Is faith a work?

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awelight

awelight

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#121
posthuman said:
doesn't this mean, faith is a work of God? i.e. God works it in us.
((oh yes i know that irks the Arminianist))

and in John 6, Christ seems to be telling them, stop thinking about your own efforts, but believe in Him who was sent to save.
the beginning of wisdom is to fear/respect God: part of that is comprehending our absolute insufficiency compared to Him. it's humility. they came to Him asking, how can we be like You? how can we do amazing things too? and He said, the amazing thing is believing in ME. He is our Shepherd; we are His sheep. the sheep shouldn't desire to supplant the Shepherd, but love Him, and follow Him.

the work of God is to prostrate ourselves before God, not to imagine we are coequal with Him. we're not coequal in terms of our salvation; He saves us & we have no capability to save ourselves - that is why He is the One who does it. we are not coequal in terms of the good works He saves us into; He works in us because we have no capability of our own to be good, as He is good. that is why He is the One who does it. we have no capability to justify ourselves before Him, to be upright before Him: he is the One who works these things in us and for us. all glory is His: i cast my crown at His feet

only when we submit all before Him and attribute all goodness to Him in humility, do we do 'good works' -- IMO, any work we attribute to our own desire, will & effort, is not a 'good' work. only the works that He is solely given reverence for, are good.
so i say, if any good thing comes from my conversation here, it isn't me, but Christ who works in me
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You know, this reminds me of the ole' joke, about the preacher asking the man if he had anything to do with his salvation. The man replied: You betcha! I did all the sinning and God did all the saving.
 
awelight

awelight

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#122
DavidTree said:
Brother Nehemiah6 is correct and the irony of what our LORD said is this:
You cannot work faith - Period.
Faith is also a Gift from God to enable us to Believe on HIM whom the FATHER sent.

Question? = Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Answer with Irony which leads back to Christ being the only means of Salvation.
"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

The LORD is also referring to something else which no one here can SEE - yet.
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You know David - I used to enjoy some of your posts but this is the third time, that I am aware of, where you have made a comment like this:

"The LORD is also referring to something else which no one here can SEE - yet"

Like a little kid with a hidden secret. You can't see it but I can. I know something you don't know. Ha. Ha Ha.

I admonish you brother, this shows pride and boastful character. It in no way follows the mandate of our Lord. To love and edify one another. I hope you give thought to this.
 
Mem

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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Runningman said:
I agree, but who is doing the believing part for us? Are we believing because that’s our desire to do so or because God is making us believe?
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After, idk taking 2 hrs?! to formulate that word study that I posted, it take one joke to almost make me think it was all a waste of time and then I shook off that thought and chose? to believe it was not in vain (and He confirmed, and is pleased) that I searched and found out those truths in grammar that gave me a clear understanding of God's order, request, wish is that we believe in His Son, and obliquing Him this request is what pleases Him. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Hebrews 11:6
 
awelight

awelight

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#124
Runningman said:
I've been reading through these answers. One thing I am certain of is that Jesus meant exactly what He said, despite some people trying to say He meant the opposite of what He said or that He was speaking ironically. I think when we start trying to assign irony to narratives in the Bible based on subjective metrics like "we feel like it's irony" then we have stepped onto a slippery slope then we can start making the Bible say anything we want it to. That'll just lead to division and countless arguments. I prefer the literalists approach as much as possible unless there is a good reason to see symbolism. Jesus doesn't seem to be using any symbols in John 6:28,29.

From what I see in John 6:28,29 is that they asked what they can do to perform the works of God and Jesus said the work of God is that they believe in the One He sent. That doesn't mean God is working to believe in Jesus, but rather the work that God has assigned for sinners is to believe in Jesus. That's how I know for sure that it isn't "God's work" that He's laboring to complete. Nor is God trying to give the gift of faith to Himself. So the work of God is exactly what it says or it would have been referred to as the gift of faith instead.
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The real question here in this OP - is this...

