Do you observe the Sabbath?

[Ted01]

Peoples characters are showing.

This is ment to be a bible discussion on keeping the sabbath.

Some are using it to put down denominations and share links that bad mouth them.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

If i wanted to find fault with any denomination, it will be online.

Our denomination will naturally influence us. This should be about the bible.. not about judging church beliefs..

Be careful Jesus said that the remnant people will be hated and persecuted.. so by spreading your hate, you are helping fulfill the prophesy.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Hi TMS,
I just wanted to respond to this because I'd regret if I might come across as condemning in any way.
I'm sorry that you might be feeling set upon because of your beliefs.

However, I feel that I need to say that this issue is important to my heart, and truly I feel somewhat conflicted by it. See, I tended to follow the commonly held beliefs of a works-based belief system for years. Gradually over time, my thinking has changed significantly.

What really concerns me and has me conflicted is the fact that there are more than just a few Scriptures that actually have a warning to Christians about returning to and/or adding to the Gospel any notion of including the "Law" to the message of Jesus. One example would be Gal. 5:4:

You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

And before you respond that you aren't promoting Justification by works of the Law... I've heard that before and remain unconvinced. Mainly because folks that follow such beliefs (works) are usually trying to convince people that the works that they are following, (and different folks pursue different "laws"), are required by God, or hallmarks of "right standing", etc. So, it's much more than just a mere personal thing that they feel convicted to do... themselves.

Anyway, I don't mean to be judgmental in anyway, I'm just trying to figure out for myself: What is the deal with folks who follow a works-based belief system? Are they "severed from Christ"? Or is it that black and white?
Hope that you can understand...

 

[thomas64]

The law written on the heart is the law of Christ. The law of unconditional love. God is love. God has poured His love into our hearts.

God did not write "don't eat bacon" into our hearts.

I agree God did not write don't eat bacon into our hearts. However

If a christian, stole would they specifically be conscious of sin in regards to stealing, or, would they only be conscious of sin in regards to not loving as they should?

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

If a christian committed adultery, would they specifically be conscious of sin in regards to committing the act of adultery, or, would they only be conscious of sin in regards to not loving as they should?

Through the law we become conscious of sin

If a christian bore false witness, would they specifically be conscious of sin because the bore false witness, or would they only be conscious of sin in regards to not loving as they should?

Through the law we become conscious of sin

Etc

 

[thomas64]

A law written in your mind and placed on your heart, will always convict you of sin to a far greater degree than a law written in ink will. Many who look to a law written in ink do not even know when they are breaking law they insist must be followed. A law in your most inward parts will always convict you of sin if you wilfully break it we may say.

As a child, I used to get bored in the sermons, and so, I would open my bible and read it. And, I read of the ten commandments. It baffled me why the tenth one was there. I could understand the importance of the other nine, but not the tenth. But in those days, I considered not coveting to only relate to not desiring a persons material goods, such as your neighbours nice house or car. Although I knew you should not desire those things of your neighbours, it hardly seemed important enough to make coveting one of the ten commandments. I figured God just added coveting to make the number up to ten.

When I reached puberty however, I immediately in my heart and mind knew impure thoughts/lust was sin, no one had to tell me that. And yet, at that time, I still only related not coveting to coveting a persons material goods. So the letter of the law would not have convicted me of the standard the law sets, whereas, the law within did. Its surprising, how many Christian adults today do not understand what is involved in obeying the letter of the ten commandments. On another site, a few months ago, one woman kept insisting to me lust was not covered by the ten commandments. Another woman told me thoughts are not covered by the law

 

[Inquisitor]

That is, we establish the law that concludes that those, with only Jesus as exception, that fail to keep its requirement require a sacrifice of which once provided is then deemed to be righteous.

At least someone understands Paul's argument in Romans.

Not easy to follow Paul's explanation in the letter to the Romans. Not at all surprised, that so many misunderstand what he said.

 

[Inquisitor]

I agree God did not write don't eat bacon into our hearts. However

If a christian, stole would they specifically be conscious of sin in regards to stealing, or, would they only be conscious of sin in regards to not loving as they should?

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

If a christian committed adultery, would they specifically be conscious of sin in regards to committing the act of adultery, or, would they only be conscious of sin in regards to not loving as they should?

Through the law we become conscious of sin

If a christian bore false witness, would they specifically be conscious of sin because the bore false witness, or would they only be conscious of sin in regards to not loving as they should?

Through the law we become conscious of sin

Etc

A good argument but you drew the wrong conclusion.

The law nailed you to the cross with Jesus. You are dead in Christ and the potent penalty of the law achieved it's purpose.

