Can a Christian lose salvation?

[mailmandan]

Ditto, but all of your points on many things in the Bible contradict the scripture.

For me it's quite simple how exegesis works: if the Bible says it then I believe it. See how easy that is? Jesus told the 12 disciples that they would have 12 thrones and eternal life. What's so hard about that? Jesus gave the 12 authority over demons and authority to heal and then they went and did it. What's so hard about that?

Where you go off the rails is actually the very things you're claiming I do. Your claim is Judas didn't follow Jesus which is false. Judas was a disciple... he was a student, a learner, a follower. You're claiming Judas didn't get eternal life when Jesus said he did. You're claiming because they went out "two by two" then that means Judas was somehow not given any authority. I don't know if you knew this, but having a partner in the gospel isn't required for God to use someone to cast out demons and heal the sick.

Keep this passage in mind:

Matthew 7
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So do you know the difference between a true and false disciple? It isn't just being a believer, like Judas, then everything is hunky dory, it's about doing God's will. Do you honestly know what God's will is?

Your exegesis culminates in eisegesis. I already explained to you that Jesus told the 12 disciples you who have followed me would have 12 thrones and eternal life. Jesus did not personally promise Judas a throne and eternal life and he was replaced by Matthias. Jesus knew that Judas was a devil. The authority and power to cast out demons and to heal the sick came from Jesus' and not from the disciples.

You go off the rails by making numerous assumptions and ignoring the greater context of everything that is spoken about Judas. There were multiple so called disciples of Jesus who set out to be students, learners and followers of Him, yet after hearing something that was hard for them to accept, they turned away and walked with Jesus no more and Jesus understood why. (John 6:64) They were not genuine believers, just like those in John 2:23-25 and John 8:31-59 and also just like Judas. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

I am fully aware of Matthew 7:21-23. I often hear works-salvationists cite this passage and claim that these many people were genuine believers who lost their salvation because they worked iniquity.

In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, (I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church) I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, oh my goodness! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that obtaining salvation is based on works.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

*John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ - Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) was stained with sin. Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts. Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in unbelievers, but He see's all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ.

 

[posthuman]

I have heard it put this way:

'if salvation was a basketball, Satan would strip it out of our hands before we even realized we'd had it passed to us'


Clearly salvation is not a basketball.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

op: Can a believer "lose" salvation?
Depends IF the following theory is Biblical OR not:

'Jesus "ALWAYS knew" His saved ones,' and then 'when they lost it' "He NEVER
knew them"'. Does this make Perfect sense to the critics? Notwithstanding:

What Saith The True Scriptures?: ​

1) The LORD JESUS CHRIST "Has ALWAYS Known them who Are HIS Own":

2Ti 2:19a "Nevertheless The Foundation of God Standeth Sure,​

Having This Seal, The LORD Knoweth them that Are His..."​

+

Eph 1:4a "According as He Hath Chosen us In Him before the​

foundation of the world,.."​

​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

2) The LORD JESUS CHRIST "Has NEVER Known them who Are

'NOT' HIS Own":​

"Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the​

kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth The Will of My Father which​

is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we​

not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils?​

and in Thy Name done many wonderful works? And then will I​

profess unto them, I Never Knew you: depart from Me, ye that​

work iniquity." (Mat 7:21-23)​

​

Seems Plain And CLEAR to me. You?
=====================
Precious friend(s):

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

 

[Cameron143]

'if salvation was a basketball, Satan would strip it out of our hands before we even realized we'd had it passed to us'


Clearly salvation is not a basketball.[/QUOTE]
Maybe it's a football and it just keeps getting fumbled.

 

[HeIsHere]

And what happens if at any point someone abandons the faith?

Jesus states He goes and finds the lost sheep.

You know arguing about whether Judas was saved is outside the realm of what scripture really reveals and so the arguments on either side have no merit.

