Are Former Christians Who Later Became Murderers and Anti-Christians Still Saved?

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Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,958
5,661
113
#21
There are numerous examples of Christians and their countries who abandon Jesus and God completely.

The peoples of Russia and Germany were once fervant Christians before they changed, become anti-Christs and murderers of innocents on a massive scale.

The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?

The first example I'll give is that of Communist Russia. Russia was a fervently Christian/Orthodox country for centuries. Then came the Communist uprising in which they turned from God/Jesus and became an atheist state. They murdered and persecuted many Christians. Former Christians in Russia fully supported this murder and turning from Jesus!

The second example is Christian Germany. When Hitler came to power, Germany was a Christian nation. But with the Nazis, Jews were hated/persecuted/murdered by the millions. Germans who used to be Christians could no longer accept Jesus and turned from Him. Why? Because Jesus was a Jew and the Nazi Germans couldn't accept a Jew for a God. They invented an Aryanized Jesus who wasn't Jewish at all. The German people turned from Jesus enmasse!

So, the question is, are these examples of peoples who once were true Christians and turned anti-Christ and murderers still saved because they once believed in Jesus?

Did Jesus forgive all these their sins and take them to heaven even though they were unrepentant sinners?
nope.

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭

what your describing is different from Christian who learns they aren’t perfect yet they won’t turn away from Jesus because they know they need him

your talking about this

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

saying once I believe will actually condemn a person who later turns away in disbelief it leaves the no excuse of ignorance when we acknolwedge the truth and then reject it as opposed to not hearing and accepting and understanding it at the first

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


If we didn’t hear Gods word is different from hearing it accepting it and then later rejecting him

all Christian’s struggle through , some persevere in patience and faith , others see it’s not effortless and turn away not finding its value

This can happen when we hear the gospel

“And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

( this can happen when we hear it )

And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.



( this can happen when we hear the word )

and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4:15-17, 19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And then This can happen if we persevere in faith

“And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

notice we don’t have equal fruit that’s produced but there’s fruit some more and some less but the fruit of the gospel is evident in believers after time passes

if we turn back after we confess belief , it’s worse for us than if we hadn’t heard to begin with but we can always repent and turn to him and hold on it’s never too late until it’s too late to repent and believe
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,577
9,094
113
#22
Once saved always saved is one of the most harmful doctrines ever to infect the body of Christ.
Can NOT be more harmful than teaching Jesus is incapable of keeping His born again children saved! Or, teaching that YOU, have to keep YOURSELF saved.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#23
There are numerous examples of Christians and their countries who abandon Jesus and God completely.

The peoples of Russia and Germany were once fervant Christians before they changed, become anti-Christs and murderers of innocents on a massive scale.

The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?

The first example I'll give is that of Communist Russia. Russia was a fervently Christian/Orthodox country for centuries. Then came the Communist uprising in which they turned from God/Jesus and became an atheist state. They murdered and persecuted many Christians. Former Christians in Russia fully supported this murder and turning from Jesus!

The second example is Christian Germany. When Hitler came to power, Germany was a Christian nation. But with the Nazis, Jews were hated/persecuted/murdered by the millions. Germans who used to be Christians could no longer accept Jesus and turned from Him. Why? Because Jesus was a Jew and the Nazi Germans couldn't accept a Jew for a God. They invented an Aryanized Jesus who wasn't Jewish at all. The German people turned from Jesus enmasse!

So, the question is, are these examples of peoples who once were true Christians and turned anti-Christ and murderers still saved because they once believed in Jesus?

Did Jesus forgive all these their sins and take them to heaven even though they were unrepentant sinners?
or how about Spain with the Spanish inquisition?

Only with Israel did God deal with people as a nation or tribe. In the gospel age each person is either saved or not. Everyone who is or was Catholic is not saved or Orthodox or Baptist.

Every person who is truly saved must receive their new birth PERSONALLY from the Lord.

Many [catholics, orthodox, Baptists, Pentecosts] will say to Him on that day "Lord did not we [catholics, orthodox, baptists, pentecosts] cast out devils in Thy name and do miracles" ... but He will say "depart from Me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you"
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,883
1,862
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#24
1 John 2: 18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.


