Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?

[BeeThePeace]

Lol. That's a laugh and a half. Constantine was never a Bishop, ergo he was never Pope. He was Emperor.

The first three Popes, or Bishops of Rome, after St. Peter, were St. Linus, St. Anacletus and St. Clement. Even secular historians know this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes#1st_century

You can consult any Secular Encyclopedia, including the Encyclopedia Brittanica, to learn the above. In this Internet Age, Wikipedia is your friend. Scholars, even those Protestant scholars who are not completely Anti-Catholic, have known these facts for centuries.

The succession list of bishops in the apostolic see of Rome of the first two centuries as provided by Philip Schaff (volume 2, page 166, History of the Christian Church) is --

• St. Peter (d. 64 or 67)
• St. Linus (67-76)
• St. Anacletus (76-88)
• St. Clement I (88-97)

Philip Schaff was a renowned Protestant Historian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Schaff Agree or disagree, these are the facts.

There are Church Historians of the 2nd century, long before Constantine, who mention these historical points as well known events.

The site you linked to is Anti-Trinitarian. No wonder it is against the Catholic Church, which has always taught the Holy Trinity, and against Constantine, who was a believer in the Divinity of Christ. Constantine, btw, didn't cause the Bishops to decide anything. All he did was end the persecution, and help the Bishops gather at the Council of Nicaea. The Bishops, many of whom had suffered persecution for the Faith, drew up the Nicene Creed, in the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., to defend the Divinity of Christ, against Arius who denied it. Those who followed Arius in denying Christ's Divinity were called Arians and founded the Arian denomination.

Regarding the Trinity, it is taught by Christ Himself in Mat 28:19: "Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

St. Augustine commented: "O Lord God, we firmly believe that You are a Trinity. For Truth (Jesus) would never have said "Be Baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" unless You were a Trinity. He said Name and not names, for the Three Persons are One God. Neither would He have commanded us to be baptized into One Who was not Lord God, so each Person is the Lord God". These theological arguments were completely irrefutable, and the Arians couldn't answer them. Trinitarian Theology prevailed.

We already had these debates earlier in Church History, and we won them. Arianism practically disappeared for a 1000 years. Even Luther and Calvin were against it, though they mention some already began to deny Christ's Divinity. Finally, the JW group revived it.

I'll get back to the rest later. God Bless.

No, Jesus never taught the Trinity therefore he would not instruct to baptize in the name of a triune godhead.

Being Catholic and thinking Apostle Peter was the first pope, you'll be challenged to explain why the first pope instructed how baptism was to be performed here, with no triune references you claim appears in Matthew. (It isn't a triune reference)

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

This site's statement of faith upholds the trinity. The three are the one.

Isaiah 43:11
I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no Savior but Me.


If you'll read Matthew you'll see the text says to baptize in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost.

There is no plural language there as in, baptize in the names of....

If you recollect passages in the Old Testament you'll recall God is holy spirit.
As we learn in the beginning:
"The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters" Genesis 1:2

The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:4

Recollect king David,
"Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me." Psalm 51:11

John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God,-As-Spirit

Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel” (which means, “God with us”).

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
...
14The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The record, when Peter in Acts said to baptize in the name of Jesus, and the Matthew verse stated to baptize in the name of, that there is no conflict. Because the name of the father (The Word), the Son, (The Word made flesh as God with us) and the holy spirit,(God is that spirit), it is the same as saying baptize in the name of Jesus. Because Jesus was all three manifest in one.

Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!"


https://biblehub.com/bsb/mark/12.htm
Mark 12:28Now one of the scribes had come up and heard their debate. Noticing how well Jesus had answered them, he asked Him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

On John 3:18 and II Thess. 2:12: I did a little looking at these verses in both some English versions and also at the Greek verb tenses.

Excellent study method!!

The best I can tell it seems as if none of these clearly says NEVER believed.

Correct.

I suppose one could read that into the verse if needed: but I am curious as to why this sort of distinction needs to be made? It seems to me that the writer could have clearly stated it that way if he had wanted.