 

[Runningman]

1. Jesus chose Judas. Luke 6:13
2. Judas was told he would have a throne and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:27-29
3. Judas was referred to as a believer. John 6:69
4. Judas was given authority to cast of demons and heal the sick. Mark 6:7-13
5. Judas was given authority over demons and to heal this sick which are gifts for those who believe. Mark 16:17,18
6. Judas was given to Jesus by God and was lost. John 17:12
7. Judas left the apostolic ministry to go where he belonged. Acts 1:25

This is clear. Judas was chosen, was told he would inherit eternal life, was called a believer by Peter and Jesus didn't deny it, was given authority to cast out demons which is something Jesus said only believers can do, was lost, and left the apostolic ministry via hanging himself. Judas most likely lost his salvation. That means OSAS is a false doctrine and a false gospel.

Galatians 1
8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

 

[Runningman]

Jesus states He goes and finds the lost sheep.

You know arguing about whether Judas was saved is outside the realm of what scripture really reveals and so the arguments on either side have no merit.

Seems you haven't read the parable. Finding the sheep isn't guaranteed.

Matthew 18
10Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

 

[mailmandan]

1. Jesus chose Judas. Luke 6:13
2. Judas was told he would have a throne and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:27-29
3. Judas was referred to as a believer. John 6:69
4. Judas was given authority to cast of demons and heal the sick. Mark 6:7-13
5. Judas was given authority over demons and to heal this sick which are gifts for those who believe. Mark 16:17,18
6. Judas was given to Jesus by God and was lost. John 17:12
7. Judas left the apostolic ministry to go where he belonged. Acts 1:25

This is clear. Judas was chosen, was told he would inherit eternal life, was called a believer by Peter and Jesus didn't deny it, was given authority to cast out demons which is something Jesus said only believers can do, was lost, and left the apostolic ministry via hanging himself. Judas most likely lost his salvation. That means OSAS is a false doctrine and a false gospel.

Galatians 1
8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

1. Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.....John 6:64-71
2. Judas was spiritually unclean......John 13:11
3. Judas is lost and is the son of perdition.........John 17:12
4. Judas was not kept by Jesus........John 17:12; 18:9
5. Judas was a traitor.....Luke 6:16
6. Judas was a betrayer.....Multiple verses.
7. Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor........John 12:6
8. Judas was guilty of a greater sin.......John 19:11
9. Judas was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.......John 13:2
10. Judas was entered by Satan.......Luke 22:3
11. Judas kills himself......Matthew 27:5
12. Judas' habitation to be desolate......Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25

That is clear and your eisegesis is not clear. I find it interesting that you make the same arguments about Judas that other 'works-salvationists' make as well. Red flag. So what you are saying is that if someone believes in OSAS, they believe a false gospel and won't be saved? If that's the case, you just placed all believers in the OSAS camp under God's curse. (Galatians 1:6-9) That judgment call is well above your pay grade and it also makes me seriously question your belief system in regards to salvation.

So what do YOU believe the gospel IS and what do YOU believe that it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16)

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Some works are things you do such as obeying God. Other times works refers to works of the Law. The New Testament doesn’t always clearly differentiate between those two kinds of works, so the different kind of works are often conflated and/or confused… to much peril and debate.

Law-keeping does not save people because no one can keep the law perfectly. In that sense works cannot save.

Going the extra mile, being a Good Samaritan, walking the strait and narrow path, obeying God, loving your neighbor, loving God, believing in Jesus, and water baptism are works and those are the works that save.

Gotcha and I knew it! I knew that something was seriously flawed with your belief system and now I have pinpointed the main source of your error. You teach salvation by works. That explains a lot!

 

[Runningman]

1. Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.....John 6:64-71
2. Judas was spiritually unclean......John 13:11
3. Judas is lost and is the son of perdition.........John 17:12
4. Judas was not kept by Jesus........John 17:12; 18:9
5. Judas was a traitor.....Luke 6:16
6. Judas was a betrayer.....Multiple verses.
7. Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor........John 12:6
8. Judas was guilty of a greater sin.......John 19:11
9. Judas was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.......John 13:2
10. Judas was entered by Satan.......Luke 22:3
11. Judas kills himself......Matthew 27:5
12. Judas' habitation to be desolate......Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25

That is clear and your eisegesis is not clear. I find it interesting that you make the same arguments about Judas that other 'works-salvationists' make as well. Red flag. So what you are saying is that if someone believes in OSAS, they believe a false gospel and won't be saved? If that's the case, you just placed all believers in the OSAS camp under God's curse. (Galatians 1:6-9) That judgment call is well above your pay grade and it also makes me seriously question your belief system in regards to salvation.

