What is meant when people say 'guns don't kill people; people do'?

[ZNP]

This is an aside -- explaining why life insurance is a racket.

We were getting $100,000 policy that would last until she was 80. I did the math and we were going to give the insurance company $35,000 over that time. It seemed crazy, but I know that like Las Vegas the Insurance company has done the math and they know what they are doing. So I realized when she turns 80 the policy is over, she would need a new policy and who knows how expensive that would be. Few people (except for the wealthy, it is a tax dodge) get life insurance policies when they are that old. The Insurance agency is gambling she'll live till she is 80 in which case they get $35,000 for doing next to nothing.

However, for the wealthy it is a way to distribute millions of dollars to their descendants tax free. This is how the smart life insurance salesmen make their millions, selling a way to avoid taxes on your inheritance money.

 

[kaylagrl]

Tell that to Goliath....

Lol, I thought the same thing!!

 

[kaylagrl]

I agree with you that a government registry of Guns is a violation of the 2nd Amendment and is unconstitutional.

However, having a variety of private insurers have this information that the government would then have to subpoena in the event of a crime is not a violation. This is why I say we need liability insurance for gun owners.

This will not be expensive. They will take into account the type of gun, your history as a gun owner, and where you live. Buying a rifle to shoot bear for someone living in Alaska or Montana would be far different from someone buying a handgun who lives in Chicago.

If you have owned guns for 20 years it would probably be a routine task to get another one. But if you are 18 and this is your first gun and you want an AR-15 or a Glock they would probably want a deeper dive. Access to your medical records, mental health records, and social media accounts.

Let's say after this review everything is fine and you can buy the gun. You then want to buy 3,000 rounds of ammo, bullet proof vest, and a second gun. They may balk at that. For example when you filled out the application you may have said you want to fire the gun at ranges as a hobby. OK, you can buy your ammo at the range that you are shooting. Why do you need 3,000 rounds at home?

Never in a million years would I want to give gov't access to my personal information. They wanted to hang Rittenhouse because he used a gun in self defense. They told all kinds of lies in the MSM and made it look like the kid had the intent to kill just because he had a gun. Luckily there were no laws against him having a gun and he's still alive today. Gov't has too dang much power now, I'm not about to give them more.

 

[hornetguy]

I agree, however, "a well regulated militia" could definitely include liability insurance particularly based on our recent history. After these various mass shootings are victims compensated monetarily?

I understand what you are saying about insurance... I don't know that I agree with it... I need more time to think it through.
However, what other Constitutionally enumerated right do we have that requires liability insurance?

 

[ZNP]

Never in a million years would I want to give gov't access to my personal information. They wanted to hang Rittenhouse because he used a gun in self defense. They told all kinds of lies in the MSM and made it look like the kid had the intent to kill just because he had a gun. Luckily there were no laws against him having a gun and he's still alive today. Gov't has too dang much power now, I'm not about to give them more.

I agree. I am not saying the government gets to have a gun registry. However, if a crime is committed with a gun everyone (except of course the killer) wants that gun identified as soon as possible. Therefore I want private insurance companies that agree to keep your information secret. When the government has information about a gun involved in a crime they send out a subpoena to all insurance companies and if anyone has that gun on their records they send it to the government. This is established law.

Cars have license plates. I don't think any driver has the right to drive on public streets anonymously. That said, I don't want the automatic shut off of a car in the hands of the government, something Biden has asked all car companies to provide.

 

[ZNP]

I understand what you are saying about insurance... I don't know that I agree with it... I need more time to think it through.
However, what other Constitutionally enumerated right do we have that requires liability insurance?

Yes, businesses can be insured against defamation lawsuits (slander and libel). So your first amendment rights have liability insurance.

Also the 18th amendment was repealed, by inference you can assume that you have a right to drink alcohol. Still businesses that sell alcohol will have "liquor liability insurance"

There is nothing new about this, guns are covered under homeowners insurance.

 

[hornetguy]

Cars have license plates. I don't think any driver has the right to drive on public streets anonymously. That said, I don't want the automatic shut off of a car in the hands of the government, something Biden has asked all car companies to provide.

NOBODY has a "right" to drive. Driving is a privilege granted to people who meet the required qualifications.

 

[hornetguy]

Yes, businesses can be insured against defamation lawsuits (slander and libel). So your first amendment rights have liability insurance.

