Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?

[Papermonkey]

You're making the same mistake as another forum member in that YOU are viewing the subject matter through the lens of a fallen corrupt man - just like me and the rest of us - instead of lowering yourself and TAKING ON BOARD THE PERSPECTIVE FROM GOD's VIEW.

This may help:
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/creation-freed-decay

And by the way, I wasn't shouting and used capitals for emphasis.

Humans, lesser beings than God, need to lower themselves so to take on the perspective of scripture from God's view.
We need to lower ourselves to see things God's way. 🤔

Um, no.

 

[Runningman]

You're making the same mistake as another forum member in that YOU are viewing the subject matter through the lens of a fallen corrupt man - just like me and the rest of us - instead of lowering yourself and TAKING ON BOARD THE PERSPECTIVE FROM GOD's VIEW.

This may help:
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/creation-freed-decay

And by the way, I wasn't shouting and used capitals for emphasis.

Me sticking strictly to what the Bible says is not me viewing the subject matter through the lens of fallen, corrupt, man. The Bible writers wrote spiritually sound and accurate information. Yet, you quote some third-party non-Biblical source and claim it's God's perspective. Amazing you have managed to trick yourself, or were deceived rather, into believing you know God's perspective.

 

[CorrectiveLens]

Please, what is your point?

Is your point that God does not really hate anyone, but the term hatred when used of God is a term that compares the difference of unfathomable love to the absence of it. As we use the term today, God hates no one ( just their sins which have consequences because of His perfect justice).

Because I was making a point, which you still seem to have missed.

Is your point that God does not really hate anyone, but the term hatred when used of God is a term that compares the difference of unfathomable love to the absence of it. As we use the term today, God hates no one ( just their sins which have consequences because of His perfect justice). Thanks for the lesson.

 

[brightfame52]

But not before they are saved by grace through faith. And that is found in Ephesians 1:12-14:

That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, [Who] is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So what does this passage teach us?

1. The Gospel is called "the Word of Truth" (as in James 1:18 also). In other passages it is called "the Word of God" and "the power of God unto salvation".

2. When the Gospel is preached faith in Christ is generated by the power of the Gospel working in conjunction with the power of the Holy Spirit to convince and to convict. Thus "AFTER ye heard the Word of Truth".

3. We know that those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). This is the same as saying that Christ baptizes with the Holy Ghost. This of course in not mentioned above.

4. "AFTER ye beleved ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit" tells us that following the gift of the Holy Spirit, He -- God the Holy Spirit -- does many things in the believers heart, soul, and spirit. The "sealing" of the Holy Spirit includes (a) regeneration, (b) the indwelling of the Spirit, (c) the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, as well as many other supernatural things.

So according to the true Gospel it is only AFTER repentance and faith in Christ that a sinner receives the Holy Spirit. But according to Reformed Theology the Holy Spirit is given to the so-called elect BEFORE they are saved. And here is the evidence from the Westminster Confession which speaks of "effectual calling": 2. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

People need to see that this turns the Gospel on its head, and puts the cart before the horse.

Being quickened and saved by grace are the same Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So one must first be made alive in order to believe, believing is active, which denotes life, but there is no life while dead before being quickened/saved. So believing Faith is resultive of having been quickened, made alive.

 

[WillB]

Humans, lesser beings than God, need to lower themselves so to take on the perspective of scripture from God's view.
We need to lower ourselves to see things God's way. 🤔

Um, no.

The more of you that you put into theological matters the further away you move from God.

And that applies to me too....and everyone else.

 

[WillB]

Me sticking strictly to what the Bible says is not me viewing the subject matter through the lens of fallen, corrupt, man. The Bible writers wrote spiritually sound and accurate information. Yet, you quote some third-party non-Biblical source and claim it's God's perspective. Amazing you have managed to trick yourself, or were deceived rather, into believing you know God's perspective.

That you view the Scripture-based reasoning of R C Sproul in such a derogatory manner says a great deal about your mindset.

 

[Yoke-Fellow]

Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?

Yes indeed!

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That's true. Personally I don't agree with total depravity because I don't think it accurately reflects the reality. Unsaved people can feed the hungry, help the poor, help the sick, and love one another too.

Matthew 5
46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

Luke 11
13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

And the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said in Matthew 5 that tax collectors also love. In Luke 11, Jesus said evil people can know how to give good gifts. Two of the gifts are love and goodness.

