The first thing we should consider is that there are two different faiths; The un-regenerant man only has faith in mankind and his accomplishments. He has no faith in spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14) until he has been born again (eph 2:1-5) with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, he then has spiritual faith which is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.(Gal 5:22). Spiritual faith in Christ is a work of God's sovereign grace given in the new birth.
Is faith a work?
- Thread starter Runningman
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Can someone be born again more than one time and, by implication, die spiritually more than one time?
To my understanding of the scriptures, no one can be born again twice. When a person is born again, spiritually, and he commits a sin against God, he will not lose his spiritual birth, nor his eternal inheritance, but he will lose his fellowship with God, temporary ,until he repents, because God will not fellowship with sin. That is the reason Jesus was in three hours of darkness, by himself, when he took upon himself the sins of those that God had given him. (John 17:2).
James 1:14-15 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed, then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin, and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth "death". Death used figuratively means "a separation", and that separation would be from God's fellowship until he repents. The un-regenerant will never experience a separation from a fellowship that he never had.
God chastens those that he loves and does not chasten the un-regenerant wicked (Ps 73:5).
When I see this discussed I think of this verse.
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Romans 4:5 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/rom.4.5.KJV
Here we see a person who believes and has faith but has no works.
If you read through John 5 and 6 to this point you will find a common theme. The Father is working so that the will believe in his Son.
“Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:19-24 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.5.19-24.KJV
“But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”
John 5:36-37 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.5.36-37.KJV
“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
John 6:45 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.6.45.KJV
The Father was bearing witness of the Son.
In John 6:29 Jesus was simply saying that the work of God was to persuade them to believe in Jesus by testifying to the fact that Jesus was the Christ.
“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
John 6:29 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.6.29.KJV
I think in the case of works the context needs special attention because there are subtle differences in the kind of work various passages are talking about.
The Romans 4:5 verse you quoted is referring to “works of the law.” Which is trying to be righteous by obeying the laws. We know the problem with law keeping is that one transgression of a single point in the law is worthy of a death penalty.
Evidence that the context of Romans 4:5 is about law keeping is in Romans 4:9,10,
Rom 4:9 Therefore, is this blessing for those who are circumcised, or also for those who are uncircumcised? For we say, "Faith was credited to Abraham for righteousness."
Rom 4:10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised but while uncircumcised!
Paul basically said that law keeping is a work that makes someone righteous. “Have faith” was never a commandment in the law of Moses in the Old Testament so having faith isn’t a work of the law in that regard.
Having faith is a work of self-effort.
From the context of John 6:29, Jesus is saying He’s the bread of life sent down from heaven like the mana was sent down from heaven to feed Israel in the desert. Israel in the desert had to go get the mana and eat it to live. Jesus is comparing faith in Him to eating bread. We have to believe in Jesus to live.
John 6:29 basically says that the work God has given us is to believe in His Son. Like mana, we have to actually go consume it. This isn’t a work of the law, but rather a work of self-effort to consume the Bread of Life.
Anyway, that’s just my take on it because that’s my experience. Maybe your experience has been different so your perspective isn’t wrong or anything.
Oops made a typo that completely changes what I meant to say. I meant to say that Paul said that law keeping is not a work that makes someone righteous.
Runningman
I thought of one more piece of evidence that supports the view of John 6:29 that I presented to you. That is the response that Jesus received to his statement in John 6:29.
“They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?”
John 6:30 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.6.30.KJV
Clearly they understood Jesus to have said that God was working to produce belief in them. Not that belief is a Godly work they could do.
On Romans 4:5 consider that in Romans 4:1 the term used is flesh. That term covers any work we do in the flesh not just the law. Abraham of course wasn’t under the law and at the time his faith was counted as righteousness he wasn’t required to be circumcised either.
“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,”
Romans 4:1-6 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/rom.4.1-6.KJV
“And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: he staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; and being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”
Romans 4:19-25 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/rom.4.19-25.KJV
Born again is a commitment to follow Christ and we are born again when baptized. If we brake that commitment then we loose that status. When we repent we re rejoin the ranks of born again. The reason for the Lord's prayer...daily please forgive us of our tresspasses as we forgive our tresspassers...
