Rapture True or False.

[Nehemiah6]

I believe in the rapture, that is meeting Christ in the air. But after that I cannot for the life of me understand the sequence of events.

It is not really that complicated. There are events taking place in Heaven at the same time as there are events taking place on earth until the Second Coming of Christ.

EVENTS AFTER THE RAPTURE

IN HEAVEN
1. The judgment of the works of the saints at the Judgment Seat of Christ
2. The Marriage of the Lamb with all the saints present

ON EARTH
1. The reign of the Antichrist + the Tribulation ( 3 1/2 years)
2. The Great Tribulation

ON EARTH AND IN THE ATMOSPHERIC HEAVENS
3. Cataclysmic cosmic events

THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
4. With His saints and angels
5. The battle of Armageddon
6. The worldwide gathering of the Jews to Israel
7. The Millennium and events beyond the Millennium

 

[Clayman]

And, that is one of the 'assumption' mistakes that pre-trib folks make - thinking that it will [only] be "seconds later"...

It will be at least some-number-of-hours later - while the 'Wrath of God' is "poured out upon the earth" (7 vials) - not to mention that Armageddon must also transpire during that time (could possibly add days to the total - maybe, maybe not) - before Jesus Himself "touches down" on the earth.

Thanks, its good to understand the post trib view? I guess I did always assume you guys see the returning of the Lord and the catching up was one continuous descent.

Im trying to understand your position? We are raptured before the bowl judgments then the 7 bowl/vials are poured out which takes place in a number of hours maybe days?

So do you believe we are in the clouds stationary with the Lord or back in heaven? Does for example the 6th vial which dries up the river Euphrates to prepare the way for the kings from the east all occur within hours or days from the end? Just so I understand, is your position post or mid trib rapture?

I have a rather simple view of the judgments I see the judgments/wrath upon the earth as running concurrent not chronological what I mean is, say someone greater sent a foreign emission to another kingdom and then when he arrives at the courtyard of a palace to announce a Judgment against a King and his kingdom, he will first break the seal of his letter showing forth his authority, then he will pronounce in a loud voice the judgment, then the actions will be carried out. I dont see three separate judgments here but one and the same.

So I see the same in the book of revelation except they are in sevens, my view leads to interesting discussion with other pre-tribs who dont all agree yet some concede some points and find interesting things to consider, Im just pointing this out so you understand I have a hard time seeing how someone can put the seven seals and the seven trumpets all finishing? then the rapture followed by the vials poured out upon the earth? And all as separate chronological events, If that is even how you see it?

 

[Grace911]

Our question is Why do these people continue to speculate, calculate,
And guess (embarassingly) about the end times when there is over a
1900-year "track record" which shows us a 100% Failure rate?
("bad works"?)

How is that getting anyone "prepared for judgment"? We're not
against studying end times and learning, but:

Isn't it more Important to get out the Gospel Of Grace, And to teach
and equip new-born babes (who would "choke," getting Confused
{on theories?} of the [end times] meat Of The Word) with how to be:

"Approved Unto God" so they also can have "good works" for
judgment, at the rapture?:

I appreciate the gentle reprimand. You are right. It doesn't help to theorize or speculate.

 

[Cameron143]

I appreciate the gentle reprimand. You are right. It doesn't help to theorize or speculate.

Wow...someone humble and teachable. Bless you.

 

[GaryA]

Thanks, its good to understand the post trib view? I guess I did always assume you guys see the returning of the Lord and the catching up was one continuous descent.

Im trying to understand your position? We are raptured before the bowl judgments then the 7 bowl/vials are poured out which takes place in a number of hours maybe days?

So do you believe we are in the clouds stationary with the Lord or back in heaven? Does for example the 6th vial which dries up the river Euphrates to prepare the way for the kings from the east all occur within hours or days from the end? Just so I understand, is your position post or mid trib rapture?

I have a rather simple view of the judgments I see the judgments/wrath upon the earth as running concurrent not chronological what I mean is, say someone greater sent a foreign emission to another kingdom and then when he arrives at the courtyard of a palace to announce a Judgment against a King and his kingdom, he will first break the seal of his letter showing forth his authority, then he will pronounce in a loud voice the judgment, then the actions will be carried out. I dont see three separate judgments here but one and the same.