Galatians 5
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Our righteousness, by nature, is as filthy rags.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I do not see where the Bible teaches total depravity. That is the issue under all of this.

Our righteousness, by nature, is as filthy rags.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Actually the Jews are the chosen people. We were just grafted in. So I guess the Jews would be the ones He would save first and maybe fit in a gentile or two?

God's chosen people are from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Depends on how you interpret the word "Filled". Jesus said that they KNEW Holy Spirit, since He'd always been "WITH" them, but in the future, The Holy Spirit would be IN them (which happened at John 20:22, with the effect recorded at Luke 24:45).

What about Isa 63:11?

 

[Magenta]

What about Isa 63:11?

New International Version
Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people— where is he who brought
them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,

New Living Translation
Then they remembered those days of old when Moses led his people out of Egypt. They cried out, “Where is the one who brought Israel through the sea, with Moses as their shepherd? Where is the one who sent his Holy Spirit to be among his people?

English Standard Version
Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought them up
out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his Holy Spirit,

Berean Standard Bible
Then His people remembered the days of old, the days of Moses. Where is He who brought them
through the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is the One who set His Holy Spirit among them,

King James Bible
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them
up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

New King James Version
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying: “Where is He who brought them
up out of the sea With the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,

New American Standard Bible
Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses. Where is He who brought them up out of
the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,

NASB 1995
Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses. Where is He who brought them up out of
the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,

NASB 1977
Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses. Where is He who brought them up out of
the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,

Legacy Standard Bible
Then His people remembered the ancient days, of Moses. Where is He who brought them up out of
the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,

Amplified Bible
Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses [and they said], Where is He who brought our fathers up out of
the [Red] Sea, with the shepherds of His flock [Moses and Aaron]? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in their midst,

Christian Standard Bible
Then he remembered the days of the past, the days of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought
them out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put his Holy Spirit among the flock?

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then He remembered the days of the past, the days of Moses and his people. Where is He who brought
them out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit among the flock?

American Standard Version
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up
out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit in the midst of them?

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And remember the days of old times of Moses his Servant as he brought forth from
the sea The Shepherd of his flock and as he put within him The Spirit of his Holiness

Brenton Septuagint Translation
Then he remembered the ancient days, saying, Where is he that brought up from
the sea the shepherd of the sheep? where is he that put his Holy Spirit in them?

Contemporary English Version
But his people remembered what had happened during the time of Moses. Didn't the LORD
bring them and their leaders safely through the sea? Didn't he give them his Holy Spirit?

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he remembered the days of old of Moses, and of his people: Where is he that brought them up out of
the sea, with the shepherds of his flock? where is he that put in the midst of them the spirit of his Holy One?

English Revised Version
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up
out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? where is he that put his holy spirit in the midst of them?

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Then his people remembered Moses and the distant past. Where is the one who brought them
out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is the one who put his Holy Spirit in them?

Good News Translation
But then they remembered the past, the days of Moses, the servant of the LORD, and they asked, "Where now
is the LORD, who saved the leaders of his people from the sea? Where is the LORD, who gave his spirit to Moses?

International Standard Version
Then they remembered the days of old, of Moses his servant. Where is the one who brought up
out of the sea the shepherds of his flock? Where is the one who put his Holy Spirit among them,

JPS Tanakh 1917
Then His people remembered the days of old, the days of Moses: 'Where is He that brought them up
out of the sea With the shepherds of His flock? Where is He that put His holy spirit In the midst of them?

Literal Standard Version
And He remembers the days of old, | Moses—his people. Where [is] He who is bringing them up
from the sea, | The shepherd of His flock? Where [is] He who is putting in its midst His Holy Spirit?

Majority Standard Bible
Then His people remembered the days of old, the days of Moses. Where is He who brought them through
the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is the One who set His Holy Spirit among them,

New American Bible
Then they remembered the days of old, of Moses, his servant: Where is the one who brought up
out of the sea the shepherd of his flock? Where is the one who placed in their midst his holy spirit,

NET Bible
His people remembered the ancient times. Where is the one who brought them up out of the sea,
along with the shepherd of his flock? Where is the one who placed his holy Spirit among them,

New Revised Standard Version
Then they remembered the days of old, of Moses his servant. Where is the one who brought them up
out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is the one who put within them his holy spirit,

New Heart English Bible
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them
up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put his holy Spirit in their midst?

