Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Free Grace.

Ok, your position seems to be one can "leave the faith; stop attending church, stop reading their Bible, if they ever did, stop praying, etc." yet "None of this results in loss of salvation/eternal life/positional justification."

To be real clear, this position is really the position of Jesus Christ Himself. Do you believe what I quoted from Him or not?

It seems you view some sins worse than others and will result in loss of salvation. But you don't have clear verses. And you CAN'T have such verses, because what Jesus said NAILS THE DOOR SHUT on loss of salvation. It isn't true, or Jesus is lying.

What's your choice here?

Unfortunately, that's not what Heb 10:29 says. It says: "29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"

This person was truly sanctified. Yet the Word says punishment awaits them. How then can you say they will be rewarded?

OK, so you DON'T believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. Well, that's just real sad.

And trying to trump Scripture with Scripture is a failure. Scripture is not contradicted.

I will ignore all the other verses you provided because they CANNOT refute what Jesus said. It's that clear.

Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That is what He said. So there is NOTHING in the Bible that refutes what He said.

What this means is that ALL the verses you are using to preach loss of salvation are totally misunderstood.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Many verses have been posted already. 1 Thessalonians 4, etc...[/QUOTE]
As I pointed out, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

What verse actually shows Jesus doing this? I haven't found any.

Take a look at this article that includes many of those scriptures and what I think is a good narrative that ties them together.
https://www.raptureready.com/2019/12/15/biblical-case-pretribulation-rapture/

There is nothing to tie together that will result in a pretrib rapture.

What there is that does tie together is the Bible teaching that there is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, 1 Cor 15:23.

There is also ONE resurrection for the unsaved, which will be the GWT judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

And Rev 20:5 specifically describes the resurrection of the saved as "the FIRST resurrection". Meaning, the SECOND resurrection, which will be of the unsaved, will occur 1,000 years later. All that in v.5.

Also, every mention of the "coming of Christ" in the NT refers to the Second Advent. Why? Because in the OT, there were ONLY TWO prophecies of the coming of the Messiah. The first one was as a baby to become the Suffering Servant. The second one was as King of kings, and Lord of lords. This one is the Second Advent which occurs at the END of the Tribulation, which is described in Rev 20:4,5.

1 Cor 15:23 says "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. "

This verse places the singular resurrection of believers "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.

The blue words is that reference. The red words show who will be at this singular resurrection: "those who belong to Him", which means EVERY believer in human history, because EVERY person who has believed savingly in Jesus Christ does belong to Him.

So, there are the dots that prove a singular post Trip resurrection. Followed immediately by the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

No glorified believer will be taken to heaven. There is no rapture. There will be a gathering of living believers and caught up to the air to meet the Lord and all the dead saints to receive their glorified bodies.

These are the dots to connect to understand the resurrection and glorification of all believers.

 

[Magenta]

John 6:37 plus John 10:28

 

[Magenta]

1 Peter 1:23 plus 1 John 5:4

 

[BeeThePeace]

Many verses have been posted already. 1 Thessalonians 4, etc...

As I pointed out, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

What verse actually shows Jesus doing this? I haven't found any.


There is nothing to tie together that will result in a pretrib rapture.

What there is that does tie together is the Bible teaching that there is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, 1 Cor 15:23.

There is also ONE resurrection for the unsaved, which will be the GWT judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

And Rev 20:5 specifically describes the resurrection of the saved as "the FIRST resurrection". Meaning, the SECOND resurrection, which will be of the unsaved, will occur 1,000 years later. All that in v.5.

Also, every mention of the "coming of Christ" in the NT refers to the Second Advent. Why? Because in the OT, there were ONLY TWO prophecies of the coming of the Messiah. The first one was as a baby to become the Suffering Servant. The second one was as King of kings, and Lord of lords. This one is the Second Advent which occurs at the END of the Tribulation, which is described in Rev 20:4,5.

1 Cor 15:23 says "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. "

This verse places the singular resurrection of believers "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.

The blue words is that reference. The red words show who will be at this singular resurrection: "those who belong to Him", which means EVERY believer in human history, because EVERY person who has believed savingly in Jesus Christ does belong to Him.

So, there are the dots that prove a singular post Trip resurrection. Followed immediately by the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

No glorified believer will be taken to heaven. There is no rapture. There will be a gathering of living believers and caught up to the air to meet the Lord and all the dead saints to receive their glorified bodies.

These are the dots to connect to understand the resurrection and glorification of all believers.[/QUOTE]
One problem. If we are to believe we're saved, but won't be saved from the great tribulation.
Part of that problem is that during the great tribulation people will still be able to come into God's grace.

Lastly, what scripture tells us the church will suffer the great tribulation?

 

[FreeGrace2]

One problem. If we are to believe we're saved, but won't be saved from the great tribulation.

This is a problem? And you are so willing to NOT believe the guarantee that Jesus gave in John 10:28.

He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Do you believe that or not? Simple question. Shows where your loyalty lies.

