Speaking in Tongues
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Please see the below repost of mine fir your consideration from another forum regarding this topic which also addresses the question of what is "that which is perfect ".
The subject of spiritual gifts is difficult to understand, hence very controversial, and equally difficult to unravel.
First, look at the way Paul began the Corinthian letter starting at 1 Cor1:10 wherein he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Cor; and keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some future event. And note that the church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned of in Heb 6 as well.
You have to first ask yourself what is "that which is perfect"? It's not referring to Jesus or his return, Jesus is not a "that".
The answer can be found in Eph 4:13 wherein it states 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, that being the perfection of the body of Christ: this then addressing the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the gifts, parts of the body as equated to the body of a man, noted in 1 Cor 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need such miraculous piece meal parts of the body. Also note, the interlinear says "should come" not "is come" which also supports the idea of the possible replacing of something permanent for the temporal nature of the gifts.
The "face to face" and "known as we are known" relates to the distinction between the OT writings when reading Moses, and coming to Christ via the NT and the comparison to the veil when reading Moses, and we now, and they then, being able to look into a glass (mirror) and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.
To piece it all together, you must consider the gifts and their need at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify and grow it, such as by tongues, being a sign to unbelievers, miracles, prophesy, etc.
I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Gal 3, and Eph 4. Look closely at the similarity of words and phraseology used and piece those similar words and phrases together to get an understanding of their meaning as relates to the subject.
1 Cor 12:8-27
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
14For the body is not one member, but many.
19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1 Cor 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
2 Cor 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Gal 3:23-25
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Eph 4:11-16
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
The subject of spiritual gifts is difficult to understand, hence very controversial, and equally difficult to unravel.
First, look at the way Paul began the Corinthian letter starting at 1 Cor1:10 wherein he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Cor; and keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some future event. And note that the church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned of in Heb 6 as well.
You have to first ask yourself what is "that which is perfect"? It's not referring to Jesus or his return, Jesus is not a "that".
The answer can be found in Eph 4:13 wherein it states 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, that being the perfection of the body of Christ: this then addressing the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the gifts, parts of the body as equated to the body of a man, noted in 1 Cor 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need such miraculous piece meal parts of the body. Also note, the interlinear says "should come" not "is come" which also supports the idea of the possible replacing of something permanent for the temporal nature of the gifts.
The "face to face" and "known as we are known" relates to the distinction between the OT writings when reading Moses, and coming to Christ via the NT and the comparison to the veil when reading Moses, and we now, and they then, being able to look into a glass (mirror) and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.
To piece it all together, you must consider the gifts and their need at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify and grow it, such as by tongues, being a sign to unbelievers, miracles, prophesy, etc.
I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Gal 3, and Eph 4. Look closely at the similarity of words and phraseology used and piece those similar words and phrases together to get an understanding of their meaning as relates to the subject.
1 Cor 12:8-27
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
14For the body is not one member, but many.
19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1 Cor 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
2 Cor 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Gal 3:23-25
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Eph 4:11-16
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
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No He doesn't. God wants everyone to love Him, He wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (have everlasting life) (Eze 33:11).
People have the free will to decide to believe the gospel or not. I am aware that you disagree, I have read your thread on the subject.
...this is off-topic for this thread. Sorry.
People have the free will to decide to believe the gospel or not. I am aware that you disagree, I have read your thread on the subject.
...this is off-topic for this thread. Sorry.
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What's the difference between Christians in the first century and Christians today?
Sorry you were offended. I admit it was a bit of hyperbole.
Sorry you were offended. I admit it was a bit of hyperbole.
Just above, I was asking a "brother" a simple question, made evident by the question mark at the end of the sentence. Remarkably, it was converted into an accusation. Its enough to make a person's head spin.
You do seem to be ignoring the scriptures I gave...
So did God do it? Did the Israelites and all their descendants love God with all their heart and soul? No, they didn't. They started forgetting God almost right away. The whole book of Judges is about Israel sinning, then crying out to God to deliver them. Over and over. What about the period of the kings? Did Israel and all their descendants love God during the reign of all their kings? No they didn't. Several of the kings were downright wicked.
In the millennial kingdom everyone will know God.
So did God do it? Did the Israelites and all their descendants love God with all their heart and soul? No, they didn't. They started forgetting God almost right away. The whole book of Judges is about Israel sinning, then crying out to God to deliver them. Over and over. What about the period of the kings? Did Israel and all their descendants love God during the reign of all their kings? No they didn't. Several of the kings were downright wicked.
In the millennial kingdom everyone will know God.
i believe the sequence is the key to it all.
it all begins with the Holy Spirit:
1. 10 .......For the Ruach searches all things—even the depths of God.
there's many reasons why it is vital that the Holy Spirit searches us and God.
2. 2:4 ........>began to speak with other tongues<, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
3. 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
4. 14:4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves.
5. Jude:20 But you, loved ones, continue building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Ruach ha-Kodesh.
1. Holy Spirit searches us and God
2. Holy Spirit gives us the Utterance to Speak in Tongues
3. Speaking in Tongues only speaks to God and is uttering mysteries to God
4. then the one Speaking in Tongues is Edified
5. and it is a Faith Builder
the Holy Spirit searches our needs and intercedes through Tongues or Groaning:
8:26 .......>For we do not know how to pray as we should<, but the Ruach itself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words.
it all begins with the Holy Spirit:
1. 10 .......For the Ruach searches all things—even the depths of God.
there's many reasons why it is vital that the Holy Spirit searches us and God.
2. 2:4 ........>began to speak with other tongues<, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
3. 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
4. 14:4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves.
