Why Do We Pretend to know when JESUS was BORN?
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As for the Church of Rome: it is one of the most corrupt organizations on the Planet and the doctrines are not based on Scripture e.g. salvation is works based and not on faith. If you dispute this you may want to check out the many articles and youtube videos of R C Sproul on the topic.
I've given you my view about the annual Remembrance on Nisan 14 which replaced the Passover. If you want to read more into Scripture than that which is there, well that's a matter for you...just as the clergy in the Church of Rome do when it comes to the issue of salvation.
My comments about 'clergy' on the issue of Christmas apply equally to the Protestant and Church of Rome.
So, how do you know that ALL i.e. both of them i.e. Karl and Groucho had never heard of St Nikolaus? And given that you referred to Nikolaus with the title St. ....how do you know he was actually a Saint? Who decides who is and who isn't a saint? Is it humans who make that decision? Or is it God?
I don't disagree with this at all. If you had ever read any of my posts you would know that I don't want to be associated with anything that has to do with the RCC... I don't understand why you even brought that up.
I just wanted to know who you were referring to when you referenced "the clergy".
K
kaylagrl
Guest
I believe he was a Christian bishop. But that isn't the point, nor whether saints is a Protestant or Catholic thing, or right or wrong. The point is there was a man named Nicholas who gave gifts and the American Santa Claus is based on the person. Who Marx knew or didn't know isn't the point. People in the BDF really seem to have a hard time sticking to the point.
I believe Christ was born on Kislev 25th, which is Hannukah, and roughly corresponds to our December. He was conceived on Nisan 14th, which roughly corresponds to March 25th, and was believed to be the Creation Date. Nine Months later, Dec. 25th, He was born. Both St. Augustine in the West and St. Chrysostom in the East hand down this date in the 4th Century. Also, Zechariah was mostly ministering as a Priest round Yom Kippur, or the Day of Atonement, which is usually in late September, when John the Baptist was conceived. Six months later would be March, when Christ. So the date fits with that also.
Explained in more detail here: https://onepeterfive.com/dates-years-birth-death-christ/
"First Point: John the Baptist was conceived around late September of 3 B.C. near the Day of Atonement.
A Hebrew calendar shows that the Day of Atonement (also called Yom Kippur) was on Sep. 19, 3 B.C. It is the contention of this article that the Baptist was conceived around this time, when St. Zachary was ministering in the Temple. In other words, the story of our salvation began on the ancient Day of Atonement commanded by God, which is fitting. It is here that the Gospel events recorded by St. Luke in chapter 1 really begin to take off.
1:5 “There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zachary, of the course of Abia; and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elizabeth.”
As Dr. Marshall explains, a course of Abia occurs in September, and there is evidence in this passage to suggest that the time is around the Day of Atonement, when the high priest goes into the holy place, as we read in Ex. 30:10, Lev. 16:3, Heb. 9:7, etc.
Second Point: Jesus Christ Our Lord was conceived around six months after St. John the Baptist.
Moreover, we know from the same chapter that Our Lady conceived Christ about six months after St. Elizabeth conceived the Baptist. For the Angel says (36), “And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: [37] Because no word shall be impossible with God.”
Now, if the Baptist was conceived in late September, Christ the Lord would have been conceived in late March. Similarly, we can reasonably deduce that the Baptist would be born around late June, nine months after conception.
Third Point: Therefore, Christ Our Lord was conceived on March 25, 2 B.C. and born Dec. 25, 2 B.C.
It is an interesting point that “the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, that is, the month of Kislev” (1 Mac. 4:22) was already held in honor as a Festival of Light. It is the Feast of Dedication in winter mentioned by St. John (10:22). The Hebrew calendar begins in March-April in Nisan, so its ninth month roughly comes to our twelfth month, December, in most years. It is highly fitting that the 25th day of the 12th month on the Christian calendar should have been set apart for Christ, “The Light of the World” (Jn. 8:12), to make His entrance into the world.