20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.


22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

A person who claims to have been saved and latr become an anti christ was never saved period.

As for murderers.. let he who has no sin cast the first stone. Take care of your own house before you start judging someone else..
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
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London
christianchat.com
#25
I need to add one more thing to the doctrine of eternal security. We all know that those who have never believed will be condemned and be cast into the LOF. But that's not really the issue.

As the OP laid out, what about those who believed at one time and then, for whatever reason, left the faith. Arminians are quick to say that they are now unbelievers and therefore will be condemned as an unbeliever.

But, is this true? Does the Bible teach this? No, it doesn't.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses teach the same thing. Those who "have not believed" will be condemned. So, what does that mean? It means that those who "have not believed" have NEVER believed.

So, both verses clearly state that condemnation will be for those who NEVER believed.

So, whatever the future holds (Rom 8:38), cannot remove one's salvation. Once a person is given the gift of eternal life (Jn 5:24, 10:28), Jesus said that recipient shall never perish.

However, Arminians view eternal security as an encouragement to live it up and sin like hell. Well, like coins, our eternal security has 2 sides as well.

Heads: faithful and obedient believers will be blessed in time and rewarded in eternity. :)

Tails: faithless and disobedient believers will lose blessings in time and lose reward in eternity and WILL FACE God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11). :cry:

This is no small potatoes. Paul explained WHY "many of the believers in Corinth were weak and sick, and a number of them had died". It was for abuse of the Lord's table. However, the principle is the same for any disobedience/unfaithfulness. Misery.

So, to my Arminian brothers, no one gets away with anything! If they lose faith, or get into open rebellion and sin, whether you can see it or not, they ARE miserable. They may deceive themselves by all the "fun" they may be having, but in their tiny little brains, they are NOT happy or content. For this reason, many simply "party harder" in order to feel better, which won't work, of course.

At some point, if God allows them to live miserably long enough, they, like the idiot prodigal, will "come to their senses" and confess their sins, and repent (turn back to the Lord). :)

To my Calvinist brothers, Jesus clearly indicated that a believer may not persevere in the faith. Luke 8:13 and the second soil. Too many Calvinists simply dismiss that person as one who never believed "savingly". Unfortunately, no Calvinist can convincingly explain what that means. The Bible never speaks of an unsaving faith or belief in Christ.

I know, I know. You'll pull up 1 Cor 15:1-3. The words "in vain" in the Greek mean "without reason". iow, all faith must have an object in which to believe or trust in. If there is no object of faith, there is no salvation.

The very object of faith in Christ is for salvation, meaning avoiding the LOF and living with God forever.

There. I think that covers everything.
The words "in vain" means they received the knowledge of the truth but were not saved by it ... lot of folks like that
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#29
There are numerous examples of Christians and their countries who abandon Jesus and God completely.

The peoples of Russia and Germany were once fervant Christians before they changed, become anti-Christs and murderers of innocents on a massive scale.
Just because the leaders of a country abandon God, doesn't mean the people have. Our country, the US, for instance.


The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?
The big answer is no. :)


I'll give is that of Communist Russia. Russia was a fervently Christian/Orthodox country for centuries. Then came the Communist uprising in which they turned from God/Jesus and became an atheist state. They murdered and persecuted many Christians. Former Christians in Russia fully supported this murder and turning from Jesus!

The second example is Christian Germany. When Hitler came to power, Germany was a Christian nation. But with the Nazis, Jews were hated/persecuted/murdered by the millions. Germans who used to be Christians could no longer accept Jesus and turned from Him. Why? Because Jesus was a Jew and the Nazi Germans couldn't accept a Jew for a God. They invented an Aryanized Jesus who wasn't Jewish at all. The German people turned from Jesus enmasse!

So, the question is, are these examples of peoples who once were true Christians and turned anti-Christ and murderers still saved because they once believed in Jesus?

Did Jesus forgive all these their sins and take them to heaven even though they were unrepentant sinners?
No, not at all. They have the blood of innocent people on their hands. They are not, or were not, saved when they died. Not without true repentance.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#30
Jesus proclaimed that murder is a lot more spiritual than the physical act itself. Even anger can be equal to murder. I don’t think Jesus is talking about any kind of anger, but the kind that results in evil thoughts and desires about someone.

