Do you observe the Sabbath?

[MessengerofTruth]

Yes, why do you ask?

There are different interpretations of church history.

Yes, I understand but we may clearly see through Constantine's decrees that there were those in the year 321 that were still persisting to keep the Sabbath.

 

[Mem]

Because, where scripture is concerned the Holy Spirit enlightens us

Idk, that seems to be such a glib? (is that that word I wanting?) answer, considering everybody knows that. Perhaps a better word might be flippant? pert? I'm trying not to offend nor be offended tho

 

[thomas64]

Idk, that seems to be such a glib? (is that that word I wanting?) answer, considering everybody knows that. Perhaps a better word might be flippant? pert? I'm trying not to offend nor be offended tho

OK lets go with the scripture you quoted pertaining to this. What is going to be the response of many people if you tell them you have righteousness apart from obeying the law, your righteousness is faith in Christ. You are righteous before God apart from works? I hear it all the time. And verse31 confirms it in my view:
Do we then make void the law by faith?(can we act however we like) God forbid: Yea, we establish the law

 

[MessengerofTruth]

Which church are you referring to?

Romans, Galatians, Corinthians, Philippians, etc?

The Orthodox church, the Antioch church (the first Gentile church), the Greek Orthodox, etc?

There were also churches scattered across Europe and the eastern bloc countries, Russia etc?

There were also churches in Africa.

The one that gets all the credit for the atrocities done in the name Christianity.

As I understand it, those that did not conform to Rome were increasingly marginalized and persecuted by the up-and-coming Roman Catholic, apostate church.

 

[Mem]

OK lets go with the scripture you quoted pertaining to this. What is going to be the response of many people if you tell them you have righteousness apart from obeying the law, your righteousness is faith in Christ. You are righteous before God apart from works? I hear it all the time. And verse31 confirms it in my view:
Do we then make void the law by faith?(can we act however we like) God forbid: Yea, we establish the law

We will continue circling one another if I refer back to how we do not make void the law but establish it by believing, that the law is just to condemn us, and we establish that, the law, by agreeing that we cannot have righteousness of our own by it, no way no how. Indeed, we are the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Inquisitor]

The one that gets all the credit for the atrocities done in the name Christianity.

As I understand it, those that did not conform to Rome were increasingly marginalized and persecuted by the up-and-coming Roman Catholic, apostate church.

The Roman church took many centuries to increase it's power.

A series of ecclesiastical differences and theological disputes between the Greek East and Latin West preceded the formal split that occurred in 1054.[1][3][4] Prominent among these were the procession of the Holy Spirit (Filioque), whether leavened or unleavened bread should be used in the Eucharist,[a] the bishop of Rome's claim to universal jurisdiction, and the place of the See of Constantinople in relation to the pentarchy.[8] (wikipedia)

It wasn't until 1054 AD that a formal schism took place. This gives you some insight into how late it was, that the bishop in Rome was flexing his muscles.

 

[TMS]

Anyway, I don't mean to be judgmental in anyway, I'm just trying to figure out for myself: What is the deal with folks who follow a works-based belief system? Are they "severed from Christ"? Or is it that black and white?
Hope that you can understand...

I admit, i don't know all the answers a and I'm not perfect.

But from a personal experience. I've found that when i set my eyes on Jesus and heavenly things, my heart delights, and wants to do good works.

We can add anything to Christs righteousness, we can't improve the perfect gift that Christ gives us.
So why do i uphold the law and say it is God's will that we obey it?

Because the law is holy and just and good. The law is spiritual and a reflection of Gods character. Love for God and Love for each other is the summery of the 10 com...
My motives are not to gain favour or earn salvation. Not to be good enough.
By beholding we are changed into the image of God. Jesus perfectly obeyed the law, and i want to be like Jesus.

It is all about the motive....

Keeping the 10 commandments for the right motive is not wrong.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[TMS]

We can add anything

We can't add

 

[TMS]

You are not righteous and you can never be righteous outside of Christ.

Any attempt to obey the law is a trivial repetition of sin and death.