The Baptist being born in late June, as shown in the Second Point, Christ Our Lord certainly would have been born around late December. The witness of Tradition, of very early historical Tradition, is clear on this point.
Bp. Theophilus (115–181 A.D.) stated: “We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen.”
Saint Hippolytus (170–240 A.D.) wrote: “The First Advent of our Lord in the flesh occurred when He was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, a Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, which is five thousand and five hundred years from Adam.”
St. Augustine finally confirms: “But he was born, according to Tradition, upon December the 25th.”
In sum, Our Lord’s date of birth: Dec. 25, 2 B.C. Our Lord’s date of crucifixion: April 3, 33 A.D.
Therefore, the first Easter: April 5, 33 A.D. The 50th day, the first Pentecost: May 24, 33 A.D.
Explained in more detail here: https://onepeterfive.com/dates-years-birth-death-christ/
"First Point: John the Baptist was conceived around late September of 3 B.C. near the Day of Atonement.
A Hebrew calendar shows that the Day of Atonement (also called Yom Kippur) was on Sep. 19, 3 B.C. It is the contention of this article that the Baptist was conceived around this time, when St. Zachary was ministering in the Temple. In other words, the story of our salvation began on the ancient Day of Atonement commanded by God, which is fitting. It is here that the Gospel events recorded by St. Luke in chapter 1 really begin to take off.
1:5 “There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zachary, of the course of Abia; and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elizabeth.”
As Dr. Marshall explains, a course of Abia occurs in September, and there is evidence in this passage to suggest that the time is around the Day of Atonement, when the high priest goes into the holy place, as we read in Ex. 30:10, Lev. 16:3, Heb. 9:7, etc.
Second Point: Jesus Christ Our Lord was conceived around six months after St. John the Baptist.
Moreover, we know from the same chapter that Our Lady conceived Christ about six months after St. Elizabeth conceived the Baptist. For the Angel says (36), “And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: [37] Because no word shall be impossible with God.”
Now, if the Baptist was conceived in late September, Christ the Lord would have been conceived in late March. Similarly, we can reasonably deduce that the Baptist would be born around late June, nine months after conception.
Third Point: Therefore, Christ Our Lord was conceived on March 25, 2 B.C. and born Dec. 25, 2 B.C.
It is an interesting point that “the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, that is, the month of Kislev” (1 Mac. 4:22) was already held in honor as a Festival of Light. It is the Feast of Dedication in winter mentioned by St. John (10:22). The Hebrew calendar begins in March-April in Nisan, so its ninth month roughly comes to our twelfth month, December, in most years. It is highly fitting that the 25th day of the 12th month on the Christian calendar should have been set apart for Christ, “The Light of the World” (Jn. 8:12), to make His entrance into the world.
The Baptist being born in late June, as shown in the Second Point, Christ Our Lord certainly would have been born around late December. The witness of Tradition, of very early historical Tradition, is clear on this point.
Bp. Theophilus (115–181 A.D.) stated: “We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen.”
Saint Hippolytus (170–240 A.D.) wrote: “The First Advent of our Lord in the flesh occurred when He was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, a Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, which is five thousand and five hundred years from Adam.”
St. Augustine finally confirms: “But he was born, according to Tradition, upon December the 25th.”
In sum, Our Lord’s date of birth: Dec. 25, 2 B.C. Our Lord’s date of crucifixion: April 3, 33 A.D.
Therefore, the first Easter: April 5, 33 A.D. The 50th day, the first Pentecost: May 24, 33 A.D.
The first part of the article explains how we arrive at the year of Christ's Death. Luke's Gospel says John the Baptist began his Ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius. Now, Tiberius is known to have reigned from 14 A.D. So 15th year is 29 A.D. 3 1/2 years of Ministry of Christ later, He was put to Death on Pascha, or Passover. Hence, 30 A.D. is not correct and 33 A.D. stands.
