Being born of water and Spirit
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Some have either never read the Bible fully, or still fail to understand it well. Attacking Religion is an Atheistic and Agnostic Practice.
"James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
"James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
St. James speaks of Religion as Good, to show Love and Compassion to Orphans and Widows, and keep oneself unspotted from the world, i.e. striving to avoid sin by God's Grace.
You spoke of Religion as Bad. So in that matter, David, you are disagreeing with the Word of God, and agreeing with Atheists and Agnostics. They agree Religion is bad. They are wrong.
Religion is Good, because Religion means Love for God, Devotion to Him, offering sacrifices, showing love to our neighbors for Christ's sake, and striving to grow in holiness by God's Grace.
You spoke of Religion as Bad. So in that matter, David, you are disagreeing with the Word of God, and agreeing with Atheists and Agnostics. They agree Religion is bad. They are wrong.
Religion is Good, because Religion means Love for God, Devotion to Him, offering sacrifices, showing love to our neighbors for Christ's sake, and striving to grow in holiness by God's Grace.
Nothing wrong with 'Good religion' but it can NEVER bring Salvation.
ONLY Faith in the FINISHED Work of Christ who shed His Blood for remission of sins.
Religion always seeks to replace faith with outward works.
The Apostle Paul, Apostle Peter and James say that true Faith comes first and true 'good works' will follow that Faith.
'Good religion' will always tell you it cannot save you.
BAD religion always tells you it can save you.
Choose the RIGHT HAND of GOD.
ONLY Faith in the FINISHED Work of Christ who shed His Blood for remission of sins.
Religion always seeks to replace faith with outward works.
The Apostle Paul, Apostle Peter and James say that true Faith comes first and true 'good works' will follow that Faith.
'Good religion' will always tell you it cannot save you.
BAD religion always tells you it can save you.
Choose the RIGHT HAND of GOD.
You seem to have an all or nothing mindset; that's a very simplistic way to look at things.
You say religion "always" seeks to replace faith with works. You have no possible way to know that. Have you done a survey? Have conducted a formal study? No, you haven't. You use the "religion always bad" excuse to smear those you don't like or who disagree with you.
You say religion "always" seeks to replace faith with works. You have no possible way to know that. Have you done a survey? Have conducted a formal study? No, you haven't. You use the "religion always bad" excuse to smear those you don't like or who disagree with you.
Okay let me break this down then since you seem so committed to saying I am putting words in the mouth of Jesus. Now everyone can read the scripture and see for themselves.
The context is water baptism and the thing that is fulfilling righteousness is water baptism. That's what Jesus said. You have a problem with God's word take it up with Him, I'm just a messenger.
Matthew 3:14,15 KJV
14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
That's perfectly clear to me. Here's how the NLT words it if you prefer:
Matthew 3:14,15 NLT
14But John tried to talk him out of it. “I am the one who needs to be baptized by you,” he said, “so why are you coming to me?”
15But Jesus said, “It should be done, for we must carry out all that God requires.” So John agreed to baptize him.
The context is water baptism and the thing that is fulfilling righteousness is water baptism. That's what Jesus said. You have a problem with God's word take it up with Him, I'm just a messenger.
Matthew 3:14,15 KJV
14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
That's perfectly clear to me. Here's how the NLT words it if you prefer:
Matthew 3:14,15 NLT
14But John tried to talk him out of it. “I am the one who needs to be baptized by you,” he said, “so why are you coming to me?”
15But Jesus said, “It should be done, for we must carry out all that God requires.” So John agreed to baptize him.
Natural birth is the first birth and it isn't how to be "born again" which would require literally going back into your mother's womb and being born a second time. This is what Nicodemus thought and it's wrong. Born again of "water and Spirit" are water baptism and Spiritual rebirth and it means to be "born from above."
You seem to think you're the authority on what Jesus said or inferred and that when other's don't see it your way they are in error. What I see here is that He said that water baptism is righteous. You don't see that which is unfortunate. I'm pretty sure 99% of people would just have to disagree with you on that.
Ok...let's start here...in John's gospel, the very first chapter in verse 12 John relates that ANYONE who receives Jesus and believes in His name is indeed "Born From Above" as a child of God's.
