter is always from the premise of two seperate events one immediate the end and desolation of Israel and one in the far away future the end and desolation of the world which we are waiting for that will come suddenly

Thisnis our situation and think of the last twenty generations l of the terrible things that have happened to Christian’s through mass persecutions all over the world for two thousand years all the earthquakes and wars that still continue today all of the wickedness bay still goes on every day in every place

Jesus spoke of those ongoing perpetual things that would go on to the end

the time that was the worst ever for israel was 70 ad that already is fulfilled but orts of Matthew 24 Matthew 10 mark 13 and Luke 21 have been happening all along still today there are wars rumors of wars all e many false prophets claiming to speak for Christ trying to deceive people ect so much of what he said brother describes the world right now earthquakes wars rumors and threats of war , a war that could end the world in fire none the less , but my point is there was something immediate that was going to happen to Jerusalem and it’s temple

Here’s this part that happened in 79 ad to Jerusalem

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:20-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then there’s also the other matter of the end of the world and Jesus returning from heaven to gather his elect people after all the perpetual tribulations he spoke occured and concluded then he will suddenly appear and this will happen

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:51-52‬ ‭KJV‬‬



That’s going to happen in a moment suddenly at the end of the world the wrath of God is what’s going to burn up the earth and everything and one In it were being saved from that

 

[Nehemiah6]

...I didn’t hear Jesus explain it...

All you have to do is go to John 14:1-3 where Jesus explained it personally. "Let not your heart be troubled" says it all. But you are also confused about the sequence of events, and if we were to carefully examine that mishmash we would discover several absurdities.

 

[soberxp]

So we know we aren’t going to coast through this world free of trouble or hardship or trial or tribulation if we carry Jesus in us the world is opposed and at war with us

“

Whatever happens, we will be ready.
The last sign God showed me in the sky was an aircraft carrier.

The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

Samuel 22:31
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.
22:36
Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy gentleness hath made me great.


Psalm
18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
18:35 Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.

and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.the word of God is my weapon and my armor.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Whatever happens, we will be ready.
The last sign God showed me in the sky was an aircraft carrier.

The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

Samuel 22:31
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.
22:36
Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy gentleness hath made me great.


Psalm
18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
18:35 Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.

and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.the word of God is my weapon and my armor.

“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭
“For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:34-37‬ ‭

“But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

…Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep, sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:1-3, 6-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

not to wrath but yes to tribulation and trial by fire but we have a hope to an end or rather without end

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 9-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

All you have to do is go to John 14:1-3 where Jesus explained it personally. "Let not your heart be troubled" says it all. But you are also confused about the sequence of events, and if we were to carefully examine that mishmash we would discover several absurdities.

ahh well it’s not absurd to learn what Jesus said about things and believe but brother you can believe however you wish about a rapture it’s no offense to me but I’m always going to stay with what scripture says rather than logic and reasoning claiming the opposite

At he sequence is written down spoken by Jesus himself first then elaborated on by the apostles so I’m pretty positive it’s not absurd to learn what they said and believe that part

theres always going to be tribulation in this world for godly people till it ends in fire when Jesus returns to gather his people




When Jesus appears this is going to happen

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord ( that’s what we’re waiting for bro ) shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-17‬ ‭

as d everyone and thing else other than his elect whoch he’s gathering is left to this part

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV

were waiting for his return now for this sudden moment of our salvstion after the faithful dead are raised and we are changed and caught up with Jesus and all believers when he returns that glorious day

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:51-52‬ ‭KJV‬‬

were caught up Minton e heavens with Jesus and all the elect and it’s because that same day is this day

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The sequence is the tribulation concludes d immediately after Jesus will appear and gather his elect from heaven and earth the dead will rise up first then all the yet living believers will instantly be glorified and raised up with Jesus in the heavens then the world is going to be destroyed utterly with fire after all the believers are forst saved and redeemed and exalted up high above it all then the wrath of God will be unleashed on earth

i really have no interest I. Arguing though brother I like to read a lot of your posts and agree with many learn some things from some I just don’t agree with a pre tribulation rapture no matter who is explaining it based on what scripture says so plainly if it’s a word because o don’t agree with you I apologize but I’ve looked into this subject for fourty years still haven’t found and scripture supporting pre tribulation rapture as most people explain it anyways

often we just have different ideas of what a rapture even is to begin with not agreeing on timing is t surprising lol no offense intended of anything though just don’t agree wi th pre tribulation rapture personally see no evidence for not on the Bible but it’s okay with me if others do believe in a pre tribulation rapture

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When reading what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3, which you've quoted above, I always recommend that people read both chapters of Isaiah 34-35 (2 chpts which form one prophecy) to grasp the whole picture of what it is that Peter is speaking of, when referencing Isa34:4... as opposed to our simply lifting the ONE VERSE (34:4) out from its context and injecting a meaning into it which doesn't take this (both chpts of Isa34-35) into consideration...