5. Jude:20 But you, loved ones, continue building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Ruach ha-Kodesh.
1. Holy Spirit searches us and God
2. Holy Spirit gives us the Utterance to Speak in Tongues
3. Speaking in Tongues only speaks to God and is uttering mysteries to God
4. then the one Speaking in Tongues is Edified
5. and it is a Faith Builder
the Holy Spirit searches our needs and intercedes through Tongues or Groaning:
8:26 .......>For we do not know how to pray as we should<, but the Ruach itself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words.
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I agree with those passages that you have offered, such as how God doesn't want the wicked to go to hell. I can certainly understand why God would feel that way. But just because God feels that way about those who were not His from before the foundation of the world should disqualify Him from feeling something for them. And maybe what I just wrote is juvenile . . . but we have to find a way to believe all Scripture. All of it needs to be harmonized, thus it is easier to work with Deut 30:6 and work downward, as Deut 30:6 is a dominant passage that outlines Purpose, Work, and Effect (which happens to be the basis of the Gospel). This means that I need to harmonize passages such as:
Ezekiel 33:11 NLT - "As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die?"
I don't ignore any passages of the Bible. In fact, to ensure that I have proper perspective, I am eager for others to show me things that I was unaware of. What matters is the Truth . . . I could care less about being right . . . I just want the full Truth.
I hear what you're saying, but hang on. The Blessing described in Deut 30:6 above is the Blessing given to Abraham, our Father of Faith. Deut 30:6 is described more thoroughly, in fact step-by-step in Colossians 2:9-15. It reads as follows:
Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."
The above Seven Perfect verses are meant only for the Vine of Christ . . . exclusively. So those Holy Words written in Deut 30:6 are for the Vine exclusively. And Deut 30:6 is the fulfillment of Exodus 33:19, which reads as follows:
Exodus 33:19 KJV - "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
But back to Abraham, our Father of Faith . . . he is our prime example of receiving such Grace and Mercy through the Lord's Effectual Calling:
Genesis 17:1 KJV - "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect."
Above, God wasn't asking, but instead, the Lord was instilling. Just a few verses further into chapter 17, the Covenant of circumcision was established in Abrahams's life. This is where it is discussed that if anyone rejects this circumcision, they are to be cut off from the family. And that's how it is today, anyone who refuses to learn of, know and fully understand Spiritual Circumcision shall remain cut off from the Family of Spiritual Circumcision.
Anyway, this is about Tongues. We need to be respectful and stay on topic.
Ezekiel 33:11 NLT - "As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die?"
I don't ignore any passages of the Bible. In fact, to ensure that I have proper perspective, I am eager for others to show me things that I was unaware of. What matters is the Truth . . . I could care less about being right . . . I just want the full Truth.
I hear what you're saying, but hang on. The Blessing described in Deut 30:6 above is the Blessing given to Abraham, our Father of Faith. Deut 30:6 is described more thoroughly, in fact step-by-step in Colossians 2:9-15. It reads as follows:
Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."
The above Seven Perfect verses are meant only for the Vine of Christ . . . exclusively. So those Holy Words written in Deut 30:6 are for the Vine exclusively. And Deut 30:6 is the fulfillment of Exodus 33:19, which reads as follows:
Exodus 33:19 KJV - "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
But back to Abraham, our Father of Faith . . . he is our prime example of receiving such Grace and Mercy through the Lord's Effectual Calling:
Genesis 17:1 KJV - "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect."
Above, God wasn't asking, but instead, the Lord was instilling. Just a few verses further into chapter 17, the Covenant of circumcision was established in Abrahams's life. This is where it is discussed that if anyone rejects this circumcision, they are to be cut off from the family. And that's how it is today, anyone who refuses to learn of, know and fully understand Spiritual Circumcision shall remain cut off from the Family of Spiritual Circumcision.
Anyway, this is about Tongues. We need to be respectful and stay on topic.
Sure, it could apply! Look, I place no restrictions upon the Lord. Furthermore, I have no True idea if the gift of Tongues is extant or not. What I know is what I know, such as acknowledging that I do NOT have the Gift of Tongues. Because I do NOT possess this Gift, I leave room for the possibility of its reality. And I also know that after 55 years of life in the "church," I've never met anyone with this Gift that didn't have serious emotional issues or guilty of living a pretty gnarly and sinful life. And what I also know is this . . . no one has ever told me how such a gift has strengthened them.
1 Corinthians 14:4 NLT - "A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church."
To be fair, I asked the most fair question to someone in this thread along the lines of, "Can you tell us how this Gift has helped or enhanced your life/relationship with God?" The reply was that there was no effect. You asked if 1 Cor 14:4 would apply and I say yes, but this person's response was there there was no Effect.
"A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally . . ."
Then why isn't anyone giving the Holy Spirit any credit for their strengthened, which means Transformed, life?
Hey, ya'll can fight me, but I asked the honest question . . . but if you guys can't answer it, don't be so thin-skinned and upset with me. At some point, you guys need to start answering questions and stop interjecting wild ideas to avert what is obvious.
1 Corinthians 14:4 NLT - "A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church."
To be fair, I asked the most fair question to someone in this thread along the lines of, "Can you tell us how this Gift has helped or enhanced your life/relationship with God?" The reply was that there was no effect. You asked if 1 Cor 14:4 would apply and I say yes, but this person's response was there there was no Effect.
"A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally . . ."
Then why isn't anyone giving the Holy Spirit any credit for their strengthened, which means Transformed, life?
Hey, ya'll can fight me, but I asked the honest question . . . but if you guys can't answer it, don't be so thin-skinned and upset with me. At some point, you guys need to start answering questions and stop interjecting wild ideas to avert what is obvious.