The words "have not believed", found in both verses seems clear enough for me.

If you have NEVER eaten a certain food, it could be said that you "have not eaten" that certain food. Agree?

The only way the words "have not" doesn't mean "never" is when there is a time frame attached. Such as: you have not eaten that certain food for 10 years. That statement doesn't mean that you NEVER ate that food, but just not in the past 10 years.

Since neither John or Paul included any specific time frame, it can easily mean that those who NEVER believed will be condemned.

And this aligns exactly with what Jesus said in John 10:28. Those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

All three verses have the same meaning.

So, iow, once belief, always saved. OBAS

The reason is simple. The gift of eternal life is eternal. Never ending. And there are no verses that say or show that eternal life can be removed, returned, revoked, regurgitated (oops, sorry. Got carried away with alliteration). Or any other way to describe the loss of eternal life.

So we can safely believe that condemnation will be ONLY for "those who have not believed". Which, of course, means to never have believed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is John 10:27-29 KJV
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Really a simple clear powerful promise:
To the sheep of verse 27 Jesus gives eternal life and they will never perish or be plucked out of the Father's hand.

Are you a sheep? If you are, the promise is yours! PTL!

The only thing I'd add is that v.27 does NOT represent a condition that has to be met in order to be given eternal life.

John 5:24 tells us plainly who possesses (has) eternal life. Those who believe.

So, Jesus' promise to never perish begins the MOMENT one believes in Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why would it?

So if I renounce Christ, murder, rob and rape, I haven't been snatched from His hand?

You mean you didn't read the rest of my post? And you DON'T believe what Jesus said in John 10:28.

It seems you just can't get past your own hang-ups. Of course God hates sin. All sin. But since Jesus Christ died for ALL sins, including the ones that seem to offend you the most, you just need to fully TRUST in what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

Have you received the free gift of eternal life by placing your full trust alone in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross for YOUR sins?

If so, you have been given eternal life. You are a recipient of eternal life. And on THAT BASIS ALONE, you shall never perish.

Now, let's consider your list of horrible sins.

King David raped a woman and killed her husband to cover his rape of her. That's the reality.

David was saved when he did all that. His prayer about not taking the Holy Spirit from him doesn't apply to this age. Very few believers in the OT had the Holy Spirit in them, and then only for special purposes, like king or prophet.

The only way any specific sin could remove salvation is IF IF IF Jesus didn't die for such sin.

So, your assignment is to scour the Bible and find any sin that Jesus failed to die for. Then let me know. I don't want to be wrong any more than you do. And I mean that.

Throughout the NT we find the result of believers who sin grossly. They are met with God's discipline, which can be very painful, according to Heb 12:11. Including physical death. 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Cor 5:5, etc.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Article said: "Perhaps one of the most powerful proofs that a child of God can be eternally lost is seen over and over again across the pages of the Old Testament."

Free Grace responded: "Ridiculous statement. Even King Saul, who God KILLED for his failures joined with Samuel after his death."

Since you mention King Saul, it is written the Spirit of the Lord departed from him: "14Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him." (1 Sam 16:14)

Even King David recognizes this as a possibility, that the Spirit of the Lord may be taken from him, in his famous penitential Psalm, Psalm 51: "
11Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
12Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me." (Psa 51:11-12)

And yet, none of this equates to loss of salvation. If they did, Jesus was not telling the truth in John 10:28.

But perhaps the clearest Old Testament statement about this issue is from the Lord Himself in Ezekiel 18:

"21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?"

The "death" mentioned here is physical death, or God's divine discipline that includes physical death.

Keep trying. That's how we learn. Scour the Bible for clear verses that specifically mention salvation, or eternal life.

 

[BeeThePeace]

The Bible on religion and works pleasing to the Father:

"Jam 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

Where does that say such labors secure Salvation?

 

[BeeThePeace]

When you haven't paid attention to those who try to reach you already?

Let's let you try.
Those who were in the bible and were saved without baptism and that you apparently overlook.