The sequence is the tribulation concludes d immediately after Jesus will appear and gather his elect from heaven and earth the dead will rise up first then all the yet living believers will instantly be glorified and raised up with Jesus in the heavens then the world is going to be destroyed utterly with fire after all the believers are forst saved and redeemed and exalted up high above it all then the wrath of God will be unleashed on earth

Again, let the reader view BOTH chapters of Isaiah 34 and 35 (a single prophecy) to ascertain just what Peter is speaking about when he references Isa34:4 in this 2 Peter 3 passage. = )

 

[Nehemiah6]

The sequence is the tribulation concludes immediately after Jesus will appear and gather his elect from heaven and earth the dead will rise up first then all the yet living believers will instantly be glorified and raised up with Jesus in the heavens then the world is going to be destroyed utterly with fire after all the believers are first saved and redeemed and exalted up high above it all then the wrath of God will be unleashed on earth

A TOTAL MISHMASH OF BIBLE PROPHECY!

How does anyone arrive at such a confused understanding? So let's get the sequence of events in their proper order:

1. The Resurrection/Rapture of the saints
2. The Tribulation (parallel to the reign of the Antichrist)
3. The Great Tribulation (the vials of God's wrath)
4. Cataclysmic cosmic events (sun, moon, stars, heavens, earth)
5. The Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints and angels (after the Marriage of the Lamb)

6. The battle of Armageddon and the destruction of the Antichrist
10. The Millennial Kingdom on earth (with Satan bound in the bottomless pit)
11. The battle of Gog and Magog
12. The supernatural destruction of the enemies of Christ and Israel
13. Satan cast into the Lake of Fire
14. The Great White Throne Judgment
15. The supernatural burning up of the earth and its atmosphere
16. The establishment of the New Heavens and the New earth.

A very simple question will answer the absurdity of Christ gathering His saints at the Second Coming: "IF THIS FANTASY WERE REALITY HOW IN THE WORLD WOULD CHRIST BE COMING WITH HIS SAINTS FROM HEAVEN AT THE SAME TIME AS HE IS GATHERING HIS SAINTS FROM THE EARTH?

 

[GaryA]

A TOTAL MISHMASH OF BIBLE PROPHECY!

Nope. However, he did leave something out... [Two Witnesses]

How does anyone arrive at such a confused understanding? So let's get the sequence of events in their proper order:

1. The Resurrection/Rapture of the saints
2. The Tribulation (parallel to the reign of the Antichrist)
3. The Great Tribulation (the vials of God's wrath)
4. Cataclysmic cosmic events (sun, moon, stars, heavens, earth)
5. The Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints and angels (after the Marriage of the Lamb)

6. The battle of Armageddon and the destruction of the Antichrist
10. The Millennial Kingdom on earth (with Satan bound in the bottomless pit)
11. The battle of Gog and Magog
12. The supernatural destruction of the enemies of Christ and Israel
13. Satan cast into the Lake of Fire
14. The Great White Throne Judgment
15. The supernatural burning up of the earth and its atmosphere
16. The establishment of the New Heavens and the New earth.

Let me fix that for you:

1. The Tribulation [ends]
2. Cataclysmic cosmic events (sun, moon, stars, heavens, earth) [Two Witnesses]
3. The Second Coming of Christ (Resurrection/Rapture of the saints upon His arrival)
4. The Wrath of God
5. The battle of Armageddon
.
.
.

What are #7, #8, and #9 from your list? Why did you leave them out? Where do the 'Two Witnesses' go in your list?

A very simple question will answer the absurdity of Christ gathering His saints at the Second Coming: "IF THIS FANTASY WERE REALITY HOW IN THE WORLD WOULD CHRIST BE COMING WITH HIS SAINTS FROM HEAVEN AT THE SAME TIME AS HE IS GATHERING HIS SAINTS FROM THE EARTH?

The answer is very simple. You have heard it "a million times already"...

 

[GaryA]

The Tribulation cannot have been for "a long while" and yet an event such as has never been before, nor will ever be again.

Of course it can...

started circa 70 A.D. - ends at some point in the future - never before; never again

 

[Cameron143]

Of course it can...

started circa 70 A.D. - ends at some point in the future - never before; never again

That's a new take on must shortly come to pass.

 

[GaryA]

That's a new take on must shortly come to pass.

"must shortly begin to come to pass" - look at the Greek very closely...

 

[Cameron143]

"must shortly begin to come to pass" - look at the Greek very closely...

I'm gonna have to go with...I've heard it both ways

 

[Nehemiah6]

Of course it can... started circa 70 A.D. - ends at some point in the future - never before; never again

That's laughable and also contradicts Scripture. Then the term "the Tribulation" would be meaningless.

 

[Nehemiah6]

What are #7, #8, and #9 from your list? Why did you leave them out? Where do the 'Two Witnesses' go in your list?

They were not relevant to the main events.
#7 The Beast and the False Prophet cast into the Lake of Fire
#8 The supernatural gathering of the Jews to Israel from around the world (including the "elect" Jewish remnant.
#9 The resurrection of the Tribulation saints

 

[Nehemiah6]

3. The Second Coming of Christ (Resurrection/Rapture of the saints upon His arrival)

As I already pointed out this is an ABSURDITY. Since the Second Coming of Christ is AFTER the Marriage of the Lamb, it is a divine necessity that all the saints be present in Heaven BEFORE the Second Coming in order to be at the Marriage. And this can only happen with a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Therefore it is impossible that the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event.

Now if you love absurdity, then stick with what you believe. But if you cannot see the proper sequence of events even after they are shown to you, then there is nothing left to discuss.