Being born of water and Spirit

[JohnDB]

Here...let me spell out why Paul says what he says.

I usually don't use chapter and verse numbers...because it's a means of trying to measure God.

Exodus 32:28.
The key here is the scene and "about 3,000 people died that day"

Contrasting with Acts 2:41....the actions of the scene that happened "And about 3000 became believers that day"

So Paul sums it up saying that the letter kills but the Spirit brings life.

 

[randyk]

If we have faith in Christ we will have faith in everything He said and not only the the things He did. Christ said water baptism is righteous, part of being born of water and Spirit, and is a commandment in the great commission.

Part of why water baptism is so unclear to so many people is that it isn't mentioned consistently as a requirement for forgiveness of sins, salvation, eternal life, etc. There is enough material in the Bible to build a case for salvation through faith alone and there is certainly enough material to build a case for the requirement of baptism. We need to accept both and unite the requirement of water and faith.

Where I am currently at is that water baptism is necessary for the salvation of the glorified resurrected body. Jesus told us repeatedly to have faith in Him for salvation and then only mentioned water baptism a bit.

My line of thinking goes like this: if Jesus said "be born of water and Spirit" then what happened if I am only born of Spirit? That means my soul is born again. A soul born of God's Spirit can't be unsaved. What if I am only born of water? Like a live birth through amniotic fluid, water baptism is our physical body dying and being resurrected. Water and Spirit is therefore physical salvation of the resurrected body and soul salvation.

John 1:12,13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:5-7
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Now consider what Jesus said below:

Mark 16:16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

To reverse engineer Mark 16:16, Jesus said you if you believe then you won't be damned which means you won't be judged for your sins which means salvation. However, believing and water baptism is salvation, too, but it's salvation of both the soul and something else... in my view that's water baptism for the physical body. I already know the rebuttal about Mark 16:16 and there isn't enough evidence to not accept it as truth.

For Romans 6:4,5... In the likeness of His death (going down into the water like you're being buried in the ground like someone who died... and then rising up out of the water as if raising from the dead) except you don't actually die and don't actually get resurrected yet. Death is later and resurrection is later too. Romans 6:4,5 says water baptism is necessary for resurrection.

Romans 6:4,5
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

For 1 Peter 3:21... it point blank says that water baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That means if you are water baptized then you'll be saved via a bodily resurrection.

1 Peter 3:21
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

For 1 Corinthians 15:29... the answer to this question is that immersion in water baptism is pointless unless there is a resurrection.

1 Cor. 15:29
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Way overthought, in my opinion. I do appreciate the confusion--I've had it for a long time, too. But I've come to the conclusion that ritualistic religion is the culprit, and not the Scriptures. The organized church made such a big thing out of ceremonies and sacraments like baptism that it became part of the salvation ritual, when it really shouldn't be!

Being born of water is simply being physically born. As you said, birth water. Being born of the Spirit is being renewed in the knowledge of God by a complete commitment to Christ. We choose to follow his Spirit in all that we do. As such, we are filled with the Spirit, and have a reborn nature, a spiritual nature that is able to overcome the sin tendencies in us.

The formula, receive Christ and be baptized will save you, was not intended to be a list of requirements for salvation. It is just a statement of fact, implying that new converts normally get baptized to publicly display their choice to live for Christ. Those who do so, ie those who receive Christ and make a public display, will be saved--just a statement of fact, and not a list of requirements for salvation.

 

[JohnDB]

Being born of water is simply being physically born

Water is a symbol...a type. It is a reference to the Law.

That's why Jesus went walking on the SEA of Galilee.

 

[Runningman]

You are adding to what Jesus said. I reject your additions. I accept what Jesus said

I reject your interpretation of what Jesus said. I accept what Jesus said.

 

[Runningman]

Way overthought, in my opinion. I do appreciate the confusion--I've had it for a long time, too. But I've come to the conclusion that ritualistic religion is the culprit, and not the Scriptures. The organized church made such a big thing out of ceremonies and sacraments like baptism that it became part of the salvation ritual, when it really shouldn't be!

Being born of water is simply being physically born. As you said, birth water. Being born of the Spirit is being renewed in the knowledge of God by a complete commitment to Christ. We choose to follow his Spirit in all that we do. As such, we are filled with the Spirit, and have a reborn nature, a spiritual nature that is able to overcome the sin tendencies in us.