But I do not have to purchase liability insurance to speak.
If I abuse the right to speak, I can be prosecuted. Just as if I abuse the right to use a firearm responsibly, I can be prosecuted.
Same with alcohol.... I don't have to buy insurance to be able to go buy and drink a beer.

 

[ZNP]

NOBODY has a "right" to drive. Driving is a privilege granted to people who meet the required qualifications.

Depends how you want to look at it. I would say every American has the right to apply for a driver's license and just because you are a felon or commit crimes does not automatically eliminate that right.

For example we say that people have the "right" to an education, yet you don't get the degree without meeting the qualifications.

Also, the "privilege" to driving only applies to public roads, not to private property.

 

[ZNP]

But I do not have to purchase liability insurance to speak.
If I abuse the right to speak, I can be prosecuted. Just as if I abuse the right to use a firearm responsibly, I can be prosecuted.
Same with alcohol.... I don't have to buy insurance to be able to go buy and drink a beer.

How much damage can you do with your speaking? If you work for a multinational corporation in a position of authority that can equal millions even hundreds of millions of dollars. So yes, in that event they will be insured.

How much did the Sandy Hook kid or the Columbine Kids or this kid in Texas pay out to the victims of their crimes? This is why we require anyone with a car to have insurance because we know you can do a lot more damage than you can pay for.

Yes, you definitely pay insurance if you go and buy a beer in a bar. Check the price of that beer compared to what a six pack costs at the grocery store. That extra fee includes liability insurance.

 

[Handyman62]

cant ban culture . need to change it. that is very hard to do.

as i say whilst nothinh changes due to arguments every year. more innocent children are killed.

Stop debating . make a change

So what you're saying is innocent people including innocent gun owners don't have the right to protect themselves from a culture that wants to kill them? Maybe we should ban cars, knives, forks, spoons, sticks, rocks, feet, hands, elbows, toes, pillow, rope, string, matches, lighters harsh language. The list is endless and you seem unable to see the reality of the situation.

There will always be people who will kill others and making it easier for them to do so by taking away other peoples ability to protect themselves is not the solution. If the schools were armed or locked down and ready to defend against nutcases like Salvador Ramos these things wouldn't happen.

Sadly the pitiful attempts that are being made at some schools with officers that run out the back door when the shooting starts or officers that hang around outside the school while kids are being killed inside just serves to embolden these nutcases.

It also just shows that you can't really rely on anybody but yourself to protect you and your family. So since you cant rely on government to protect you then why should only government be allowed to own guns?

 

[Handyman62]

How much damage can you do with your speaking? If you work for a multinational corporation in a position of authority that can equal millions even hundreds of millions of dollars. So yes, in that event they will be insured.

How much did the Sandy Hook kid or the Columbine Kids or this kid in Texas pay out to the victims of their crimes? This is why we require anyone with a car to have insurance because we know you can do a lot more damage than you can pay for.

Yes, you definitely pay insurance if you go and buy a beer in a bar. Check the price of that beer compared to what a six pack costs at the grocery store. That extra fee includes liability insurance.

Heck I can't even afford insurance on my house let alone firearm insurance.

 

[hornetguy]

How much damage can you do with your speaking? If you work for a multinational corporation in a position of authority that can equal millions even hundreds of millions of dollars. So yes, in that event they will be insured.

How much did the Sandy Hook kid or the Columbine Kids or this kid in Texas pay out to the victims of their crimes? This is why we require anyone with a car to have insurance because we know you can do a lot more damage than you can pay for.

Yes, you definitely pay insurance if you go and buy a beer in a bar. Check the price of that beer compared to what a six pack costs at the grocery store. That extra fee includes liability insurance.

Sorry, but I disagree with you conclusions...
Again, requiring payment for liability insurance is ok with something that is not an inalienable right....
I would love to see the line item on an insurance policy that insures against stupid or inflammatory/offensive speech. It may exist, but I'd still like to see it...
My company "insures" against my saying anything "bad" by telling me that my employment will be terminated if I do so... I don't have to pay anything for it, though.

I'm pretty sure the cost of a beer in a bar is higher to cover the bar's profit and overhead, which certainly includes insurance.
Not quite the same as my having to go pay for a personal liability policy if I want to drink a beer in a bar.... you are reaching.....
and that argument is moot, anyway, because I could just drink at home.

 

[hornetguy]

This is an aside -- explaining why life insurance is a racket.