Nicodemus starts his meeting with Jesus proclaiming these very things. Jesus doesn't say "You need to become Born From Above" or Again...Jesus is relating the truth of the situation...that Nicodemus is in fact was "Born From Above" which had significance in Jewish society of a recognized status.
That Nicodemus's existence had already been foretold in Old Testament prophecy some 6-800 years before. Which Nicodemus knows very well but doesn't believe talks about him....of course the focus of the passage is the Messiah...not the Messiah's believers....but Nicodemus is having issues keeping up or believing God knows him personally.
Only in today's westernized, self-important civilization do we have the hutzpah to take such a notion for granted while dismissing Jesus's omniscience.
Nicodemus went to Jesus to let him know that he, as a member of the Sanhedrin, was a supporter of Jesus's ministry and was going to endorse his ministry. To give it weight and credence...
It never dawned on his wildest imagination that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, the Very Son of God...and that the reverse of endorsements was needed...which Jesus did give.
Nicodemus starts his meeting with Jesus proclaiming these very things. Jesus doesn't say "You need to become Born From Above" or Again...Jesus is relating the truth of the situation...that Nicodemus is in fact was "Born From Above" which had significance in Jewish society of a recognized status.
That Nicodemus's existence had already been foretold in Old Testament prophecy some 6-800 years before. Which Nicodemus knows very well but doesn't believe talks about him....of course the focus of the passage is the Messiah...not the Messiah's believers....but Nicodemus is having issues keeping up or believing God knows him personally.
Only in today's westernized, self-important civilization do we have the hutzpah to take such a notion for granted while dismissing Jesus's omniscience.
Nicodemus went to Jesus to let him know that he, as a member of the Sanhedrin, was a supporter of Jesus's ministry and was going to endorse his ministry. To give it weight and credence...
It never dawned on his wildest imagination that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, the Very Son of God...and that the reverse of endorsements was needed...which Jesus did give.
You have "totally missed it" with regard to the 'grammar of the language'. (Which is even more interesting considering the particular parts of the above verses you have bolded.)
The focus of these verses is not water baptism.
It is about Jesus being baptized by John.
This is what is being said to be "needed"/"required" to 'fulfil all righteousness'.
It is not about water baptism in the slightest.
~
You are not 'listening' to the Word - so that it may show you what it really actually and plainly says. Instead, you are superimposing onto it what you want it to say. (It may be subconscious - without you realizing it.)
The focus of these verses is not water baptism.
It is about Jesus being baptized by John.
This is what is being said to be "needed"/"required" to 'fulfil all righteousness'.
It is not about water baptism in the slightest.
~
You are not 'listening' to the Word - so that it may show you what it really actually and plainly says. Instead, you are superimposing onto it what you want it to say. (It may be subconscious - without you realizing it.)
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@Runningman
I have noticed over the past several months that you have been falling into more-and-more error with regard to the interpretation of scripture.
Also, you seem to have been getting more-and-more "headstrong" concerning you (the new Christian) being right in your interpretation of scripture while others (Christians who have studied the scriptures for decades) cannot possibly be right.
I don't know who/what you are listening to or reading, but you need to get away from them/it.
It/They are causing you to go the wrong way.
I will pray for you, that you may get away from this bad influence.
I have noticed over the past several months that you have been falling into more-and-more error with regard to the interpretation of scripture.
Also, you seem to have been getting more-and-more "headstrong" concerning you (the new Christian) being right in your interpretation of scripture while others (Christians who have studied the scriptures for decades) cannot possibly be right.
I don't know who/what you are listening to or reading, but you need to get away from them/it.
It/They are causing you to go the wrong way.
I will pray for you, that you may get away from this bad influence.
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here is what born of water and spirit means, Jesus says this is something Nicodemus should have known as a teacher of the law. so this is something found in the OT. here it is
Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
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@Runningman
Admittedly, the length of time spent studying the scriptures is not an accurate measure of having the proper understanding of the scriptures - 'more time' does not automatically mean 'more understanding'.
I said this (above, quoted) to illustrate that you seem to have an increasing pride-based "I am right and that is all there is to it!" attitude with regard to your interpretation of scripture - to the point of completely ignoring the admonishments of others.
