Can a Christian lose salvation?

[ZNP]

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 

[Papermonkey]

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Those verses from Romans aren't saying we can lose our salvation.
They're referring to the nation of Israel.
Romans 9 refers to Israel of the past. Chapter 10 to contemporary Israel. Chapter 11,future Israel.

We can never lose our Salvation. God bestowed it by his choice. If we can do something to lose that, it isn't Salvation.

 

[ZNP]

Those verses from Romans aren't saying we can lose our salvation.
They're referring to the nation of Israel.
Romans 9 refers to Israel of the past. Chapter 10 to contemporary Israel. Chapter 11,future Israel.

We can never lose our Salvation. God bestowed it by his choice. If we can do something to lose that, it isn't Salvation.

Yes, Paul is referring to Israel as a cautionary tale to the rest of us. Israel were the people of God, chosen, and yet they were broken off while we the Gentiles were grafted in. We are simply branches, we aren't the root or the trunk. So nothing is stopping God from pruning us if necessary and Paul says the same, if God broke off the natural branches then of course He might cut off the branches that were grafted in.

 

[Papermonkey]

Yes, Paul is referring to Israel as a cautionary tale to the rest of us. Israel were the people of God, chosen, and yet they were broken off while we the Gentiles were grafted in. We are simply branches, we aren't the root or the trunk. So nothing is stopping God from pruning us if necessary and Paul says the same, if God broke off the natural branches then of course He might cut off the branches that were grafted in.

Romans 11 tells us Israel can be grafted in again.
Acts 2 shows us how many of the nation were.

God is true to his word. Disciplining son's and daughter's of God isn't losing Salvation. Hebrews 12

 

[Inquisitor]

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

About time someone quoted those verses.

 

[Inquisitor]

Those verses from Romans aren't saying we can lose our salvation.
They're referring to the nation of Israel.
Romans 9 refers to Israel of the past. Chapter 10 to contemporary Israel. Chapter 11,future Israel.

We can never lose our Salvation. God bestowed it by his choice. If we can do something to lose that, it isn't Salvation.

You can definitely do something to lose your salvation.

Forgetting about Jesus, is exactly how you lose your salvation.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved.

 

[Papermonkey]

You can definitely do something to lose your salvation.

Forgetting about Jesus, is exactly how you lose your salvation.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved.

In my journey I have learned it to be folly to debate legalists.

 

[ZNP]

Those verses from Romans aren't saying we can lose our salvation.

The Bible says what it means and means what it says. Not interested in doctrines that try to explain away Bible verses.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Absolutely, Amen

If I go into a court of law and someone pays my debt and the judge pronounces me not guilty, am I then at liberty to go out and commit more crimes and thumb my nose at the judge and my benefactor? Being pronounced not guilty at a certain point doesn't hold for future crimes. If this is true of a human court how much more for God's court?

 

[mailmandan]

No, Judas did not lose faith in Jesus. You cannot lose what you never had...

Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

 

[mailmandan]

You have judged "people" as teaching sinless perfection. Would you back up this judgement of "people" by quoting someone who you say does this. Christ did this, but I have seen people accused of it, but never have I seen anyone who actually did this except Christ.

Christ told us what to do about our sin, Christ repeated it so you wouldn't miss it or wonder about how sin in our life affects their walk with Christ as a Christian. Christ said "repent". Christ wanted us to try our best to follow our Father, for when Christ taught to greet all people with the acceptance the Father has, Christ said in Mathew 5:48-- Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect

Are you a member of the Christianity Board? You can read their posts for yourselves there. I will quote some of these folks who promote sinless perfection:

GENREV2 - Do you claim to be 100% without any sin, like Christ, from moment to moment 24/7..?
Michiah-Imla - Yes.

Episkopos - Do you believe you can walk like Jesus without sin? Access into that salvation walk by grace is through faith. When we enter INTO Christ we put on His perfection. We walk as He walked. Of course, very few will do this. Jesus said that few would enter into the narrow way and walk the narrow path. Any unbeliever can claim to be in their own sinful strength. That's true. As long as we are not PERSONALLY covered by grace...we will sin. When we sin it shows we are still under the law. What law? The law of sin and death.