So what do YOU believe the gospel IS and what do YOU believe that it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16)

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

I agree with scripture, just obviously not your false doctrines. This isn't personal to me, I am sure you are a good guy and I love you, but you're way off base. All of the rebukes and red flags you're assigning to me, I feel the exactly the same about what you're saying. I think this is where we just need to "split the church" so to speak and go separate ways.

When or if you are ready to receive the truth, I am always here. I don't ever turn anyone away.

 

[Runningman]

Gotcha and I knew it! I knew that something was seriously flawed with your belief system and now I have pinpointed the main source of your error. You teach salvation by works. That explains a lot!

And I've pinpointed your errors and problems, you don't believe in the Bible, the pure word of God, but instead defer to religious dogma and denominational teachings.

Works are required. I want to make sure I expose all of your errors so you will hear someday "Remember that Runningman fellow on Christian Chat told you about these things and you rejected them? Well, now let's talk about them." Glory to God.

John 6
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Acts 26
20First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

Romans 2
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Philippians 2
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

2 Thessalonians 2
11With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may bring to fruition your every desire for goodness and your every deed prompted by faith.

James 2
14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[mailmandan]

And I've pinpointed your errors and problems, you don't believe in the Bible, the pure word of God, but instead defer to religious dogma and denominational teachings.

Your true colors are obvious.

Works are required. I want to make sure I expose all of your errors so you will hear someday "Remember that Runningman fellow on Christian Chat told you about these things and you rejected them? Well, now let's talk about them." Glory to God.

So how many works does it take?

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 1:9 - who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

John 6
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:29 is simply a play on words by Jesus when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?"

So Jesus was not saying that believing is just "another work" in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works, which would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith and works - "saved through faith, not works."

Acts 26
20First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

Works/deeds are the demonstrative evidence that we have repented. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but good works are not the means or basis by which we obtain eternal life. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

Romans 2
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, it's imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages of scripture convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Philippians 2
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have.

The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

2 Thessalonians 2
11With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may bring to fruition your every desire for goodness and your every deed prompted by faith.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 - on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. 11 With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may bring to fruition your every desire for goodness and your every deed prompted by faith. 12 We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Nothing there about salvation by works. 1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

James 2
14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith, but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[Runningman]

Your true colors are obvious.

So how many works does it take?

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 1:9 - who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

John 6:29 is simply a play on words by Jesus when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?"

So Jesus was not saying that believing is just "another work" in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works, which would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith and works - "saved through faith, not works."

Works/deeds are the demonstrative evidence that we have repented. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but good works are not the means or basis by which we obtain eternal life. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, it's imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages of scripture convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have.

The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 - on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. 11 With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may bring to fruition your every desire for goodness and your every deed prompted by faith. 12 We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Nothing there about salvation by works. 1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith, but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

I just provided you the passages that say you gotta do something. This is just a drop in the bucket. From Genesis to Revelation, all of the prophets keep saying do something.

Your true colors are showing. Mailmandan seems to be saying "Do nothing."

Please show me a verse that just plainly hits the bottom line of your thesis: "Do nothing."

 

[mailmandan]

I just provided you the passages that say you gotta do something. This is just a drop in the bucket. From Genesis to Revelation, all of the prophets keep saying do something.

Your true colors are showing. Mailmandan seems to be saying "Do nothing."

Please show me a verse that just plainly hits the bottom line of your thesis: "Do nothing."

Straw man argument. I never said that believers should 'do nothing' after they have been saved by faith, yet believers are saved FOR good works (and NOT BY good works) that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Now show me a verse in the Bible that says we are "saved by works.*

 

[Runningman]

Straw man argument. I never said that believers should 'do nothing' after they have been saved by faith, yet believers are saved FOR good works (and NOT BY good works) that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Now show me a verse in the Bible that says we are "saved by works.*

It isn't a straw man because it got you to say what I wanted you to say. So you do believe in works after all. Good to demonstrate you can't keep any consistency.