Being baptized is an action on the part of mankind which is a work. Eternal salvation is not gained by any works that mankind does.
its a work of God not man
eg Jesus Christ had us believe in Him, its not like we had to make up our own version of who He is. Jesus came to earth and the miracles we didnt make up the story ourselves.
Likewise, the holy spirit empowers us, we dont empower ourselves. He is GIVEN to us. We dont buy Him. We just accept and recieve Him.
Ya know wot I mean?
the work of doing what God said to do me you’ll be rewarded is the completion of faith it’s the product of it but is always going to be present to complete faith it’s like the evidence that your faith is there
I’ve realized that this “ saved by faith not works “
doesn’t condtradoct this at all James just further explains the process of how it reconciles within the concept how faith saves us is James point
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”
James 2:21-23 KJV
note faith is based on what God said
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
James is saying when God called Abraham righteous because he believed the promise of isaacs birth and that he would be father of many nations , it was fulfilled when he offered isaac and acted on his faith. Faith still saved James is just teaching us to at faith doesn’t replace the work it makes us able d teaches us the right work to don thy at will save
faith isn’t why we don’t need to do anything , it is hearing what God said and the promise he made with the instruction that is why we do what he teaches us .
he told Abraham to leave his family and country and go to a place he would later show him and That he would bless Abraham if he did Abraham believed so he obeyed by faith
“By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.”
Hebrews 11:8
had Abraham said I believe but I’m not going to go do what you said will bless me it wouldn’t really have been faith is the point or Noah
by faith Noah built an ark as God instructed him , the reason Noah did it is because Noah believed what God said to him about the coming flood and promise he made to begin again with job and his family so he obeyed
he was saved by his faith not the work but fsithbincudes him building e ark because it was at he believed God told him to do it and be saved so he believed and was saved by faith he built the ark by faith even though there was work involved after he heard and believed it led him to the right work that saved him just because he believed Gods warning
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
Hebrews 11:7 KJV
Even though Noah had to build the ark he was heir of the righteousness of faith like Christian’s are. It’s the same always we hear what God promises will save us to Christian’s the gospel offers eternal life if we accept Jesus and his word this means the warnings instructions and blessings and promises to come later but this faith is going tomlewd us to do many thkngs d we need to actually do those things see Paul doesn’t say thy res no work involved
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
Ephesians 2:8, 10 KJV
he’s saying we didn’t do any work that saved us Jesus saved us so we could start doing the right works needing fruit in the kingdom that’s why we’re “ saved “ to hear his word learn and follow that’s faith
If baptism is a work then your next breath is a work.
Wanna try without for a while ?
U r mixing app;es and oranges.
How can the immersion of our fleshly bodies be anything but a work. Consider this:
“It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.”
Hebrews 9:9-10 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/heb.9.10.NKJV
The Greek word translated washings here is baptismois or baptisms. If fleshly ordinances were only to be imposed until the time of reformation then haven’t they ended.
Doesn’t the verse below describe our immersion into Christ.
“In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,”
Ephesians 1:13 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/eph.1.13.NKJV
If we were sealed in him when we believed by the Holy Spirit doesn’t that represent an immersion or baptism into Christ. We see the same thing here:
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.”
I Corinthians 12:13 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/1co.12.13.NKJV
and here:
“For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
Galatians 3:27 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/gal.3.27.NKJV
Immersed into Christ.
Salvation is FREE discipleship [doing the works of God] is costly. The faith whereby we believe on Him for the works of God THROUGH US is free ... but it will entail toil for us in it's outworking.
.... Paul strove and toiled. Not to be saved but to save others.
Sorry the Bible says otherwise. How do you explain the clear words of faith being a work with your reasoning that faith is not a work?
and while we’re at it, perhaps we should elaborate on what a work is exactly since “work” is a Biblical buzzword. How do you view that?