Here's a good little book by a former tongue speaker who left the tongues movement. 17 Reasons Why I left The Tongues Movement.pdf by Alfred H. Pohl.
Speaking in Tongues
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... it has not passed away
at present says Paul we know in part. we see as it were through a glass darkly. This is still the case.
That which is perfect has not yet come.
P
Polar
Guest
Only to him with his confused grasp of the true faith.
It's so sad to watch, so much energy wasted to disprove His truth.
First of all love the church, love your brothers and sisters. Remember that in the matter of sharing the gospel God will work with them and make up for their frailty.
I am often embarrassed by the church, still love 'em though. We are the weak and foolish ones who God has chosen.
Look you are not so well versed in NT scripture as Paul was, he wrote most of it. It is God's word spoken through Paul written in scripture that we are following. "I would that ye did all speak in tongues .... earnestly desire the higher gifts, especially that ye might prophesy"
God wishes that YE did speak in tongues
There is no later word in scripture which commands that we should no longer desire the gifts. We must go by what scripture says not by what we see or hear. Or by assumings and speculations by John MacArthur.
Tongues is a PRECIOUS gift. How can speak so lightly about any gift that God would give you? oh how can you?
It is valuable. With praying in tongues comes edification. I have experienced this. Often times our prayers are limited by our mind TAKE THIS LIMIT OFF.
There is a book called "Chasing the dragon" a girl [now woman] who I knew jumped on a boat going to Hong Kong [only crazy Holy Ghost folk do these things] her name is Jackie Pullinger. She ended up in the walled city in Hong Kong in the middle of the fearsome Triad drug lords that ran the vice gang. Murderers Prostitutes Drug dealers. It was a hell hole.
And she was a middle class english girl.
When she disciplined herself to pray in tongues every day,, things started to happen, whereas before she was stymied and all at sea suddenly she found herself always in the right place at the right time meeting the right people for her purposes which was to win souls. Where she had tried getting these boys off drugs by de-tox and failing miserably. Now she laid hands upon them and saw them miraculously delivered by the mighty power of God.
So many boys and girls were saved she came to the notice of the Triad gang boss. She got abducted and brought to him for a "meet."
The guy exuded evil. He was a responsible for executions and cruel beatings, the people were terrified of this man.
Some how, on some level, this guy knew this english girl had a power in her life that was greater than his own. He tried to make a deal with her offering protection which she declined. Though she declined, this guy did send protection for her social club which had become the hub of her ministry.
Read the book. I know Jackie personally, I know it is true. It began with praying in tongues.
Here's something I've already posted that you may have not seen that I'll repost for you.
REPOST
The subject of spiritual gifts is difficult to understand, hence very controversial, and equally difficult to unravel.
First, look at the way Paul began the Corinthian letter starting at 1 Cor1:10 wherein he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Cor; and keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some future event. And note that the church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned of in Heb 6 as well.
You have to first ask yourself what is "that which is perfect"? It's not referring to Jesus or his return, Jesus is not a "that".
The answer can be found in Eph 4:13 wherein it states 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, that being the perfection of the body of Christ: this then addressing the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the gifts, parts of the body as equated to the body of a man, noted in 1 Cor 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need such miraculous piece meal parts of the body. Also note, the interlinear says "should come" not "is come" which also supports the idea of the possible replacing of something permanent for the temporal nature of the gifts.
The "face to face" and "known as we are known" relates to the distinction between the OT writings when reading Moses, and coming to Christ via the NT and the comparison to the veil when reading Moses, and we now, and they then, being able to look into a glass (mirror) and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.
To piece it all together, you must consider the gifts and their need at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify and grow it, such as by tongues, being a sign to unbelievers, miracles, prophesy, etc.
I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Gal 3, and Eph 4. Look closely at the similarity of words and phraseology used and piece those similar words and phrases together to get an understanding of their meaning as relates to the subject.
1 Cor 12:8-27
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
14For the body is not one member, but many.
19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1 Cor 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
2 Cor 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Gal 3:23-25
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Eph 4:11-16
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
OK but dear sir you cannot say that the church today [or at any time in her history] has improved on what she was then. We have not come to a unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.
We still see as through a glass darkly we still know only in part.
I think the perfect Paul speaks about is the kingdom of God, when He comes, so it is still Christ, seeing He is the King. We shall see Him face to face praise His name forever.
We have the scriptures and the scriptures encourages us to speak in tongues and to earnestly seek the gifts of the Spirit
First of all, thank you for the lengthy reply. I dare say that I barely deserve such attention.
I agree that I am not so well versed in the Bible as was Paul. Yes, he wrote the majority of the New Testament, but he knew, perhaps better than anyone, how to relate the Old Testament to the New Testament. At least, Paul's writings indicate such a notion. And so this is why I tend to ask questions, and when the questions are not answered, I make reasonable judgments. Are those conclusions always correct? No, they're not.
I don't claim to know the Scriptures as well as some indicate that they do. In fact, there is no concept that I am ever willing to say that I 100% understand, and if I say that I do not 100% understand a concept, then I cannot force ideas onto another. That said, when I see people speaking out of both sides of their mouths, that is an easy conclusion to formulate.