The thief on the cross.Luke 23

The paralyzed man brought to Jesus during one of his sermons and through the roof of a hut.
Matthew 9

The woman who washed Jesus' feet while he was at Simon's house. Luke 7.

John 4. The Samaritin woman at the well. According to Jewish tradition Jesus, a Jew, wasn't even to talk to her. She was unclean because she was living in sin.
But Jesus talked to her. And she was saved by her faith in him. The living water that insured she would never thirst again.

Dare you say they were not saved because they were not also baptized?

Liquid water doesn't save us. The living water that is Jesus does. Which is the real meaning of Peter's remarks in 1Peter 3:21

Baptism was a ritual that symbolized Salvation by the living water that is holy spirit.
If Baptism was requisite for Salvation Jesus would have baptized everyone in the above scriptures.

But he didn't.

And yet they were still saved by him.

Article clip:

"For even as the body is one yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."
1 Corinthians 12:12–13

Apparently baptism saves us, but which baptism? There are several types of baptism including: – John’s baptism of repentance (Act 19:3–4) – water baptism done in Jesus’ name (Act 10:48, 19:5) – Holy Spirit baptism (Act 11:16) – Jesus’ baptism of suffering (Matt. 20:22) – baptism for the dead (1 Cor. 15:29) So many baptisms! It’s no wonder people argue. But in his letter to the Ephesians, Paul said there is only one baptism: Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Eph. 4:3–6) What is the one baptism? Theologians will tell you that Paul is referring to some rite undertaken by new believers, but which one? “It’s repeating the apostle’s creed.” “It’s water baptism.” Arguments about baptism lead to strife and division, which is the exact opposite of what Paul is calling for here. “Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit.” The one baptism is not water baptism or any outward act. It is the baptism that happens to every believer when they are put into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. For even as the body is one yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:12–13) The moment you came to Jesus, you were baptized or placed into his body by the Spirit.
More reading: https://escapetoreality.org/2021/02/02/what-is-the-baptism-that-saves/

Yes, your red x peledon shows you're not interested in the scriptures. Just making false claims while enjoying Christians here making an effort to correct what they mistakenly think is ignorance on your part. They'll come around though and realize you are lost. And are mocking those who are found.
Conya rry to what your other side said, this 8snt expected to be an echo chamber. It is however expected to be a sanctuary for the faithful in Christ to be safe from Devil's.
And we are. Because we are sanctified and they never shall be .

Because we know where they're headed.
No mocking then. Just wailing and gnashing of their teeth.

They'll believe it was all true then. Far too late though.

 

[Chester]

Excellent study method!!


Correct.


The words "have not believed", found in both verses seems clear enough for me.

If you have NEVER eaten a certain food, it could be said that you "have not eaten" that certain food. Agree?

The only way the words "have not" doesn't mean "never" is when there is a time frame attached. Such as: you have not eaten that certain food for 10 years. That statement doesn't mean that you NEVER ate that food, but just not in the past 10 years.

Since neither John or Paul included any specific time frame, it can easily mean that those who NEVER believed will be condemned.

And this aligns exactly with what Jesus said in John 10:28. Those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

All three verses have the same meaning.

So, iow, once belief, always saved. OBAS

The reason is simple. The gift of eternal life is eternal. Never ending. And there are no verses that say or show that eternal life can be removed, returned, revoked, regurgitated (oops, sorry. Got carried away with alliteration). Or any other way to describe the loss of eternal life.

So we can safely believe that condemnation will be ONLY for "those who have not believed". Which, of course, means to never have believed.

You said this about my thoughts on "have not believed" being equal to "never believed":

The words "have not believed", found in both verses seems clear enough for me.
If you have NEVER eaten a certain food, it could be said that you "have not eaten" that certain food. Agree?
The only way the words "have not" doesn't mean "never" is when there is a time frame attached. Such as: you have not eaten that certain food for 10 years. That statement doesn't mean that you NEVER ate that food, but just not in the past 10 years.
Since neither John or Paul included any specific time frame, it can easily mean that those who NEVER believed will be condemned

You basically admitted that the text does not clearly say that those had never believed. You then give some fine sounding arguments to prove that it does mean this. And all that is possible -- but my approach is different -- I just take the text for what it says. I don't have to make it say that these have never believed because I am not bringing a doctrine to the text that I need to defend.