The formula, receive Christ and be baptized will save you, was not intended to be a list of requirements for salvation. It is just a statement of fact, implying that new converts normally get baptized to publicly display their choice to live for Christ. Those who do so, ie those who receive Christ and make a public display, will be saved--just a statement of fact, and not a list of requirements for salvation.

Jesus doesn’t need to tell people who are alive they need to be born. Nicodemus thought it was natural birth, too, and clearly it wasn’t. John 1 says that being born of flesh is of no value to being born again.

John 1:12,13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Furthermore, someone born of a natural birth is not born again because that’s their first birth. Therefore, water baptism is the water component of being born of water and Spirit. I assure you this is not overthought, but merely clear and coherent detangling of misinterpretations running rampant in the church.

 

[Runningman]

It's not exactly an uncommon verse. It's in Romans, written by Paul, the Apostle to the Goyim. (That's you)

That’s me? Now you presume to know my race or ethnicity. Wow you really take this way too far. 1 strike you’re out.

 

[JohnDB]

That’s me? Now you presume to know my race or ethnicity. Wow you really take this way too far. 1 strike you’re out.

Goyim is Gentile...meaning not Jewish ancestry.

 

[JohnDB]

I reject your interpretation of what Jesus said. I accept what Jesus said.

And this is the very reason you have been labeled as to your demeanor.

You have been explained to on many levels and in many fashions but your ears are closed. You refuse to learn or understand why we are saying what we are saying.

Which violates a major tenant of the faith.

The ONLY way to become a Christian is to admit you were wrong...it's NOT a "one and done" thing. Only continually admitting you are wrong is the path...anything else is NOT the path.

Try again.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Thanks for stopping by to tell me to have fun, I guess. Please feel free to contribute something to the thread if you have time.

I have to be in the mood to debate.

 

[randyk]

Jesus doesn’t need to tell people who are alive they need to be born. Nicodemus thought it was natural birth, too, and clearly it wasn’t. John 1 says that being born of flesh is of no value to being born again.

John 1:12,13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Furthermore, someone born of a natural birth is not born again because that’s their first birth. Therefore, water baptism is the water component of being born of water and Spirit. I assure you this is not overthought, but merely clear and coherent detangling of misinterpretations running rampant in the church.

You could be right, but I question that. If Nicodemus took Jesus' statement about being born of water to refer to natural birth then you can't say it was illogical to be taken that way. And that's what you're saying, that Jesus illogically told someone to be born naturally when that is an absurdity.

So I don't think Jesus was ordering people to be born naturally--I think he was just stating a fact, that people are, as a matter of fact, born naturally, of water. In saying this, he was illustrating how people must also be born spiritually.

So Jesus was mandating a spiritual birth because it is just as essential as being born naturally. As one is essential for existence, the spiritual person must essentially have a spiritual birth. The fact that the spiritual birth is something we choose, and natural birth is not, is beside the point.

Nicodemus, I think, rightfully understood the necessity of natural birth, ie the "born of water" part mentioned by Jesus. What he failed to understand is how this applies to the spiritual birth, which does *not* involve water at all.

 

[Runningman]

And this is the very reason you have been labeled as to your demeanor.

You have been explained to on many levels and in many fashions but your ears are closed. You refuse to learn or understand why we are saying what we are saying.

Which violates a major tenant of the faith.

The ONLY way to become a Christian is to admit you were wrong...it's NOT a "one and done" thing. Only continually admitting you are wrong is the path...anything else is NOT the path.

Try again.

Right or wrong, I don't even care what you say anymore. You want to make this personal and about race and ethnicity you can find someone else to talk to.

 

[Runningman]

You could be right, but I question that. If Nicodemus took Jesus' statement about being born of water to refer to natural birth then you can't say it was illogical to be taken that way. And that's what you're saying, that Jesus illogically told someone to be born naturally when that is an absurdity.

So I don't think Jesus was ordering people to be born naturally--I think he was just stating a fact, that people are, as a matter of fact, born naturally, of water. In saying this, he was illustrating how people must also be born spiritually.

So Jesus was mandating a spiritual birth because it is just as essential as being born naturally. As one is essential for existence, the spiritual person must essentially have a spiritual birth. The fact that the spiritual birth is something we choose, and natural birth is not, is beside the point.

Well, amniotic fluid isn't water, neither is blood, saliva, or any other body fluids with a high water content. When water is mentioned in the Bible it is always a reference to real literal H20.

 

[DavidTree]

Didn't get enough of debate in the last water baptism thread a few weeks ago?

i busted out laughing on this - Thank You Brother

 

[randyk]

Water is a symbol...a type. It is a reference to the Law.