And you aren't understanding Ephesians 2:8-10.

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

What isn't from yourself is the salvation: you can't save yourself, but God can save you if you meet His conditions or do the work He requires. That's how no one can boast about granting themselves salvation. Therefore, we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works and you better do them too. Now you should be able to understand the verses I showed you about salvation by doing good.

Please tell me what happens to a creation that doesn't serve its purpose? Is it bringing the Creator glory? Is it sinning if it doesn't do the good work it was created to do? As a creator, imagine your invention failed you. It would be scrapped and redesigned.

 

[mailmandan]

It isn't a straw man because it got you to say what I wanted you to say. So you do believe in works after all. Good to demonstrate you can't keep any consistency.

I believe in/have faith in Christ for salvation and not in works. We are not saved by works, but FOR good works. Big difference.

And you aren't understanding Ephesians 2:8-10.

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

What isn't from yourself is the salvation: you can't save yourself, but God can save you if you meet His conditions or do the work He requires. That's how no one can boast about granting themselves salvation. Therefore, we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works and you better do them too. Now you should be able to understand the verses I showed you about salvation by doing good.

It's you who doesn't understand.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; 9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] 10 For we are God’s [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

Please tell me what happens to a creation that doesn't serve its purpose? Is it bringing the Creator glory? Is it sinning if it doesn't do the good work it was created to do? As a creator, imagine your invention failed you. It would be scrapped and redesigned.

Refusing to believe the gospel is the ultimate failure that results in condemnation. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) Apart from that, attempting to do good is in vain. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) So even though we are not saved by good works, those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. (Titus 3:8)

 

[Runningman]

It's you who doesn't understand.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; 9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] 10 For we are God’s [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

Is this the amplified Bible? It's actually partially correct, but then it contradicts itself in one of the bracketed points. The grace is accessed by our faith, meaning that it's actually "merited favor" if there is a prerequisite to access this grace.

I can see how this false definition of grace has enabled people to believe they can't lose their salvation. However, the word grace in no way shape or form is defined as unmerited favor or that would really be salvation without any work required at all.

Here's the real definition of grace:

G5485. charis
charis: grace, kindness
Original Word: χάρις, ιτος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: charis
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ece)
Definition: grace, kindness
Usage: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

Paul confirms grace is access through faith again in Romans 5.

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Refusing to believe the gospel is the ultimate failure that results in condemnation. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) Apart from that, attempting to do good is in vain. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) So even though we are not saved by good works, those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. (Titus 3:8)

Since I proved you are using a corrupted version of the amplified Bible, don't you think you might want to root out anything false you believe and repent for spreading it to others? This is serious. Don't read the amplified Bible. You just need the brain God gave you, some humility, a desire to seek God's glory, and respect for the written word.

 

[mailmandan]

Is this the amplified Bible? It's actually partially correct, but then it contradicts itself in one of the bracketed points. The grace is accessed by our faith, meaning that it's actually "merited favor" if there is a prerequisite to access this grace.

I can see how this false definition of grace has enabled people to believe they can't lose their salvation. However, the word grace in no way shape or form is defined as unmerited favor or that would really be salvation without any work required at all.

Here's the real definition of grace:

G5485. charis
charis: grace, kindness
Original Word: χάρις, ιτος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: charis
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ece)
Definition: grace, kindness
Usage: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

Paul confirms grace is access through faith again in Romans 5.

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Since I proved you are using a corrupted version of the amplified Bible, don't you think you might want to root out anything false you believe and repent for spreading it to others? This is serious. Don't read the amplified Bible. You just need the brain God gave you, some humility, a desire to seek God's glory, and respect for the written word.

There is nothing in that translation that implies grace is merited. You proved nothing and you sound more like a lawyer than a Berean. What is serious is your "works based" false gospel and its time for you to repent.