So I see the same in the book of revelation except they are in sevens, my view leads to interesting discussion with other pre-tribs who dont all agree yet some concede some points and find interesting things to consider, Im just pointing this out so you understand I have a hard time seeing how someone can put the seven seals and the seven trumpets all finishing? then the rapture followed by the vials poured out upon the earth? And all as separate chronological events, If that is even how you see it?

~ in the clouds with the Lord

~ post-trib, post-wrath, pre-millenial ('historicist' view of eschatology)

~ Revelation 'events'/'judgments':

'seals' occur over the past ~2000 years (part past, part present, part future)

'trumpets' occur over a period of time that is at least 3.5 years

'vials' occur over a period of time that is somewhere between hours and days

(Needless to say, I believe the three are clearly separate.)

Two Witnesses after end of Great Tribulation and before Second Coming of Christ

Two Witnesses actually cause the 'trumpet' events to occur during their prophecy/testimony

For more information about my point of view regarding the End Times Scenario - please see the web pages in the 'Study' section of my web site. (http://mywebsite.us)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Two Witnesses after end of Great Tribulation and before Second Coming of Christ

Since the ministry of the two witnesses is during the reign of the Antichrist, it cannot possibly be after the end of the Great Tribulation (which follows). And since major cataclysmic cosmic events occur after the Great Tribulation and before the Second Coming, that is even stronger evidence that you have no idea about end time events. Gary. it is time to set aside all your assumptions, and do some serious searching of the Scriptures. It is the Antichrist who causes the two witnesses to be killed, following which they are resurrected and raptured. This is long before the Second Coming.

 

[GaryA]

Since the ministry of the two witnesses is during the reign of the Antichrist, it cannot possibly be after the end of the Great Tribulation (which follows). And since major cataclysmic cosmic events occur after the Great Tribulation and before the Second Coming, that is even stronger evidence that you have no idea about end time events. Gary. it is time to set aside all your assumptions, and do some serious searching of the Scriptures. It is the Antichrist who causes the two witnesses to be killed, following which they are resurrected and raptured. This is long before the Second Coming.

Take a good long look at the table on this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

Pay particular attention to the details in/of the verses in the 'Trumpet' columns until you can see the answers to these questions:

Q: Who kills the Two Witnesses?

A: The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit.

Q: During what span of time MUST the beast come up out of the bottomless pit?

A: After the bottomless pit is opened but before the Two Witnesses are killed.

Q: When is the bottomless pit opened?

A: During the events of Trumpet 5

Q: What does all of this tell you about the timing of the Two Witnesses relative to the Trumpet Events?

A: They coincide/overlap. And - I suggest - the Two Witnesses actually cause the Trumpet Events to come about by their prophecy.

Look at the details in all of the verses regarding the sun, moon, and stars.

After the tribulation.

Before the Second Coming of Christ.

A 3.5-year period of time we call the Two Witnesses.

Some of this time is before Trumpet 5; some is after [the beginning of the Trumpet 5 events].

Jesus appears after the Two Witnesses are raised up.

Then, after Jesus raptures the saints, God commands the angels to "pour out" the Vials ('Wrath of God').

Armageddon is toward the end of the Vials ('Wrath of God').

The tribulation is over before the Trumpet Events and the Vials occur.

Therefore, the Trumpet Events and the Vials ('Wrath of God') are both post-tribulation.

By definition - by virtue of the sequence/timing given to us in scripture - they cannot be part of the tribulation.

The sequence/timing is given in this phrase:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days...

Everything mentioned after those words is post-tribulation.

The description concerning the sun, moon, and stars - is in reality a 3.5-year period of time - that we call the Two Witnesses - after which occurs the Second Coming of Christ.

All of it is post-tribulation.

The tribulation ends at the start of the time of the Two Witnesses - the Second Coming occurs [at least] 3.5 years later...

Study it carefully.

 

[GaryA]

It is the Antichrist who causes the two witnesses to be killed, following which they are resurrected and raptured. This is long before the Second Coming.

The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit kills the two witnesses. Are you saying that the 'Antichrist' commands the beast to kill them? Or, are you saying that the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit is the 'Antichrist'? Or, what...???

 

[GaryA]

[Post #3842]

The Great Tribulation ends before the first trumpet event begins.

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

[Post #3848]

Go look at the chart/table on the web page linked to in post #3842.