"The Dates and Years of the Birth and Death of Christ
It is common to hear some people propose that Our Lord was crucified as early as 30 A.D. and born as early as 4 B.C. They also claim He was not born in December and have proposed all sorts of other dates for His birth. Is there any truth to these claims? In the below article, we will deduce, step by step, the dates and years of the birth and the death of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
First Point: Our Lord Jesus began His ministry after the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar (29 A.D.).
The Gospel tells us plainly (Lk. 3:1): “Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and Philip his brother tetrarch of Iturea, and the country of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilina; [2] Under the high priests Annas and Caiaphas; the word of the Lord was made unto John, the son of Zachary, in the desert.”
This gives us a wealth of historical information. We independently know that (1) Pontius Pilate was governor of Judaea from 26 to 36 A.D. (2) Tiberius Caesar begin to reign in the year 14 A.D. The fifteenth year of his reign is therefore 29 A.D. (3) Caiaphas also remained high priest until 36 A.D.
We therefore have solid dates for the beginning of St. John the Baptist’s ministry of baptism. Our Lord Jesus Himself, being baptized around 30 years of age, soon began to preach the Gospel.
Luk 3:22: “And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape, as a dove upon him; and a voice came from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. [23] And Jesus himself was beginning about the age of thirty years; being (as it was supposed) the son of Joseph, who was of Heli, who was of Mathat.” Our Lord was 30 in 30 A.D. He couldn’t have been crucified in that year.
Point Two: The Ministry of Our Lord lasted three years. Therefore, Our Lord wasn’t crucified in 30 A.D.
The Gospel of St. John notes that three Passovers were completed during the ministry of Our Lord.
Jn. 2:13 “And the pasch [likely 31 A.D.] of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.”
Incidentally, Bp. Eusebius and other Church Fathers tell us that the Synoptics mostly record only the third year of Christ’s preaching. Thus, John the Baptist is captured early (Mt. 4:12; Mk. 6:17; Lk. 3:20). But St. John the Apostle, who wanted to write about Christ’s early miracles, begins at Cana.
Jn. 6:4: “Now the pasch, the festival day of the Jews [likely Passover 32 A.D.], was near at hand.”
We see the second Pasch that passes during Christ’s ministry. This alone is sufficient to rule out a 30 A.D. date for Our Lord’s Death. Our Lord was killed on the Passover of 33 A.D., as we shall see.
Jn. 11:55: “And the pasch of the Jews was at hand [the final Pasch of Christ’s Life, in 33 A.D.]; and many from the country went up to Jerusalem, before the pasch to purify themselves.”
Point Three: Our Lord was crucified (in our Christian calendar) on April 3, 33 A.D. at 3:00 P.M.
We further know from the Gospel writers that Our Lord was crucified at 3:00 P.M.: “Matthew, Mark, and Luke each record that Jesus died about ‘the ninth hour’ (Matthew 27:45-50, Mark 15:34-37, Luke 23:44-46).”
With some historical calculations, we can see that Nisan 14 (the Jewish Passover date) fell on April 3 in 33 A.D. Therefore, the time of Our Lord’s crucifixion and death was April 3, 33 A.D. at 3:00 P.M. (ninth hour).
First Things has a similar calculation. Live Science considers also the earthquake St. Matthew (27:54) reports.
Similarly, with Our Lord’s crucifixion date fixed, we can work backward to see when Our Lord Jesus was born.
How? Since if Christ Our Lord was 30 around 29 or 30 A.D. and died in 33 A.D. after 30 years of life and a further three and a half years of ministry, it is evident He could not have been born in 4 B.C. or any time earlier, but only in 1 B.C. or 2 B.C. If He was 33 on Nisan 14, 33 A.D., as we have seen, He was born in 1 B.C. if born before April, or in 2 B.C. if born after April. Since He was born in December, as we will see, He was born in 2 B.C.
(Recall also that there is no year 0 B.C. 1 B.C. goes to 1 A.D. Being 33 in April, 33 A.D. requires a 2 B.C. birth.)"