That's why Jesus went walking on the SEA of Galilee.

There are indeed two ways to look at "water birth," natural birth or baptismal birth. The reason I choose to accept natural birth is because Jesus is contrasting water birth with spiritual birth. If water birth is spiritual birth, then it cannot be contrasted with spiritual birth.

In other words, If water birth is in reality "spiritual birth," then Jesus was just comparing a way of describing "spiritual birth" with "spiritual birth," which is nonsense. But he was rather comparing natural birth with spiritual birth to explain, by natural means, things that must be spiritually discerned.

 

[DavidTree]

I’m a new Christian. Many things I have learned about the Bible have occurred within the past 3 years. I am always willing to change what I believe to be more accurate. You really know nothing about me. You just want to judge me and argue.

I take it you’re a mature Christian? What kind of example are you setting here today?

Well now, this explains many things young man - we love you in Christ and you can greatly benefit from the encouragement and words from your Brethren on this subject.

Start with this Praise Song:

 

[randyk]

Well, amniotic fluid isn't water, neither is blood, saliva, or any other body fluids with a high water content. When water is mentioned in the Bible it is always a reference to real literal H20.

Well, that's a good question. When water came out of Jesus' side, was it real water, or something else? I'd have to study this out.

 

[DavidTree]

There are indeed two ways to look at "water birth," natural birth or baptismal birth. The reason I choose to accept natural birth is because Jesus is contrasting water birth with spiritual birth. If water birth is spiritual birth, then it cannot be contrasted with spiritual birth.

In other words, If water birth is in reality "spiritual birth," then Jesus was just comparing a way of describing "spiritual birth" with "spiritual birth," which is nonsense. But he was rather comparing natural birth with spiritual birth to explain, by natural means, things that must be spiritually discerned.

In John 3:1-21 the LORD permanently and forever separates natural water from the Spirit so that it is CLEAR = only by the SPIRIT can one be Born Again

 

[JohnDB]

Right or wrong, I don't even care what you say anymore. You want to make this personal and about race and ethnicity you can find someone else to talk to.

Wow...

How in the world you got there from here is a mystery....there are no roads connecting the two places.

Paul is the teacher for the Roman/Westernized world...a culture completely different than the Jewish/Semitic culture. And unless you understand the nuances of how the two are wildly different...you will make mistake after mistake. And considering that your immortal SOUL is at stake here....maybe you should listen to those who have been at this for a very long time.

Your choice...but the burning sensation in your heart later will not feel pleasant when you think back on today.

 

[DavidTree]

Jesus doesn’t need to tell people who are alive they need to be born. Nicodemus thought it was natural birth, too, and clearly it wasn’t. John 1 says that being born of flesh is of no value to being born again.

John 1:12,13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Furthermore, someone born of a natural birth is not born again because that’s their first birth. Therefore, water baptism is the water component of being born of water and Spirit. I assure you this is not overthought, but merely clear and coherent detangling of misinterpretations running rampant in the church.

In John 3:1-21 the LORD permanently and forever separates natural water from the Spirit so that it is CLEAR = only by the SPIRIT can one be Born Again

Listen to your Brethen that love you and are speaking the TRUTH.

Religion always divides for it adds to the FINISHED Work of CHRIST on the Cross.

 

[JohnDB]

You could be right, but I question that. If Nicodemus took Jesus' statement about being born of water to refer to natural birth then you can't say it was illogical to be taken that way. And that's what you're saying, that Jesus illogically told someone to be born naturally when that is an absurdity.

So I don't think Jesus was ordering people to be born naturally--I think he was just stating a fact, that people are, as a matter of fact, born naturally, of water. In saying this, he was illustrating how people must also be born spiritually.

So Jesus was mandating a spiritual birth because it is just as essential as being born naturally. As one is essential for existence, the spiritual person must essentially have a spiritual birth. The fact that the spiritual birth is something we choose, and natural birth is not, is beside the point.

Nicodemus, I think, rightfully understood the necessity of natural birth, ie the "born of water" part mentioned by Jesus. What he failed to understand is how this applies to the spiritual birth, which does *not* involve water at all.

Nicodemus was referring to the title of "Born From Above". It was a designation of a group of individuals from Israel's history. Nicodemus did not know that he specifically was mentioned in a prophecy before he was born. (A specific requirement of Born From Above)

That's where the confusion comes into play...
When the first English lessons and translations into English were made...the ancient Anthropology was unknown at the time. So a mistranslation happened.

And perpetuated by well meaning people.