Put two and two together.

Look closely...

Who kills the Two Witnesses?

Where did they come from?

Could/Would they ascend out of the bottomless pit before it was opened?

Of course not.

Would you say the Two Winesses are killed at some point in time after Trumpet 5 is initiated?

( Just nod your head up and down and say 'yes'. )

Would you say the prophecy and testimony of the Two Witnesses occurred before that time?

( Just nod your head up and down and say 'yes'. )

2 + 2 = 4

 

[GaryA]

Okay. Now - it makes sense that:

1) The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (Revelation 11:7) will not kill the Two Witnesses before ascending out of the bottomless pit.

2) That same beast will not ascend out of the bottomless pit before it is 'opened'. (Revelation 9:2)

Agree?

 

[GaryA]

The Second Coming of Christ is not aligned with the end of the Trib; rather, the arrival of the Two Witnesses "on the scene" is aligned with the end of the Trib.

I believe Jesus returns "very shortly after" the Two Witnesses are raised up after being killed.

In Matthew 24, there is a 3.5 year span of time between the start of verse 29 and the start of verse 30. It is the Two Witnesses and the Trumpet Events.

 

[GaryA]

1. The Tribulation [ends]
2. Cataclysmic cosmic events (sun, moon, stars, heavens, earth) [Two Witnesses]
3. The Second Coming of Christ (Resurrection/Rapture of the saints upon His arrival)
4. The Wrath of God
5. The battle of Armageddon

 

[Nehemiah6]

Or, are you saying that the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit is the 'Antichrist'?

That is the only logical conclusion. Demons come from the bottomless pit. So it is more than likely that the Antichrist is a demon possessed megalomanic controlled and aided by Satan.

 

[GaryA]

That is the only logical conclusion. Demons come from the bottomless pit. So it is more than likely that the Antichrist is a demon possessed megalomanic controlled and aided by Satan.

So - you are saying you believe/think the 'Antichrist' is a "demon possessed megalomanic" that comes up out of the bottomless pit when it is 'opened' during the 5th trumpet events - kills the Two Witnesses - then starts his world dictatorship - which continues for some time (3.5 years?) after the Two Witnesses are raised three days later...?

 

[GaryA]

Demons come from the bottomless pit.

All demons? How do we know that? Is it in scripture somewhere? Are there no demons on the earth now? Or, can they come-and-go as they please from the bottomless pit? (Which, presumedly, is in a "sealed" state-and-condition until the 5th trumpet events occur.)

I am guessing that you do not believe that demons are the disembodied souls of the 'illegitimate' children of the fallen angels? (Nephilim)

 

[GaryA]

So - you are saying you believe/think the 'Antichrist' is a "demon possessed megalomanic" that comes up out of the bottomless pit when it is 'opened' during the 5th trumpet events - kills the Two Witnesses - then starts his world dictatorship - which continues for some time (3.5 years?) after the Two Witnesses are raised three days later...?

Is this how the 'Antichrist' starts his world dictatorship? :

Revelation 11:

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[GaryA]

Since the ministry of the two witnesses is during the reign of the Antichrist

That is the only logical conclusion. Demons come from the bottomless pit. So it is more than likely that the Antichrist is a demon possessed megalomanic controlled and aided by Satan.

I think your "logical conclusion" is an impossibility - unless, perhaps, you are saying that the 'Antichrist' comes from the bottomless pit (during the 5th trumpet events) - conducts his dictatorship during the rest of the 5th trumpet events and beyond - and then kills the Two Witnesses...?

Is that what you are suggesting?

How much time would you suggest there was between the 'opening' of the bottomless pit during the 5th trumpet events and the killing of the Two Witnesses?

 

[GaryA]

And since major cataclysmic cosmic events occur after the Great Tribulation and before the Second Coming

Yes - and, do you see how they are aligned with the trumpet events?

 

[GaryA]

do some serious searching of the Scriptures

I have for many years - and, the collective result may be seen on the web pages in the 'Study' section of my web site. (http://mywebsite.us)

 

[GaryA]

Yes - and, do you see how they are aligned with the trumpet events?

I have for many years - and, the collective result may be seen on the web pages in the 'Study' section of my web site. (http://mywebsite.us)

Please feel free to make good use of those pages in your continued study of the End Times Scenario.