Dave Ramsey explained all that about 15 years or so ago.... it IS a racket.

 

[hornetguy]

But, frankly, I'd never register them with the government no matter what laws they passed. Frankly I don't trust the government at all.

And THAT, boys and girls, is the PURPOSE behind the second amendment to the Constitution. In a nutshell.... well said.

 

[arthurfleminger]

You have a good point about having licensing and insurance . and gun laws should be stricter . lives are saved also with stricter laws for acquiring firearms. I was just explain the statement I don't agree with the saying personally.

I see suggestions about registering/licensening/insuring guns but I fail to see how any of these would stop the gun murders or mass murders. If I was a gun owner intent on killing someone or even many people, the fact that it was registered, licensed, or insured wouldn't make any difference to my intentions. The only thing that these provisions would accomplish is to let the government know that you are armed and therefore a 'special tax' target in order to make you pay annually for your fire arms.

So, how do you figure that licenseing/insuring/registering a fire arm would stop anyone from killing others, just wonderingj? Thanks.

And, BTW, I personally have no real answer to the terrible amount of murders in the USA, whether it be by gun or other means.

 

[Dude653]

Maybe we should have stricter a red flag law
If it can be demonstrated that you ever publicly made a threat then you're not getting a gun

 

[hornetguy]

Maybe we should have stricter a red flag law
If it can be demonstrated that you ever publicly made a threat then you're not getting a gun

the problem would be.... demonstrated by whom? Some random crazy Karen in the grocery store? Your ex wife that's angry at you for not getting the child support check to her on time?

I would be ok with making it a requirement to waive your HIPPA rights to allow the NICS system to check your mental health records before allowing the purchase...
If you have been judged mentally unstable by a true medical professional, that should prevent a sale.

 

[Magenta]

If we are going to compare guns to cars, and I think that is a very fair analogy, then you need to include everything.

1. Everyone should have to get a license before being able to use a gun. So imagine a gang member is caught with a gun but we can't prove a crime so we have to let him go. No, if he doesn't have a license that proves he is qualified to use a gun then that would be the same offense as catching someone driving a car without a license. This process should involve a written test that can be done on the computer at DMV or some other location and then you should have to appear on the shooting range with a gun instructor who will certify that you know how to properly use a gun and keep it safe.

2. Everyone who buys a gun must also get liability insurance. No one talks about this because compared to the deaths this seems trivial, but it would go a very long way to preventing these events. Think about the 19 kids and two teachers shot and killed. The insurance company would have to pay out damages, say $1 million to each person killed. This one event would have cost them over $20 million, and there would be other damages besides those who are killed. Here is why this is important. You have a big, powerful rich company with a financial interest to prevent these attacks.

When this kid goes to buy his guns and his ammo and his bullet proof vests or any other equipment he has to provide proof of insurance. As a result the insurance company would immediately be notified and using their powerful computers and algorithms and AI there would be an immediate Red Flag pop up.

Not only so but insurance companies would give you discounts if you list your social media accounts, so by monitoring those the red flags would pop up two weeks before the event.

What we need is a powerful ally with the resources and tools to spot and react to red flag events like an 18 year old kid saying he is going to commit mass murder on social media or with an 18 year old working part time at a fast food restaurant buying 83k worth of guns, ammo, equipment and a truck.

Do you want to know why Chicago has such horrific gun crime? When we find the bullets and shell casings we could identify the gun, however, this information is not allowed to be digitized so investigators have to go to trailers housing millions of paper documents that provide that information. It is an impossible task. However, if everything were on the various Insurance agencies computers then it would be easy for the cops to send out a request to all the insurance agencies to identify the gun and the owner and they could immediately get a hit and a response.

Again, if a gang member is caught with a gun and they don't have insurance that would be another violation they could charge them with.

Except...

I heard today that the US has the worst homicide rate from guns among 193 countries, but if you remove the data from five cities, all run by democrats, all with the strongest gun regulations in the country (LA, Chicago, NYC, Philadelphia and Washington DC) then the US is 183 out of 193.

 

[I_am_Canadian]

yes you are right it is culture problem

Sadly can we wait for the culture to change and watch more die.

Or while they changing the culture should something be done differently ?

Once the culture changes to more like Switzerland. then guns can be made available again

Culture is hard to change though

Only Jesus can change people, unfortunately they have to have a heart desire to change