Why did you pose a question about something, to which you are obviously already decided? You ask questions then dispute the answers because they do not meet your narrative. Why act like you do not understand something, when your mind is already made up?
 
Mem

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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awelight said:
To love and edify one another. I hope you give thought to this.
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Believe is a verb, which implies an action, so in that sense it is a work, although it may be argued to be too 'easy' or 'freeflowing' such as waterworks, to be called a work, it's not so easy. How many are discouraged from even 'trying' to consider that salvation may, indeed, be intended for them with the (forgive me if I don't know the nomenclature, I'm not familiar with traditional doctrine categories) position?
 
awelight

awelight

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Mem said:
John 6:28 the word for works (of God) in the Greek is N-ANP, Noun-Accusative Neuter Plural, where the Accusative case marks the direct object of the verb, i.e. work the works. As explained in Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Strong's NT John 6:28 citation: the works required and approved by God.
John 6:29 work (of God) in the Greek is N-NNS, Noun-Nominative Neuter Singular, where the Nominative case is the subject of a verb, namely "is" here. That is, This, that ye believe... is the work of God.

Is Jesus clarifying there is only one work that is left for us to do, to believe or is He saying God does that work?
There's no citation for John 6:29 in the Thayer's help for this "work."

However, if we look at the word for "believe" in 6:29, the Morphology is explained as V-PSA-2P, Verb- Present Subjunctive Active- 2nd Person Plural, where the Subjunctive case of a verb is used after certain expressions that contain an order or a request or wish, and the active voice is used when the subject of the verb performs the action named, which is "believe" in this instance.
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Say Mem, I read your word study you posted but you made no conclusions. What did you get out of that study?
 
Mem

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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#127
My study of the words "works" in John 6:28 and "work" in John 6:29 was inconclusive.

Mem said:
However, if we look at the word for "believe" in 6:29, the Morphology is explained as V-PSA-2P, Verb- Present Subjunctive Active- 2nd Person Plural, where the Subjunctive case of a verb is used after certain expressions that contain an order or a request or wish, and the active voice is used when the subject of the verb performs the action named, which is "believe" in this instance.
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But my study of the usage contained in the word, "believe" in John 6:29 led me to the conclusion that Jesus is expressing an order, request, or a wish and the active voice confirms that "you should" believe." That is the only work given us to do to "do the works of God."
 
A

Adstar

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#128
Jul 24, 2016
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#128
The scriptures establish a barrier between Works and Faith..

Human beings can come up with a definition of Works but if that includes Faith then it is Not a Biblical definition of Works.. Have Faith in the Word of God and trust in the definition of scriptures..
 
Mem

Mem

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#129
Jesus said that one can come to the Father unless He draws them. This brings to my mind a picture of a helpless child, knowing they are helpless to "come to its father" except to lift her arms toward Him. It's the most she can do but, its effective to cause Him to draw her to Him.
 
awelight

awelight

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Mem said:
My study of the words "works" in John 6:28 and "work" in John 6:29 was inconclusive.



But my study of the usage contained in the word, "believe" in John 6:29 led me to the conclusion that Jesus is expressing an order, request, or a wish and the active voice confirms that "you should" believe." That is the only work given us to do to "do the works of God."
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Let me help you out a little. The Greek word translated "believe", should be translated "believing", because it is a Present tense verb. Therefore one is to be in a state of believing. It is in the subjunctive mood, which is "the mood of possibility", as compared to the "Indicative mood", which is the mood of reality. Active voice means, the one who is believing is active or is participating in the action.

Therefore, the verse should be rendered: John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you maybe believing on him whom he hath sent.
 
Mem

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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#131
Adstar said:
The scriptures establish a barrier between Works and Faith..

Human beings can come up with a definition of Works but if that includes Faith then it is Not a Biblical definition of Works.. Have Faith in the Word of God and trust in the definition of scriptures..
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This wrongly assume that those who do not see as you see do not "trust in the definition of scriptures." I don't know what you'd call that except shifty.
 