Saul was notified of his sin of coveting and condemned, Saul was dead from that point on.

Who will save Saul from the what he deserved?

The law grants you the knowledge of the depth of your sin, you failed and that is a permanent condition.

You are not righteous and you can never be righteous outside of Christ.

Any attempt to obey the law is a trivial repetition of sin and death.

The law condemns, the law is perfect justice, you must die.

 

[thomas64]

A good argument but you drew the wrong conclusion.

The law nailed you to the cross with Jesus. You are dead in Christ and the potent penalty of the law achieved it's purpose.

Saul was notified of his sin of coveting and condemned, Saul was dead from that point on.

Who will save Saul from the what he deserved?

The law grants you the knowledge of the depth of your sin, you failed and that is a permanent condition.

You are not righteous and you can never be righteous outside of Christ.

Any attempt to obey the law is a trivial repetition of sin and death.

The law condemns, the law is perfect justice, you must die.

Unfortunately, you do not understand Paul's message of law and grace. And, you are trying to argue against one of the core biblical tenets

 

[Inquisitor]

I agree God did not write don't eat bacon into our hearts. However

God said He wrote the law on your heart. If not eating bacon is not in your heart, then God must have written another law on your heart. Perhaps the law of Christ, the law of love, the royal law?

What else can be written on a person's heart?

 

[thomas64]

At least someone understands Paul's argument in Romans.

.

Really?

Here is Paul’s core message in a nutshell:
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56 The legally binding law with the power to condemn. It’s important to remember that when reading romans.
In romans ch3:20-30 Paul explains the believer can have no righteousness before God of obeying the law, they have righteousness apart from law, their righteousness is faith in Christ. Paul maintains believers are justified apart from law. What would some of his readers have thought after reading those verses? ‘Well if we are righteous before God apart from obeying the law we can act however we like and remain saved.’ Paul of course would have known that, hence verse 31:
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Rom3:31
You have to be able to understand Paul’s message as one cohesive whole.
Paul stated:
Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS(not full stop) to everyone who believeth Rom10:4
For Paul also wrote:
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Rom7:12
The above is in relation to the moral law, or ten commandments.
So what was God to do? He obviously wouldn’t want to remove what is holy, just and good, but He also wanted to take away what condemned man. The law comes in two parts. What is written in the law, and the attached penalty for transgression. Nothing wrong at all with the first part, it’s the second part that's the problem. So God did an incredible thing, he abolished the law, in the sense of what we all understand law to mean. For he removed its condemnation by sending Christ to die for our sins. But He then transferred what is written in the law from an external law written on tablets of stone to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts(2cor3:3) Paul states in rom ch2 the law(what is written in the law) is in believers hearts(Gentiles hearts was specifically mentioned).
So, by removing a legally binding law that condemns, the power of sin was also removed. But what is holy, just and good remains, it is now in believers hearts, meaning in believers hearts they do not want to murder, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, covet etc. That law cannot condemn you, for you have a saviour from your sin, the penalty of sin has been removed, but it does stop you having a licence to sin under grace, for in your heart you desire to live as God wants you to live, you want to live according to what has been placed in your heart, what is holy, just and good.
Therefore, with the power of sin removed from your life (the legally binding law with its power to condemn) you can now live far more as you in your heart want to live, for that is where what is holy, just and good now is. And so Paul states:
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law/righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ. Rom6:14
And so:
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Rom3:31
Therefore, you can have knowledge of sin through the law, without condemnation by the law, for righteousness of obeying the law has ended.

 

[thomas64]

God said He wrote the law on your heart. If not eating bacon is not in your heart, then God must have written another law on your heart. Perhaps the law of Christ, the law of love, the royal law?

What else can be written on a person's heart?

Read my next post!

 

[Inquisitor]

Unfortunately, you do not understand Paul's message of law and grace. And, you are trying to argue against one of the core biblical tenets

Jesus Christ is the only core doctrine in Christianity.

The letter to the Romans explains why righteousness (good behavior), is not available through the law.

The Jews stumbled over Jesus Christ and were severed from that tree of life, Jesus Christ.

Paul's message was salvation by grace through faith.

Paul's message was not Jesus plus the law equals salvation.

 

[thomas64]

Jesus Christ is the only core doctrine in Christianity.

The letter to the Romans explains why righteousness (good behavior), is not available through the law.

The Jews stumbled over Jesus Christ and were severed from that tree of life, Jesus Christ.

Paul's message was salvation by grace through faith.

Paul's message was not Jesus plus the law equals salvation.