"The Dates and Years of the Birth and Death of Christ
It is common to hear some people propose that Our Lord was crucified as early as 30 A.D. and born as early as 4 B.C. They also claim He was not born in December and have proposed all sorts of other dates for His birth. Is there any truth to these claims? In the below article, we will deduce, step by step, the dates and years of the birth and the death of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
First Point: Our Lord Jesus began His ministry after the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar (29 A.D.).
The Gospel tells us plainly (Lk. 3:1): “Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and Philip his brother tetrarch of Iturea, and the country of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilina; [2] Under the high priests Annas and Caiaphas; the word of the Lord was made unto John, the son of Zachary, in the desert.”
This gives us a wealth of historical information. We independently know that (1) Pontius Pilate was governor of Judaea from 26 to 36 A.D. (2) Tiberius Caesar begin to reign in the year 14 A.D. The fifteenth year of his reign is therefore 29 A.D. (3) Caiaphas also remained high priest until 36 A.D.
We therefore have solid dates for the beginning of St. John the Baptist’s ministry of baptism. Our Lord Jesus Himself, being baptized around 30 years of age, soon began to preach the Gospel.
Luk 3:22: “And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape, as a dove upon him; and a voice came from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. [23] And Jesus himself was beginning about the age of thirty years; being (as it was supposed) the son of Joseph, who was of Heli, who was of Mathat.” Our Lord was 30 in 30 A.D. He couldn’t have been crucified in that year.
Point Two: The Ministry of Our Lord lasted three years. Therefore, Our Lord wasn’t crucified in 30 A.D.
The Gospel of St. John notes that three Passovers were completed during the ministry of Our Lord.
Jn. 2:13 “And the pasch [likely 31 A.D.] of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.”
Incidentally, Bp. Eusebius and other Church Fathers tell us that the Synoptics mostly record only the third year of Christ’s preaching. Thus, John the Baptist is captured early (Mt. 4:12; Mk. 6:17; Lk. 3:20). But St. John the Apostle, who wanted to write about Christ’s early miracles, begins at Cana.
Jn. 6:4: “Now the pasch, the festival day of the Jews [likely Passover 32 A.D.], was near at hand.”
We see the second Pasch that passes during Christ’s ministry. This alone is sufficient to rule out a 30 A.D. date for Our Lord’s Death. Our Lord was killed on the Passover of 33 A.D., as we shall see.
Jn. 11:55: “And the pasch of the Jews was at hand [the final Pasch of Christ’s Life, in 33 A.D.]; and many from the country went up to Jerusalem, before the pasch to purify themselves.”
Point Three: Our Lord was crucified (in our Christian calendar) on April 3, 33 A.D. at 3:00 P.M.
We further know from the Gospel writers that Our Lord was crucified at 3:00 P.M.: “Matthew, Mark, and Luke each record that Jesus died about ‘the ninth hour’ (Matthew 27:45-50, Mark 15:34-37, Luke 23:44-46).”
With some historical calculations, we can see that Nisan 14 (the Jewish Passover date) fell on April 3 in 33 A.D. Therefore, the time of Our Lord’s crucifixion and death was April 3, 33 A.D. at 3:00 P.M. (ninth hour).
First Things has a similar calculation. Live Science considers also the earthquake St. Matthew (27:54) reports.
Similarly, with Our Lord’s crucifixion date fixed, we can work backward to see when Our Lord Jesus was born.
How? Since if Christ Our Lord was 30 around 29 or 30 A.D. and died in 33 A.D. after 30 years of life and a further three and a half years of ministry, it is evident He could not have been born in 4 B.C. or any time earlier, but only in 1 B.C. or 2 B.C. If He was 33 on Nisan 14, 33 A.D., as we have seen, He was born in 1 B.C. if born before April, or in 2 B.C. if born after April. Since He was born in December, as we will see, He was born in 2 B.C.
(Recall also that there is no year 0 B.C. 1 B.C. goes to 1 A.D. Being 33 in April, 33 A.D. requires a 2 B.C. birth.)"
If there was an award for information density, you would easily win.
I hope you know I am merely jesting. I appreciate the effort you expend and am edified as you share.
But how cool would a density award be?