The law condemns, the law is perfect justice, you must die

We can't free ourselves from the guilt of sin.
Jesus can. Praise God for Jesus..
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Don't keep the law to be saved, but because you are saved.

 

[Inquisitor]

We can't free ourselves from the guilt of sin.
Jesus can. Praise God for Jesus..
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Don't keep the law to be saved, but because you are saved.

Well the separation between us is on a number of levels.

Christ gave us two new commandments in a new covenant, you see ten commandments from an old covenant.

You read and understand the New Testament differently.

You believe the historical church honored the sabbath day, I do not see that in church history.

You see your church as a remnant church, I have seen too many remnant churches. In fact, I did not even know there was such a thing as a remnant church.

• Remnant (Seventh-day Adventist belief), the Seventh-day Adventist doctrine of the "remnant church"
• Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
• Remnant Fellowship Church, the home church of Gwen Shamblin, author of The Weigh Down Diet, based in Franklin, Tennessee

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes, I understand but we may clearly see through Constantine's decrees that there were those in the year 321 that were still persisting to keep the Sabbath.

I never saw that in Constantine's decree.

 

[Inquisitor]

We can't add

I think you replied to yourself.

 

[TMS]

Really?

Here is Paul’s core message in a nutshell:
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56 The legally binding law with the power to condemn. It’s important to remember that when reading romans.
In romans ch3:20-30 Paul explains the believer can have no righteousness before God of obeying the law, they have righteousness apart from law, their righteousness is faith in Christ. Paul maintains believers are justified apart from law. What would some of his readers have thought after reading those verses? ‘Well if we are righteous before God apart from obeying the law we can act however we like and remain saved.’ Paul of course would have known that, hence verse 31:
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Rom3:31
You have to be able to understand Paul’s message as one cohesive whole.
Paul stated:
Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS(not full stop) to everyone who believeth Rom10:4
For Paul also wrote:
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Rom7:12
The above is in relation to the moral law, or ten commandments.
So what was God to do? He obviously wouldn’t want to remove what is holy, just and good, but He also wanted to take away what condemned man. The law comes in two parts. What is written in the law, and the attached penalty for transgression. Nothing wrong at all with the first part, it’s the second part that's the problem. So God did an incredible thing, he abolished the law, in the sense of what we all understand law to mean. For he removed its condemnation by sending Christ to die for our sins. But He then transferred what is written in the law from an external law written on tablets of stone to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts(2cor3:3) Paul states in rom ch2 the law(what is written in the law) is in believers hearts(Gentiles hearts was specifically mentioned).
So, by removing a legally binding law that condemns, the power of sin was also removed. But what is holy, just and good remains, it is now in believers hearts, meaning in believers hearts they do not want to murder, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, covet etc. That law cannot condemn you, for you have a saviour from your sin, the penalty of sin has been removed, but it does stop you having a licence to sin under grace, for in your heart you desire to live as God wants you to live, you want to live according to what has been placed in your heart, what is holy, just and good.
Therefore, with the power of sin removed from your life (the legally binding law with its power to condemn) you can now live far more as you in your heart want to live, for that is where what is holy, just and good now is. And so Paul states:
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law/righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ. Rom6:14
And so:
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Rom3:31
Therefore, you can have knowledge of sin through the law, without condemnation by the law, for righteousness of obeying the law has ended.

To those that have ears to hear. I agree.
But some refuse to see what Paul was saying...

Rom 8: 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

God was in a situation..

Remove the holy law and save us. (Mercy)
Or save the law which condemns us to eternal death (justice).

God out smarted the devil and had a plan that was perfect mercy and justice conbined.

Jesus paid the price (justice and mercy).

The moral law still stands but we are free from its condemnation by faith in Jesus's blood.

 

[TMS]

I think you replied to yourself.

I was correcting myself.
I accidentally wrote "can" and i should have wrote "can't". On my phone i find i make lots of mistakes.. 😖

 

[TMS]

Sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4
Sin = death. Rom 6:23

All have sinned. Rom 3:23

So we are all condemned to death by the law.. but we have a SAVIOUR. John 3:16.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The point is we are saved from the condemnation of the law, saved from the penalty of the law, because Jesus paid the price.