Mine is with Scripture. The church has been severely persecuted throughout its history. Not the US, until now. You'd better tighten your seat belt. We now have a fully Marxist government. And all major elements of our society have been deceived and are "woke". This is the satanic deception that the Bible has prophesied.

Part of that problem is that during the great tribulation people will still be able to come into God's grace.

Again, no problem. Since the singular resurrection of all saved people doesn't occur until He comes back, all who respond during the tribulation will be involved in the resurrection.

Lastly, what scripture tells us the church will suffer the great tribulation?

Scripture doesn't have to make any kind of special worded sentence to satisfy those who want to see it. But this goes both ways.

You want a verse that specifically says the church will suffer the tribulation, yet you are quite willing to believe that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven, when there are NO verses that teach that.

Notice, I am not demanding any specific wording. I only ask for a verse clear enough to show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

And there are NONE.

Do you believe there will be just ONE resurrection of the saved? If not, then you can't believe 1 Cor 15:23 or Acts 24:15.

 

[BeeThePeace]

This is a problem? And you are so willing to NOT believe the guarantee that Jesus gave in John 10:28.

He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Do you believe that or not? Simple question. Shows where your loyalty lies.

Mine is with Scripture. The church has been severely persecuted throughout its history. Not the US, until now. You'd better tighten your seat belt. We now have a fully Marxist government. And all major elements of our society have been deceived and are "woke". This is the satanic deception that the Bible has prophesied.


Again, no problem. Since the singular resurrection of all saved people doesn't occur until He comes back, all who respond during the tribulation will be involved in the resurrection.


Scripture doesn't have to make any kind of special worded sentence to satisfy those who want to see it. But this goes both ways.

You want a verse that specifically says the church will suffer the tribulation, yet you are quite willing to believe that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven, when there are NO verses that teach that.

Notice, I am not demanding any specific wording. I only ask for a verse clear enough to show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

And there are NONE.

Do you believe there will be just ONE resurrection of the saved? If not, then you can't believe 1 Cor 15:23 or Acts 24:15.

I'll tell you what, you go with what you believe.

Ultimatums like yours are of no interest to me.

 

[Magenta]

Even Job knew he was saved...

Job 33:27b-28

 

[Magenta]

Titus 3:4-5

 

[Magenta]

1 John 5:11-13 + John 6:47

 

[Runningman]

If you actually believed that I doubt you'd continue to pursue the rapture topic further.

Who interjected the rapture topic into this thread?

What are you saying? That I’m a liar or being disingenuous? No need to make this go further than a simple Bible discussion.

Someone brought up rapture and I responded to it which you have yet to refute because you’re incapable of doing so. You’ll be refuted by scripture for months, no exaggeration, I’ve watched it happen on this site.

 

[Magenta]

From 2 Corinthians 5:17 and Romans 6:13

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'll tell you what, you go with what you believe.

Why, thank you. I think I will.

Ultimatums like yours are of no interest to me.

I'm confused as to what you are referring to here.

I said this:
FreeGrace2 said:
"This is a problem? And you are so willing to NOT believe the guarantee that Jesus gave in John 10:28.
He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Do you believe that or not? Simple question. Shows where your loyalty lies.
Mine is with Scripture."

I don't see any ultimatums here.

And this:
"Scripture doesn't have to make any kind of special worded sentence to satisfy those who want to see it. But this goes both ways.

You want a verse that specifically says the church will suffer the tribulation, yet you are quite willing to believe that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven, when there are NO verses that teach that.

Notice, I am not demanding any specific wording. I only ask for a verse clear enough to show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
And there are NONE. "

Rather than an ultimatum here I make clear that I am NOT demanding specific wording.

I ended with this question:
"Do you believe there will be just ONE resurrection of the saved? If not, then you can't believe 1 Cor 15:23 or Acts 24:15."

So, could you direct me to the words that you took as being an "ultimatum"? Thank you.

 

[arthurfleminger]

I'm wondering about pre-Nazi Germany, for sure a Christian country, albeit composed primarily of Lutherans and Catholics. After Hitler took power and showed up, many completely abandoned the Christian faith altogether. After all Jesus was a Jew and Nazi's couldn't be worshipping a Jew as their God.

The German people were solidly behind Hitler, he showed them victory after victory. Not only did the German people, who were once Christian, follow Hitler but they enthusiastically murdered Jewish men/women/children in the most cruel fashion possible. And they thought they were doing good, in fact the German soldier's belt buckle was engraved with the motto, 'Gott Mitt Uns' as they were doing all of the murdering. And, of course, the murdering wasn't confined to Jews but also to millions of Russians, Poles, and anyone else who defied their authority.

ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT IT IS SOOOOO LUCKY THAT MOST OF THESE NAZIS WERE CHRISTIAN AT ONE POINT. SO EVEN AFTER THEY TURNED INTO PAGAN MURDERS, GOD LOOKED THE OTHER WAY BECAUSE THEY'D BEEN SAVED PREVIOUSLY, EARLIER ON IN LIFE, THROUGH THE DOCTRINE OF OSAS!