Just so you know Xavier, I am currently lobbying admin on behalf of a density emoji and am issuing a site wide call for any who desire to submit an entry.
Disclaimer: any and particularly all parts of this post may lack veracity.
Hi Cameron. That article written by yours truly for One Peter Five was the fruit of years of research. In college, I too told my Christian friends, in one of our Ecumenical Prayer Groups: "The probability that Jesus was born on Christmas is only 1/365" - meaning it was uncertain and unknown and just a random date. That was some 12 years ago. Reading and Study, and Prayer and Discovery, along with God's Grace, I think, changed my mind. There is historical evidence for the Christmas date. God Bless.
Your information seems well researched and if I ever am moved to research the issue further I wouldn't be opposed to sourcing your material. But be honest, weren't you a little amused that your research has Christ being born Before Christ?
materialism in His NAME.
GOD made sure we didn't have a real date for It. Did the wise men come back every year?
constantine injected the beast into The Church and mixed in pagan ideas because he wanted unity. Dec 25 was originally a pagan holiday date.
i think Scripture only gives us birthdays of evil people. the king that killed John The Baptist, the guy that did the abomination of desecration did it on his birthday
...and i think pharaoh was the first to celebrate his own birthday each year.
GOD made sure we didn't have a real date for It. Did the wise men come back every year?
constantine injected the beast into The Church and mixed in pagan ideas because he wanted unity. Dec 25 was originally a pagan holiday date.
i think Scripture only gives us birthdays of evil people. the king that killed John The Baptist, the guy that did the abomination of desecration did it on his birthday
...and i think pharaoh was the first to celebrate his own birthday each year.
Pretty much. I bet the Catholics have a good chuckle over all the separated Protestant brothers and sisters who return to mother Rome each year for Christ's Mass.
90 mins of Songs of Praise to Our Lord Jesus with some 1.7 MN views - all about materialism, right? wrong.
I've only read your exchanges with me and responded as it seemed from your comment that you were citing the Church of Rome clergy to support your view that the Remembrance of the Lord's Supper isn't to be interpreted as an annual event.
Well, the central point is whether or not Christmas is a festival that originated in Christianity.
And whilst I've read many comments supporting the view that it's acceptable for Christians to participate in that event I've no read one hard fact or line of evidence that the festival originated in Christianity. I've asked a number of people if they can cite Scriptural proof of Jesus and His apostles celebrating the event. But of course nobody can produce that proof because it does not exist.
It seems to me that since it's called Christmas (Christ-mas) it's clearly Christ centric.
I doubt that people of other faiths and religions would create a holy day for a group that they weren't part of...
ergo that would indicate that Christmas was indeed created for Christians, by Christians.
I doubt that people of other faiths and religions would create a holy day for a group that they weren't part of...
ergo that would indicate that Christmas was indeed created for Christians, by Christians.
The Logos aka the Word came onto the world scene and manifested in human form as Jesus Christ and with THE purpose of being the sacrificial Lamb of God for THE purpose of the salvation of fallen corrupt men and women who would accept His free gift and rightful Sovereignty.
For that reason Paul wrote to Christians to remember that event, namely, the occasion of Jesus Christ being sacrificed on Nisan 14 which coincided with the old covenant annual remembrance of Passover.
That event is THE event that Paul - under inspiration of the Holy Spirit - instructed Christians to participate in as an annual Remembrance.
Let's say you adopt a baby girl from a complicated background, and they never could tell her actual birthdate. So the "Godless" officials of the Child Welfare department responsible for her care before you adopted her put in all the legal paperwork and gave her January (or May) 1 as her birthday.
Would it be "scripturally sound" if you celebrated her BD on January (or May) 1?
[Pagans (some) celebrate on December 24-26 at the Equinoxes and at January 1 and May 1 (not to mention a series of other dates on the Gregorian calendar).]
Colossians 2:8-10 (New American Standard Bible)
8 See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world, [a]rather than in accordance with Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made [b]complete, and He is the head [c]over every ruler and authority;