And then you say: The reason is simple. The gift of eternal life is eternal. Never ending

I take that you mean that your reason for insisting on this interpretation is your definition of eternal life. Thus you are actually basing your interpretation on your definition of a word that is the core of a doctrine you are defending.

What is eternal life? The definition should begin with the noun "life". The Greek word is zoe = spiritual life, a quality of true living, not just biological life - Jesus said he is the life (zoe) - so having eternal life at the core means JESUS. Thus the core of eternal life is not "living forever physically", but having an ongoing relationship/union with Jesus.

You then say: And there are no verses that say or show that eternal life can be removed, returned, revoked, regurgitated: If one takes that approach to interpretation there are a lot of things that there are no verses that say or show _________________________. Fill in the blank with the doctrine you want to prove . . . !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can eternal life be lost? As you say, I think you are right that there is no text that says explicitly that "eternal life" can be lost. But what I do know that is I do not want to lose Jesus and what he means and has done for me. I have put my faith in Him as the atoning sacrifice for my sin: He has changed me and is changing me into His image. He is my Everything and my All! And I will not let go of Him. He has promised to be with me until the end! That is enough for me! PTL!

 

[Snacks]

So if I renounce Christ, murder, rob and rape, I haven't been snatched from His hand?

Who snatched you?

 

[Chester]

The only thing I'd add is that v.27 does NOT represent a condition that has to be met in order to be given eternal life.

John 5:24 tells us plainly who possesses (has) eternal life. Those who believe.

So, Jesus' promise to never perish begins the MOMENT one believes in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Yeah, I suppose that is one way to look at it: Verse 27 does not give a condition about the sheep. It just actually states a fact about them. His sheep are hearing His voice, and His is knowing them, and they are following Him.

So the persons not hearing and following (Greek present tense - their ongoing practice) must not be the sheep talked about here.

You mention John 5:24: It says that the one hearing ongoingly (Greek present tense) and believing ongoingly (present tense) is having ongoingly (Greek present tense) eternal life.

And you say Jesus' promise to never perish begins the MOMENT one believes in Jesus. That is likely correct, but what is important to me is that today I am believing in Jesus, and as such the promise of eternal life is mine! Amen! Hallelujah!

 

[BeeThePeace]

Who snatched you?

😆 You gotta laugh. Because at some point mockers are so pathetic and desperate for attention and have repeatedly waved off sincere concern for their souls as they continue on as to make responsive humor that laughs at them necessary.

To communicate on a level that releases responsibility for having tried and failed to reach the obviously proud arrogant obstinate lost. Maintain a sense of humor because after so many examples in the world of the happy indifferent damned, it helps to remember God has a sense of humor too. It's better to laugh than cry in the face of devil's.

 

[Magenta]

Colossians 1:21-22

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said this about my thoughts on "have not believed" being equal to "never believed":

The words "have not believed", found in both verses seems clear enough for me.
If you have NEVER eaten a certain food, it could be said that you "have not eaten" that certain food. Agree?
The only way the words "have not" doesn't mean "never" is when there is a time frame attached. Such as: you have not eaten that certain food for 10 years. That statement doesn't mean that you NEVER ate that food, but just not in the past 10 years.
Since neither John or Paul included any specific time frame, it can easily mean that those who NEVER believed will be condemned

You basically admitted that the text does not clearly say that those had never believed.

I gave you an example of HOW "have not believed" means "having never believed". Unless there is a time frame limitation, it can ONLY mean never.

You then give some fine sounding arguments to prove that it does mean this. And all that is possible -- but my approach is different -- I just take the text for what it says.

I do too. "have not" means "never" unless there is a time limit placed on it. And neither Jesus nor Paul did that.

I don't have to make it say that these have never believed because I am not bringing a doctrine to the text that I need to defend.