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, "HOW SWEET IT IS!!!!!!"

The really ironic side to this OSAS picture is that the murdering Nazis went to heaven because, before they started their pagan murderous rampage, they accepted Jesus and the Holy Spirit into their hearts. And their 60 million victims were all sent to hell because the Jews didn't believe in Jesus, the Russians were atheists, and the Poles were Catholic.

 

[Runningman]

You’re not “always saved” until you’re immortal. You’re not immortal until this happens:

Luke 20:34-36 KJV
34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Prior to the resurrection, soul and body can still die or be destroyed per Matthew 10:28. Post-resurrection, there’s no such passage I’m aware of that says salvation can be lost.

 

[BeeThePeace]

The really ironic side to this OSAS picture is that the murdering Nazis went to heaven because, before they started their pagan murderous rampage, they accepted Jesus and the Holy Spirit into their hearts. And their 60 million victims were all sent to hell because the Jews didn't believe in Jesus, the Russians were atheists, and the Poles were Catholic.

The murdering Nazis were Roman Catholics. That would mean they're in purgatory, still.

The pope at the time, Pius the XII, aka/ Hitler's Pope, didn't excommunicate any of them, Including Hitler himself.

 

[BroTan]

Thanks for proving my point.

Romans 3: 1-8 "God remains faithful"
Romans 3: 9-20 "There is no one righteous"
Romans 3: 21-31 "Justified by faith"



John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Let's add more Bible to the conversation, because says in Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin. Also Paul says in (Rom. 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. If there is no law, there is no sin!

Sisters and brothers how come none of these verses are read in the church? They were also written by the apostle Paul, I’ll tell you why, because if they were read it would put an end to this false teaching attributed to Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. And you thought love was kissing and hugging and rolling around in bed. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. So if you say that you know God, but you don’t keep his commandments, lets see what the Lord had specially written for you. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

(1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[BeeThePeace]

What are you saying? That I’m a liar or being disingenuous? No need to make this go further than a simple Bible discussion.

Someone brought up rapture and I responded to it which you have yet to refute because you’re incapable of doing so. You’ll be refuted by scripture for months, no exaggeration, I’ve watched it happen on this site.

I've responded a number of times in this thread to the off topic interjection that is the rapture topic.
So clearly I am capable.

 

[BeeThePeace]

Let's add more Bible to the conversation, because says in Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin. Also Paul says in (Rom. 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. If there is no law, there is no sin!

Sisters and brothers how come none of these verses are read in the church? They were also written by the apostle Paul, I’ll tell you why, because if they were read it would put an end to this false teaching attributed to Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. And you thought love was kissing and hugging and rolling around in bed. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. So if you say that you know God, but you don’t keep his commandments, lets see what the Lord had specially written for you. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

(1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So the world would have remained an Eden if God didn't insert his law?

Wouldn't that mean sinners ask God to save them from himself?🤔

 

[peldom10]

It seems as though a lot of us Protestants have a great deal of faith in the OSAS tenet/credo/doctrine. And we seem to be taking advantage of it as much as we can with sexual abuse in our churches. Thank goodness we can sin all we want and still can't lose our salvation.

Just how guilty are we Protestants of the same sexual abuses that we like to point our finger at the Catholics. Maybe we need to take a close look in the mirror and see the 'LOG' in our own eye!!!!!!!!

How Common Is Sexual Abuse in the Protestant Church?

A recent study sponsored by LifeWay Christian Resources reveals that 10% of Protestants under the age of 35 have left the church previously because they felt that sexual abuse and misconduct were not taken seriously by the church. This is is twice any many people as the 5% of churchgoers from any religion who have walked away due to the mishandling of sexual abuse. Among younger people, 9% stated that they were no longer attending their former church because they did not feel protected from sexual misconduct.

Churchgoers between the ages of 18 to 34 are more likely than older churchgoers to report sexual abuse or harassment at church. Twenty-three percent of parishioners also know more people in their congregation who are victims.

More on Sexual Abuse in Protestant Churches

More than 375 leaders and volunteers in the Southern Baptist church have been charged with some form of sexual misconduct over the past 12 years. Over 200 of these volunteers and leaders pled guilty or were convicted for their crimes. However, the Southern Baptist Convention will not take significant steps to stop abuse in churches, claiming that each church should act independently to tend to this matter. As a result, several pastors and leaders who are registered sex offenders or accused of sexual misconduct are permitted to maintain their position in the church.

Several victims were pressured by their church leaders not to report sexual abuse. In some cases, victims were told that they brought on the abuse because of their sinful nature.

For sure we don't like to hear these things about ourselves, but they are true. It is easy to research Protestant sexual abuse cases on line, but we prefer not to. Hear no evil/See no evil........Out of Sight and out of mind. But, but, but God sees what's going on.

THANK GOODNESS WE CAN BE SEXUAL DEVIANTS AND PEDOPHILES AND STILL KNOW WE ARE SAVED!

???? your last sentence is repugnant.

..."sacrifice for forgiveness is not available where sin is present"....