You are simply showing your lack of understanding romans, and Pauls core message of law and grace

 

[Inquisitor]

You are simply showing your lack of understanding romans, and Pauls core message of law and grace

What was written on our heart?

The law?

Which law?

Romans 5:1-5
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Sounds like the royal, divine. unconditional, agape, law of love was written into our hearts.

Somehow, I do not think that, not coveting your neighbors oxen was written or poured into our hearts.

 

[thomas64]

What was written on our heart?

The law?

Which law?

Romans 5:1-5
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Sounds like the royal, divine. unconditional, agape, law of love was written into our hearts.

Somehow, I do not think that, not coveting your neighbors oxen was written or poured into our hearts.

As you are trying to argue against one of the core tenets of the bible: ''Through the law we are conscious of sin'' I will leave it there. Of course you won't accept what I wrote is the truth. No one changes their minds on these websites. Its just a scripture quoting contest where evereyone eventually leaves debates with their preconceived ideas intact. People have invested too much time and study to come to their conclusions to ever admit to error. You cannot be conscious of sin because you committed the act of adultery unless that law is in your heart and mind. With your belief, you could only ever be conscious of sin in regard to not loving as you should.

 

[Inquisitor]

You are simply showing your lack of understanding romans, and Pauls core message of law and grace

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Any form of self righteousness gained through the law is forbidden.

It was never about your obedience, your fruit, your works, the law.

It always has been about Jesus Christ and His righteousness, His gift of salvation.

Enough of this holy man approach to the Christian life, it was never about what you can do.

There by the grace of God only.

For by grace you have been saved...

 

[thomas64]

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Any form of self righteousness gained through the law is forbidden.

It was never about your obedience, your fruit, your works, the law.

It always has been about Jesus Christ and His righteousness, His gift of salvation.

Enough of this holy man approach to the Christian life, it was never about what you can do.

There by the grace of God only.

For by grace you have been saved...

Read the post again, it states you have no righteousness of obeying the law. Your post sounds like desperation to me

 

[thomas64]

For those who are interested. God did not have to abolish the moral law to end righteousness of obeying the law. Christ ended righteousness of obeying the law by dying for our sins/transgressions of the law at Calvary.

 

[Inquisitor]

As you are trying to argue against one of the core tenets of the bible: ''Through the law we are conscious of sin'' I will leave it there. Of course you won't accept what I wrote is the truth. No one changes their minds on these websites. Its just a scripture quoting contest where evereyone eventually leaves debates with their preconceived ideas intact. People have invested too much time and study to come to their conclusions to ever admit to error. You cannot be conscious of sin because you committed the act of adultery unless that law is in your heart and mind. With your belief, you could only ever be conscious of sin in regard to not loving as you should.

There has not existed a righteous person, not one, everyone has sinned.

Your flesh is at war with God's spirit within you, so that you cannot do what you really want to do.

You can read the law all you want but you will never know your a sinner, without the intervention of the Holy Spirit.

The Pharisees were righteous through the law, as was Saul, but they executed their creator.

You need to have a good hard look in the mirror.

The law condemned you and that was a terminal judgement.

 

[thomas64]

There has not existed a righteous person, not one, everyone has sinned.

Your flesh is at war with God's spirit within you, so that you cannot do what you really want to do.

You can read the law all you want but you will never know your a sinner, without the intervention of the Holy Spirit.

The Pharisees were righteous through the law, as was Saul, but they executed their creator.

You need to have a good hard look in the mirror.

The law condemned you and that was a terminal judgement.

The pharisees were righteous through the law, as was Saul?????? Saaul could not obey the ten commandments! The pharisees were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean on the inside, and they did not even know God according to Christ. Where on earth do you get your ideas from???

 

[thomas64]

It seems many on this website are so ingrained in blind beliefs of grace, they throw out the baby with the bathwater so to speak

 

[Inquisitor]

For those who are interested. God did not have to abolish the moral law to end righteousness of obeying the law. Christ ended righteousness of obeying the law by dying for our sins/transgressions of the law at Calvary.

You said the following.

But what is holy, just and good remains, it is now in believers hearts, meaning in believers hearts they do not want to murder, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, covet etc

Christians have two parts, the flesh and the Spirit.

We are in a war between our passions and desires, and the influence of the Holy Spirit.

Christians are constantly committing sin and not just the ten commandments.

Selfishness, laziness, gluttony, coveting, greed, worldliness, judging others, and many more sinful behaviors.

If you think for one moment that sin is simply defined by a handful of laws. Then you know very little about your flesh and it's desires.