A

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Jul 24, 2016
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Mem said:
This wrongly assume that those who do not see as you see do not "trust in the definition of scriptures." I don't know what you'd call that except shifty.
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You can see my words as you see my words.. But launching a personal attack against me without refuting my stance is... What?
 
Mem

Mem

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#133
Sep 23, 2014
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awelight said:
Let me help you out a little. The Greek word translated "believe", should be translated "believing", because it is a Present tense verb. Therefore one is to be in a state of believing. It is in the subjunctive mood, which is "the mood of possibility", as compared to the "Indicative mood", which is the mood of reality. Active voice means, the one who is believing is active or is participating in the action.

Therefore, the verse should be rendered: John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you maybe believing on him whom he hath sent.
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You're trying to help me get lost?
 
Mem

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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Adstar said:
You can see my words as you see my words.. But launching a personal attack against me without refuting my stance is... What?
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Idk, what?
 
awelight

awelight

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Mem said:
Jesus said that one can come to the Father unless He draws them. This brings to my mind a picture of a helpless child, knowing they are helpless to "come to its father" except to lift her arms toward Him. It's the most she can do but, its effective to cause Him to draw her to Him.
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In John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

This verse speaks of ability and not permission. When Christ said, No man can come..." (ASV). The Greek text is better translated: "No man is able to come..." This is because of our sinful fallen nature. The Father draws one to Christ by the working of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, indwelling us, works with us, to desire the Truth of the Gospel and the Gospel leads us to Christ.
 
awelight

awelight

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Mem said:
You're trying to help me get lost?
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NO, I am not trying to get you lost. I was trying to help you understand the Greek verb. One should not be surprised that the verb is in the mood of possibility (Subjunctive). because Christ knew they were not genuine believers. So for them, it was a possibility but not yet, a reality.
 
awelight

awelight

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#137
Adstar said:
The scriptures establish a barrier between Works and Faith..

Human beings can come up with a definition of Works but if that includes Faith then it is Not a Biblical definition of Works.. Have Faith in the Word of God and trust in the definition of scriptures..
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I would agree with you. Having or exercising faith is not a work. It is a state of being. We have only two positions. We either do not believe something, so our state is one of unbelief or we believe something, so are in a state of belief. In order to, truly, believe in anything, we must have conviction. No conviction - no real believing because we could change our mind at anytime. One who has been convicted of a truth will not depart from it.
 
Mem

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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#138
awelight said:
NO, I am not trying to get you lost. I was trying to help you understand the Greek verb. One should not be surprised that the verb is in the mood of possibility (Subjunctive). because Christ knew they were not genuine believers. So for them, it was a possibility but not yet, a reality.
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He spoke of the possibility that they believe... yet, it seems you're implying an impossibility.
 
awelight

awelight

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#139
Mem said:
He spoke of the possibility that they believe... yet, it seems you're implying an impossibility.
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That would bring up the verse that teaches: What is not possible with man is possible for God.

Mark 10:26 And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, Then who can be saved?
Mark 10:27 Jesus looking upon them says, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God.

Remember faith/believing is a gift of God.

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

This is why, more times than not, the Greek verb for "believing" will be in the subjunctive mood.
 
A

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Jul 24, 2016
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awelight said:
I would agree with you. Having or exercising faith is not a work. It is a state of being. We have only two positions. We either do not believe something, so our state is one of unbelief or we believe something, so are in a state of belief. In order to, truly, believe in anything, we must have conviction. No conviction - no real believing because we could change our mind at anytime. One who has been convicted of a truth will not depart from it.
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Faith is Trusting .. Faith is trusting God.. I can have personal difficulties with some of Gods teachings in the Bible.. BUT!!! if i trust in Gods wisdom, then i will accept Gods revealed will no matter if i do not understand why God has made a particular teaching or has done something..

The basic point i am making is you don't have to be convinced that each and every teaching of God is perfect, if one has Faith ( Trust ) that Gods decision on the matter is perfect.. Which is it..
 
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