Have any of you ever considered that I might present certain ideas to you "all" so that it might cause you to think? Do you feel that I leave ideas open for discussion or do you feel that I am more of a "thus sayeth the Lord" type of person? In my opinion, the last thing that I do is present myself as a "thus sayeth the Lord," which happens to be the approach of many, here. I don't play that game as I respect our Almighty, Powerful God . . . I live each day in acknowledgment that I may be wrong about Scripture. I wonder how many others are willing to openly acknowledge that they, too, may be wrong?
i have found this to be wonderfully true in my prayer walk with our Lord Jesus Christ.
Brother OPEN the eyes of your mind to SEE what you posted:
You posted = "The subject of spiritual gifts is difficult to understand, hence very controversial, and equally difficult to unravel."
This reasoning comes from satan and is right out of the Garden where the Serpent said: "Did God really say..."
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Part 2
Dear Brother OPEN your mind to SEE what you posted:
"First, look at the way Paul began the Corinthian letter starting at 1 Cor1:10 wherein he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Cor; and keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some future event."
from your Post above:
satan's location of attack = "keep in mind"
satan's seed of deception = "this was written to them in their time"
satan's venom injected, the lie = "written....not to us"
The TRUTH = 1 Corinthians 1:1-3
Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy,
together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The TRUTH = Acts 2:38-39
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
The TRUTH
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:"
Biblically, the early Christians were so ABSORBED BY THEIR FAITH that they sold everything, eliminated their individualism, and apparently lived together 7/24/360 in a communal situation so that they could function together as evangelists to bring salvation to the masses around them.
TODAY, the color of the carpet in the sanctuary appears to be a primary concern.
Part 3
Brother OPEN your mind to SEE what you have posted:
satan's lie #3 = "You have to first ask yourself what is "that which is perfect"? It's not referring to Jesus or his return, Jesus is not a "that".
The TRUTH
You therefore must be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect. - Matthew 5:48
He/JESUS is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature,
and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, - Hebrews 1:3
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
TRUE PERFECTION with NO equal
Part 4
satan's lie #4 - "The "face to face" and "known as we are known" relates to the distinction between the OT writings when reading Moses, and coming to Christ via the NT and the comparison to the veil when reading Moses, and we now, and they then, being able to look into a glass (mirror) and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image."
The TRUTH - 1 Corinthians 13:12
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face.
Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
We are spirit, soul, and body.
Scripture tells of how God is a Spirit, and is to be worshiped in spirit and in truth.
When we pray in the Spirit, our spirit communicates with His Spirit.
When we pray NOT from our spirit, we pray from the soulish realm, missing the mark in how He proscribed that we worship Him.
It's that easy to understand.
best wishes
Scripture tells of how God is a Spirit, and is to be worshiped in spirit and in truth.
When we pray in the Spirit, our spirit communicates with His Spirit.
When we pray NOT from our spirit, we pray from the soulish realm, missing the mark in how He proscribed that we worship Him.
It's that easy to understand.
best wishes
Noted... But spiritually and doctrinally, we're the same as they were. 1 Cor 14 applies to us today, just as it applied to them.
I understand your points about the Corinthian church. However, they do not change the truth that Paul describes concerning tongues.
Paul's comments in 1 Cor. 14 address specifics concerning the manifestation of tongues for different purposes. Since all scripture is inspired by God, all must be accepted. (2 Tim. 3:16) It is through rightly dividing ALL of the word of truth that one can expect to receive revelation.
As scriptures confirm, one manifestation pertains to all. And provides evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:1-4, 38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7) After being indwelt, individuals who speak in tongues are involved in prayer, via their renewed spirit and the Spirit of God. Such prayer is for the purpose of personal edification . (1 Cor 14:2, 4) Paul both prayed and sang in unknown tongues. (1 Cor. 14:14-15) Surely one can see this was a personal experience between he and His God; he was loving on His Lord.
Whereas the other manifestation is for the purpose of presenting God's edifying message to a church body comprised of various individuals. The message is then revealed, through an individual operating in the gift of interpretation. Not all operate in these spiritual gifts; the Lord distributes them as needed to the servants of His choosing.
Paul actually confirms this distinction between tongues as recorded in verses 18 and 19 of the chapter. Paul says he is thankful to God that he speaks in tongues more than others and then says something very important. YET while in church he would rather speak words of understanding, indicating speaking in tongues in church should be limited unless a person is present that God uses in the gift of interpretation.
Note that not one scripture had to be ignored when rightly dividing the word of truth. The confirming scriptures are as follows.
"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." (1 Cor 14:2)
"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying." (1 Cor. 14:4-5)
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." 1 Cor 14:14-15
"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." 1 Cor. 14:19
Paul said he thanked God that he spoke in tongues more than those of the Corinthian church. And made the distinction between the two manifestations when he pointed out that he prayed in tongues, and sang in tongues. But WHEN in church he would rather speak words the could be understood. Meaning if no one was present who operated in the gift of interpretation.
P
Polar
Guest
ooops
always they forget that Paul said do not forbid speaking in tongues
they are so busy doing that very thing, they have no time to look a little further
When Jesus returns tongues will no longer be necessary since we will speak with Him face to face.