Please consider taking a step back to reconsider the situation.
I am not against you.
I think it is wonderful that you want to understand the scriptures better.
But, it can (and usually does) require a bit of a slow-and-steady approach - being too "gung ho" about it can lead to much error.
Admittedly, the length of time spent studying the scriptures is not an accurate measure of having the proper understanding of the scriptures - 'more time' does not automatically mean 'more understanding'.
I said this (above, quoted) to illustrate that you seem to have an increasing pride-based "I am right and that is all there is to it!" attitude with regard to your interpretation of scripture - to the point of completely ignoring the admonishments of others.
Please consider taking a step back to reconsider the situation.
I am not against you.
I think it is wonderful that you want to understand the scriptures better.
But, it can (and usually does) require a bit of a slow-and-steady approach - being too "gung ho" about it can lead to much error.
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No that's false. Let me break that down for you and let's look at some different versions/translation and see if that makes it more simpler to understand.
Action: be water baptized
Action: Let it (water baptism) be so
Action: fulfill all righteousness
Action: Then he consented [to water baptize Jesus]
Matthew 3:14,15 NIV
14But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.
Action: be water baptized
Action: Let it (water baptism) be so
Action: fulfill all righteousness
Action: Then he consented [to water baptize Jesus]
Matthew 3:14,15 ESV
14John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.
Action: Needs to be water baptized
Action: It (water baptism) should be done
Action: carry out all God requires
Action: John agreed to water baptize Jesus
Matthew 3:14,15 NLT
14But John tried to talk him out of it. “I am the one who needs to be baptized by you,” he said, “so why are you coming to me?”
15But Jesus said, “It should be done, for we must carry out all that God requires." So John agreed to baptize him.
Action: be water baptized
Action: Let it (water baptism) be so
Action: fulfill all righteousness
Action: Then he consented [to water baptize Jesus]
Matthew 3:14,15 NIV
14But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.
Action: be water baptized
Action: Let it (water baptism) be so
Action: fulfill all righteousness
Action: Then he consented [to water baptize Jesus]
Matthew 3:14,15 ESV
14John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.
Action: Needs to be water baptized
Action: It (water baptism) should be done
Action: carry out all God requires
Action: John agreed to water baptize Jesus
Matthew 3:14,15 NLT
14But John tried to talk him out of it. “I am the one who needs to be baptized by you,” he said, “so why are you coming to me?”
15But Jesus said, “It should be done, for we must carry out all that God requires." So John agreed to baptize him.
Sure thing Gary. I respect your opinion since you're always polite to me.
However, you'll find that people who level false accusations against me such as being a troll, intentionally putting words in Jesus' mouth, saying I am possessed by an unclean spirit, saying I am an unbeliever, calling me a liar, talking about my race and ethnicity, etc will be opposed at every level by me. Within the past couple weeks those are the kind of things people have said.
What you may have witnessed are people who have hostility toward me and are therefore no longer afforded the courtesy and dignity they are attempting to strip me of. I wish you would go back and read all of my comments and see that I simply state what the Bible says and it attracts unprovoked hostility.
However, you'll find that people who level false accusations against me such as being a troll, intentionally putting words in Jesus' mouth, saying I am possessed by an unclean spirit, saying I am an unbeliever, calling me a liar, talking about my race and ethnicity, etc will be opposed at every level by me. Within the past couple weeks those are the kind of things people have said.
What you may have witnessed are people who have hostility toward me and are therefore no longer afforded the courtesy and dignity they are attempting to strip me of. I wish you would go back and read all of my comments and see that I simply state what the Bible says and it attracts unprovoked hostility.
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Matthew 3:14,15 has nothing whatsoever to do with Christians being water baptized. It is about Jesus fulfilling the will of the Father.
Everything about the baptism of Jesus was to 'fulfil all righteousness'.
Everything Jesus did during His ministry was to 'fulfil all righteousness'.
This, in its broader scope, is what these two verses are concerned with.
Everything about the baptism of Jesus was to 'fulfil all righteousness'.
Everything Jesus did during His ministry was to 'fulfil all righteousness'.
This, in its broader scope, is what these two verses are concerned with.