Bible Highlighter - The Bible does teach that it is possible to be perfect and to sin no more - if you believe the Bible.

Peterlag - I cannot sin because I'm born again.

There are more, but this is sufficient.

Those who promote sinless perfection will often cite Matthew 5:48, in which Jesus says: “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Sinless perfectionists will then claim that we “must” be as perfect as God the Father (implying sinless perfection) if we are to be saved. However, that is not what the passage is saying. In context, this passage is talking about love.

Matthew 5:43 - "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Jesus is talking about how to love properly, the way God does. The teaching is that to love as God does, we should also love those who don’t love us back, even love those who hate us. Jesus calls this kind of love "perfect" love. The word used for "perfect" in this passage is "teleios" and the definition is: Fully developed. Mature in mental & moral character. Full development, growth into maturity of godliness. Signifies consummate soundness, and includes the idea of being whole. Jesus is saying that to have fully developed mature love, as God desires, we must love our enemies. That is a lot different than saying to be saved you have to be perfect, sinless, without fault or defect, flawless in every way, as sinless perfectionists teach.

 

[mailmandan]

Romans 11 tells us Israel can be grafted in again.
Acts 2 shows us how many of the nation were.

God is true to his word. Disciplining son's and daughter's of God isn't losing Salvation. Hebrews 12

The Israelites were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:23-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off."

Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot for example (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers, just as we see in (1 John 2:19).

 

[Snacks]

The pattern I see with many people who believe salvation can be lost is their faith is in themselves rather than Jesus Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

The pattern I see with many people who believe salvation can be lost is their faith is in themselves rather than Jesus Christ.

Self preservation over God's preservation stems from faith in self.

 

[John146]

If I go into a court of law and someone pays my debt and the judge pronounces me not guilty, am I then at liberty to go out and commit more crimes and thumb my nose at the judge and my benefactor? Being pronounced not guilty at a certain point doesn't hold for future crimes. If this is true of a human court how much more for God's court?

Trying to use human reasoning and bad examples to explain scripture? Not for me. I'm in Christ. I have his righteousness. How many times do you get saved in a year? A month? Each day?

 

[John146]

Some people need to grasp this passage.

“For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” Romans 5:6-8.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes.

1 Cor. 15
1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe). Faith was never firmly rooted or established from the start.

Hebrews 3
12See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of unbelief.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Trying to use human reasoning and bad examples to explain scripture?
Not for me. I'm in Christ. I have his righteousness. How many times do you get saved in a year? A month? Each day?

Of course it's a bad example! Any example or explanation of scripture that goes against your beliefs is a bad example. Catch ya later.

 

[John146]

Of course it's a bad example! Any example or explanation of scripture that goes against your beliefs is a bad example. Catch ya later.

Well, instead of sticking with, "what saith the scriptures," you give an example outside of scripture to prove your theology. Is this not a bad way of going about trying to prove your point? That's all I was trying to say.

 

[Magenta]

Dear sister Magenta Ah sister please read (Acts 1:16-17) verse 17 for he was counted among us. Now if you mean were any of the Apostles saved before the death of Jesus you would be correct because in the end all lost their faith!! (Matt 26:56) In fact Peter went back to fishing!!! LOL (John 21:2-11) the difference was that Judas Betrayed!!!(Mark 14:21)

Hello brighthouse98 Yes, Judas was counted among them. How do you interpret that to mean he was saved, or a believer, simply because he walked with them? Jesus called Judas a son of perdition. Do you know what that means? It means Judas was doomed to destruction. No believer is doomed to destruction. In fact, quite the opposite! After Jesus washed the feet of the apostles, Jesus said, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with Me.” ... "And you are clean, though not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him. That is why He said, “Not all of you are clean.” If Judas had faith, he would have been cleansed, just as we are. But he was not.

2 Corinthians 7:10