I have no problem defending that next level.

And then you say: The reason is simple. The gift of eternal life is eternal. Never ending

I take that you mean that your reason for insisting on this interpretation is your definition of eternal life. Thus you are actually basing your interpretation on your definition of a word that is the core of a doctrine you are defending.

Nope. I'm just taking the verses straightforward.

What is eternal life?

For mortals, it means life without end.

The definition should begin with the noun "life". The Greek word is zoe = spiritual life, a quality of true living, not just biological life - Jesus said he is the life (zoe) - so having eternal life at the core means JESUS. Thus the core of eternal life is not "living forever physically", but having an ongoing relationship/union with Jesus.

Depending upon the context, eternal life either refers to the new spiritual birth and that life never ending, or, as a future idea, it can mean eternity itself, and our life in eternity.

You then say:

And there are no verses that say or show that eternal life can be removed, returned, revoked, regurgitated: If one takes that approach to interpretation there are a lot of things that there are no verses that say or show _________________________. Fill in the blank with the doctrine you want to prove . . .

Why would I or anyone else believe a claim when there are no verses that say it? That doesn't make sense.

Can eternal life be lost?

Show me a verse.

As you say, I think you are right that there is no text that says explicitly that "eternal life" can be lost. But what I do know that is I do not want to lose Jesus and what he means and has done for me.

Do you believe Jesus' words in John 5:24 and 10:28? If so, you should have NO doubts or concerns.

I have put my faith in Him as the atoning sacrifice for my sin: He has changed me and is changing me into His image. He is my Everything and my All! And I will not let go of Him. He has promised to be with me until the end! That is enough for me! PTL!

Isn't "until the end" eternal security?

Not sure what your point is.

 

[BroTan]

Galatians 3:21-25
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

I agree with those verses, but let's read more with understanding, because Paul says in (Gal. 3:1, 13, 16-17, 19, 24) (v.1) O FOOLISH Ga-la’-tians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (v.13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED IS EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE: What law is this talking about? Let the bible speak for itself.

(v.16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of One, AND TO THY SEED, which is Christ. (v.17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Now pay attention, the law that is being spoken of here came four hundred and thirty years after this covenant. But God’s holy commandments have been around forever even before man was created. Remember that Satan was kicked out of heaven because iniquity (sin) was found in him. And what is sin? The transgression of the law (commandments). Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts. (1John 3:4)

(v.19) Wherefore then serveth the law? A question is being asked here. Then why should we serve this law? It was added because of transgression, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; the law that we are talking about here was added because of sin. But we now know that sin is the transgression of the law.

How do you add a law if sin is the transgression of the law? Because there are two sets of laws, you have God’s holy commandments which abided forever, and you had the animal sacrificial law which was added because of sin, but it was only good until the seed should come to whom the promise was made, and that seed was Jesus.

(v.24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. This animal sacrificial law was only a schoolmaster.

And this schoolmaster taught you that when you sinned in ignorance blood had to be shed (an animal sacrificed). But Christ being the ultimate sacrifice shed his precious blood once and for all, and by doing this putting an end to the animal sacrificial law. Paul says in Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. So when you quoted all the places in the Bible that do away with this animal sacrificial law, not understanding that Paul talks about two sets of law. The Royal law (Ten Commandments) and the animal sacrificial law sometimes in the same verse you bring destruction to yourselves.

Now let's add John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The only thing I'd add is that v.27 does NOT represent a condition that has to be met in order to be given eternal life.

John 5:24 tells us plainly who possesses (has) eternal life. Those who believe.

So, Jesus' promise to never perish begins the MOMENT one believes in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Yeah, I suppose that is one way to look at it: Verse 27 does not give a condition about the sheep. It just actually states a fact about them. His sheep are hearing His voice, and His is knowing them, and they are following Him.

One more thing. v.27 begins with "My sheep". That proves they are already saved, His and have eternal life.

So the persons not hearing and following (Greek present tense - their ongoing practice) must not be the sheep talked about here.