Jesus satisfied the requirements of the holy law and paid the price for our sins.

Perfect justice and perfect mercy.

If the law was removed why did Jesus need to pay the sins it reveals.
If the law was removed at the cross i am not guilty and need no salvation from sin and do not deserve death.

 

[Inquisitor]

Sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4
Sin = death. Rom 6:23

All have sinned. Rom 3:23

So we are all condemned to death by the law.. but we have a SAVIOUR. John 3:16.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The point is we are saved from the condemnation of the law, saved from the penalty of the law, because Jesus paid the price.

Jesus satisfied the requirements of the holy law and paid the price for our sins.

Perfect justice and perfect mercy.

If the law was removed why did Jesus need to pay the sins it reveals.
If the law was removed at the cross i am not guilty and need no salvation from sin and do not deserve death.

The law is a list of offenses that partly identify, a deep seated corruption within our nature.

That corrupt nature, the flesh, is the problem that has plagued humanity since Adam.

Self-righteousness is not identified within the law, for example. Yet, self-righteousness was at the heart of the Pharisees rebellion against Jesus. A self-righteous person has no need of Jesus.

Worldliness is also not stipulated in the law, yet worldliness tugs on us all.

The love of money is another deadly sin, that is never mentioned in the law.

We find that Jesus collides with all three of these major sins.

The law is a somewhat weak tool, when competing in the heavyweight division of sin.

 

[MessengerofTruth]

The Roman church took many centuries to increase it's power.

A series of ecclesiastical differences and theological disputes between the Greek East and Latin West preceded the formal split that occurred in 1054.[1][3][4] Prominent among these were the procession of the Holy Spirit (Filioque), whether leavened or unleavened bread should be used in the Eucharist,[a] the bishop of Rome's claim to universal jurisdiction, and the place of the See of Constantinople in relation to the pentarchy.[8] (wikipedia)

It wasn't until 1054 AD that a formal schism took place. This gives you some insight into how late it was, that the bishop in Rome was flexing his muscles.

I am actually referring to the anti-Nicene days when the bishop of Rome tried to prevent the keeping of the Sabbath and feasts in the churches but only succeeded in Rome and Alexandria until later when the Roman Church gained more power through Constantine.

 

[MessengerofTruth]

I never saw that in Constantine's decree.

I am sorry, it was at the Laodicean Council 363-364. Canon 29

"The Laodicean council specificially refers to the Sabbath: “Christians must not judaize by resting on the [Jewish] Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honoring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema (excommunicated) from Christ. " Canon 29

 

[Inquisitor]

I am sorry, it was at the Laodicean Council 363-364. Canon 29

"The Laodicean council specificially refers to the Sabbath: “Christians must not judaize by resting on the [Jewish] Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honoring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema (excommunicated) from Christ. " Canon 29

Laodicea was in Turkey.

It lay on a major trade route and in its neighbourhood were many important ancient cities; it was 17 km west of Colossae (Colossians), 10 km south of Hierapolis, and 160 km east of Ephesus.

Laodicea is also one of the seven churches of Asia mentioned in the Book of Revelation.

Distance of Laodicea to Rome, approximately 2000 km.

The Jews were under the law but the Gentiles at Laodicea were not under the law.

Hence, the church at Laodicea had nothing to do with the ceremonial law, or even the law as a whole.

 

[MessengerofTruth]

Laodicea was in Turkey.

It lay on a major trade route and in its neighbourhood were many important ancient cities; it was 17 km west of Colossae (Colossians), 10 km south of Hierapolis, and 160 km east of Ephesus.

Laodicea is also one of the seven churches of Asia mentioned in the Book of Revelation.

Distance of Laodicea to Rome, approximately 2000 km.

The Jews were under the law but the Gentiles at Laodicea were not under the law.

Hence, the church at Laodicea had nothing to do with the ceremonial law, or even the law as a whole.

Then why did the Laodicean Council specifically refer to the Sabbath?