One can “be angry and sin not” but one can be angry and attack someone with insults and threats. Or even wishing death on someone. I think Jesus is saying be extremely careful about being angry, it can lead to sin.

Matthew 5:21,22
21You have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘Do not murder’ and ‘Anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’
22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be subject to the fire of hell.

So my question of reflection is, have we as Christians have been so angry at someone that we could have possibly fallen under the judgement Jesus spoke of?

Perhaps, but that is why we repent of our sins and keep our conscience clear.
 
P

Polar

Guest
#32
of course Germany was not a 'Christian nation' as I clearly showed

nothing like ignoring the facts that do not agree with your premise

I did ask where the op got the idea from but no response

shrugs
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#35
wondered why my feet felt suddenly cold in 80 degree weather :unsure:

Rofl. I think I'm going to be one of those old ladies that bite people in the old age home. I'm not yet 50 and I'm already cranky too often.
 

Ann100

Junior Member
Feb 6, 2018
34
39
18
#36
There are numerous examples of Christians and their countries who abandon Jesus and God completely.

The peoples of Russia and Germany were once fervant Christians before they changed, become anti-Christs and murderers of innocents on a massive scale.

The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?

The first example I'll give is that of Communist Russia. Russia was a fervently Christian/Orthodox country for centuries. Then came the Communist uprising in which they turned from God/Jesus and became an atheist state. They murdered and persecuted many Christians. Former Christians in Russia fully supported this murder and turning from Jesus!

The second example is Christian Germany. When Hitler came to power, Germany was a Christian nation. But with the Nazis, Jews were hated/persecuted/murdered by the millions. Germans who used to be Christians could no longer accept Jesus and turned from Him. Why? Because Jesus was a Jew and the Nazi Germans couldn't accept a Jew for a God. They invented an Aryanized Jesus who wasn't Jewish at all. The German people turned from Jesus enmasse!

So, the question is, are these examples of peoples who once were true Christians and turned anti-Christ and murderers still saved because they once believed in Jesus?

Did Jesus forgive all these their sins and take them to heaven even though they were unrepentant sinners?
Any country as a whole cannot be saved, only individuals who live in the particular country. As for the Russians and Germans mentioned above, - it will all depend if those individuals, both Russian and German, were truly saved or not in the begin with. For even Jesus Himself said in Matthew 7:22-24 :

"22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: "

So, based on what Jesus said, - if a person is His, he will not do things of the "iniquity". We can make mistakes, but if Jesus Christ isn't the focus in our life, I'd question that individual's salvation, i.e. if he truly got saved or not. Way too many people claim they are Christians, but their works and focus are on the world and not on God. Some remember God only on Sundays, or whenever they go to church, but the rest of the week their lives are no different than those of the heathens.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
778
113
#37
or how about Spain with the Spanish inquisition?

Only with Israel did God deal with people as a nation or tribe. In the gospel age each person is either saved or not. Everyone who is or was Catholic is not saved or Orthodox or Baptist.

Every person who is truly saved must receive their new birth PERSONALLY from the Lord.

Many [catholics, orthodox, Baptists, Pentecosts] will say to Him on that day "Lord did not we [catholics, orthodox, baptists, pentecosts] cast out devils in Thy name and do miracles" ... but He will say "depart from Me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you"
Evmur, in my original post on this thread, I indicated that there were numerous examples of people turning away from Christ and I named two as examples, the people of Russia and the German people.

But I agree with you 100% that there are many more examples.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
#38
Perhaps, but that is why we repent of our sins and keep our conscience clear.
I’m curious what the difference is between not wanting to sin and still sinning and still not wanting to.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,266
3,602
113
#40
Eternal security is Gnostic. Eternal security people will deny this rabidly but this only demonstrates their ignorance of church history, the scriptures and Gnosticism itself. Early church heresy hunters wrote about the heretical teachings of the Gnostics on eternal security.

The doctrine isn't found in God's word. Modern doctrines on eternal security are distortions of the truth and are based on Gnosticism.