Webster's Bible Translation
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them
out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

World English Bible
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying, “Where is he who brought them
up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put his Holy Spirit among them?”

Young's Literal Translation
And He remembereth the days of old, Moses -- his people. Where is He who is bringing them up
from the sea, The shepherd of his flock? Where is He who is putting in its midst His Holy Spirit?

 

[HeIsHere]

Sin is the transgression of the Law. Depravity is the inability to do anything righteous. Only evil. And Calvinistic Total Depravity from TULIP is just baloney.

Agree!
I wish this false teaching would go away.

 

[Magenta]

Depravity is the inability to do anything righteous. Only evil.

Not true, and you have been corrected on this erroneous definition, but are adamantly unteachable.

Total depravity is an acknowledgement that as a result of the fall of man, his mind, will, emotions and
flesh have been corrupted by sin. How any Christian can claim the Bible does not teach this is beyond me.
You may as well say people are not born lost, dead to God. Come to think of it, I have seen that said, too

 

[HeIsHere]

Sin is the transgression of the Law. Depravity is the inability to do anything righteous. Only evil. And Calvinistic Total Depravity from TULIP is just baloney.

Let's see what Calvin had to say....


...our nature is not only destitute of all good, but is so fertile in all evils that it cannot remain inactive. Those who have called it concupiscence have used an expression not improper, if it were only added, which is far from being conceded by most persons, that everything in man, the understanding and will, the soul and body, is polluted and engrossed by this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that man is of himself nothing else but concupiscence. (Institutes, Vol. I, Bk. II, Chap. 1, Para. 8; Allen translation.)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Not true, and you have been corrected on this erroneous definition, but are adamantly unteachable.

That is not my definition but since you love this false teaching let me post exactly what it found in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.

II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.

This is exactly how I have summarized the false teaching of Total Depravity -- "wholly inclined To all evil". Now is this true or false? IT IS UTTERLY FALSE.

Was Job for example "wholly inclined to all evil" and "wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body"? Let's see: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. (Job 1:1)

So Calvinistic Total Depravity is a totally depraved doctrine.

 

[HeIsHere]

That is not my definition but since you love this false teaching let me post exactly what it found in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.

II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.

This is exactly how I have summarized the false teaching of Total Depravity -- "wholly inclined To all evil". Now is this true or false? IT IS UTTERLY FALSE.

Was Job for example "wholly inclined to all evil" and "wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body"? Let's see: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. (Job 1:1)

So Calvinistic Total Depravity is a totally depraved doctrine.

This is really quite disturbing (the red) ... "wholly inclined to all evil"

Good point about Job and many others in scripture.

Again as with all of TULIP, a very superficial understanding of scripture.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So one must first be made alive in order to believe, believing is active, which denotes life, but there is no life while dead before being quickened/saved. So believing Faith is resultive of having been quickened, made alive.

Thanks for CONTRADICTING Scripture. Anyone can see that you are refusing to accept the truth and continue to love the lies. Let's post another Scripture which refutes your claim )John 1:12,13): But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So which comes first the believing or the New Birth? The answer is obvious except to those who deliberately twist the Scriptures. And no one can be born again unless the gift of the Holy Spirit is given first. But the Holy Spirit is only given to those who repent and believe (Acts 2:38).

 

[Magenta]

That is not my definition but since you love this false teaching let me post exactly what it found in the :

This is exactly how I have summarized the false teaching of Total Depravity -- "wholly inclined To all evil". Now is this true or false?

It is true of the Westminster Confession of Faith. I do not have that view, and neither do many others, including
Arminians. If you are incapable of forming views independent of such narrow parameters, that is on you.

I gave numerous Scriptures that support my view.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It is true of the Westminster Confession of Faith. I do not have that view, and neither do many others, including Arminians. If you are incapable of forming views independent of such narrow parameters, that is on you.

Actually all non-liberal Reformed and Presbyterian churches require their members to believe and hold to the teachings of the Westminster Confession. Are you a member of such a church? If so go and talk to the pastor and confirm what I have said. So those "narrow parameters" are exactly what Reformed Theology represents.