You mention John 5:24: It says that the one hearing ongoingly (Greek present tense) and believing ongoingly (present tense) is having ongoingly (Greek present tense) eternal life.

I assume you realize that ALL present tense actions are in the present. You add "ongoingly". I haven't found that word in any lexicon, or in my "Beyond the Basics" by Wallace.

And you say Jesus' promise to never perish begins the MOMENT one believes in Jesus.

Based on John 5:24. Believers possess eternal life. So WHEN a person believes, means they have it.

That is likely correct, but what is important to me is that today I am believing in Jesus, and as such the promise of eternal life is mine! Amen! Hallelujah!

If you think that if you or another person through various circumstances ceases to believe is no longer is saved, then you are NOT believing John 3:18 (Jesus' words) or 2 Thess 2:12 (Paul's words). Or John 5:24 and 10:28.

Once a person believes, it can NO LONGER be said of them that they "have not believed", because they did at one time.

I know this is a very hard pill to swallow, but that's only because of the very poor teaching by many many pastors.

Eternal security begins the moment one believes. That is biblical.

 

[BroTan]

So the world would have remained an Eden if God didn't insert his law?

Wouldn't that mean sinners ask God to save them from himself?🤔

Remember that Satan was kicked out of heaven because iniquity (sin) was found in him. And what is sin? The transgression of the law (commandments). Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts. (1John 3:4)

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time. So by coming under the blood of Jesus you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again. It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

 

[BeeThePeace]

Remember that Satan was kicked out of heaven because iniquity (sin) was found in him. And what is sin? The transgression of the law (commandments). Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts. (1John 3:4)

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time. So by coming under the blood of Jesus you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again. It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

Except sin existed in heaven before it came into Eden.

And God knew the rule first. Where thete is no law sin is not imputed. God estaished his law in Eden first. And to two people who had no idea how to obey.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, your red x peledon shows you're not interested in the scriptures. Just making false claims while enjoying Christians here making an effort to correct what they mistakenly think is ignorance on your part. They'll come around though and realize you are lost. And are mocking those who are found.
Conya rry to what your other side said, this 8snt expected to be an echo chamber. It is however expected to be a sanctuary for the faithful in Christ to be safe from Devil's.
And we are. Because we are sanctified and they never shall be .

Because we know where they're headed.
No mocking then. Just wailing and gnashing of their teeth.

They'll believe it was all true then. Far too late though.

You're going to heaven and everyone who disagrees with you is going to be tormented. I think I understand you clearly now.

 

[Runningman]

😆 You gotta laugh. Because at some point mockers are so pathetic and desperate for attention and have repeatedly waved off sincere concern for their souls as they continue on as to make responsive humor that laughs at them necessary.

To communicate on a level that releases responsibility for having tried and failed to reach the obviously proud arrogant obstinate lost. Maintain a sense of humor because after so many examples in the world of the happy indifferent damned, it helps to remember God has a sense of humor too. It's better to laugh than cry in the face of devil's.

This is what the Spirit of God says about the death of the wicked, a narrative that is clearly absent from your spirit and doesn't seem to reflect at all in your comments:

Ezekiel 33:11
11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[Runningman]

Remember that Satan was kicked out of heaven because iniquity (sin) was found in him. And what is sin? The transgression of the law (commandments). Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts. (1John 3:4)

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time. So by coming under the blood of Jesus you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again. It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

You stand in God's grace if you access it by faith.

Romans 5:1,2
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Paul takes it a step further and says that anything not of faith is a sin.

Romans 14:23
23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

So what does faith really mean? What does it mean to walk by faith?

1 John 1:7,8
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

God's grace is conditional and requires walking in faith, in obedience. If we are not even trying to not sin anymore then we have effectually committed apostasy. Yes God requires everything from our corrupt thoughts and corrupt behaviors to be brought under submission to Him. It's not immediate, it's not instant, but God requires our sincere and genuine efforts to live like Jesus lived.

Christians are purchased property, their lives are not their own, they must be selfless and not sin.