Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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Yes, Paul was a Christian. His being "disqualified" did not pertain to the possibility of Paul losing his salvation but of failing in his role/responsibility/duty as a disciple/preacher of the gospel of/for Christ, and thereby becoming disqualified (theoretically) in that sense. If you look at the preceding verses, I think you will see that his preaching of the gospel was the subject at-hand, not his salvation. Of course, that disqualification never occurred.
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John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
From this verse, WHEN does a believer POSSESS eternal life? It says those who believe (present tense) HAVE (as in possess, also in the present tense) eternal life.
So, we KNOW from this verse that the MOMENT of saving faith in Christ, the believer possesses eternal life.
Now, does the Bible teach anywhere that eternal life can be revoked? No.
Now, John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
This verse very clearly says that those given eternal life shall NEVER PERISH.
So, you now have a choice to make. Either continue believing the very unbiblical heresy that salvation can be lost, or accept the clear words of Jesus Himself about how to receive eternal life (Jn 5:24), and the result of having eternal life (Jn 10:28).
Your choice.
Didn't you bother to read anything I posted? I have already agreed that we can forsake God. So get it already.
And pay attention to and respond to what I post.
You erroneously equate "forsaking God" with losing salvation, yet I gave you 2 verses that absolutely REFUTE that nutty idea.
When a person believes, they possess eternal life. John 5:24
When a person receives eternal life, they shall never perish. John 10:28
So, you have a choice. Believe the words Jesus said or reject them.
From this verse, WHEN does a believer POSSESS eternal life? It says those who believe (present tense) HAVE (as in possess, also in the present tense) eternal life.
So, we KNOW from this verse that the MOMENT of saving faith in Christ, the believer possesses eternal life.
Now, does the Bible teach anywhere that eternal life can be revoked? No.
Now, John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
This verse very clearly says that those given eternal life shall NEVER PERISH.
So, you now have a choice to make. Either continue believing the very unbiblical heresy that salvation can be lost, or accept the clear words of Jesus Himself about how to receive eternal life (Jn 5:24), and the result of having eternal life (Jn 10:28).
Your choice.
Didn't you bother to read anything I posted? I have already agreed that we can forsake God. So get it already.
And pay attention to and respond to what I post.
You erroneously equate "forsaking God" with losing salvation, yet I gave you 2 verses that absolutely REFUTE that nutty idea.
When a person believes, they possess eternal life. John 5:24
When a person receives eternal life, they shall never perish. John 10:28
So, you have a choice. Believe the words Jesus said or reject them.
Are you even conscious? I've already refuted your unbiblical ideas.
When a person believes, they possess eternal life. John 5:24
When a person receives eternal life, they shall never perish. John 10:28
So, you have a choice. Either believe what Jesus said about eternal security, or reject what He said.
When a person believes, they possess eternal life. John 5:24
When a person receives eternal life, they shall never perish. John 10:28
So, you have a choice. Either believe what Jesus said about eternal security, or reject what He said.
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Sorry about John 6:70. I did the Greek off the top of my head and thought the Greek word for Demon was used here but it is actually the Greek Word for Devil - Diablos.
You still need to answer the questions posed in my previous post. You may say God having chosen is to "service" and read the verses that way but are not these verses to service for the ones who are saved? Therefore - being chose to serve is equal to being chosen to Salvation. How can one be of service to God - if that one is not a part of God's salvation? Service to God apart from Salvation would be in name only.
For example - Judas - was chosen to fulfill the prophecies. He therefore, served a purpose but he was not in the service of God. When one is Regenerated and Converted, that one desires to serve God and the cause of Christ but one, such as Judas, was "used" by God but he had no true desire to serve the Lord.
You still need to answer the questions posed in my previous post. You may say God having chosen is to "service" and read the verses that way but are not these verses to service for the ones who are saved? Therefore - being chose to serve is equal to being chosen to Salvation. How can one be of service to God - if that one is not a part of God's salvation? Service to God apart from Salvation would be in name only.
For example - Judas - was chosen to fulfill the prophecies. He therefore, served a purpose but he was not in the service of God. When one is Regenerated and Converted, that one desires to serve God and the cause of Christ but one, such as Judas, was "used" by God but he had no true desire to serve the Lord.
FreeGrace2 said:
You've certainly ignored (or flatout rejected) Jesus' words in John 5:24 and 10:28.
Well, thanks for demonstrating your coma. I have already quoted both verses to you and pointed out what they SAY. And you come back with this nonsense about your childish insinuation that it's "too much trouble to quote Scripture for" you.
You need to wake up and grow up if you are serious about having an adult discussion. If not, maybe that suggests you are a troll.
Did you take the time to actually read with comprehension this passage??
What "is to be burned"? Do you actually think the dirt burns? Have you ever burned dirt? v.7-8 speaks of what the ground (dirt) produces. Either it bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, or it bears thorns and briars.
So, the Bible SAYS it is the thorns and briars that "is to be burned". No farmer would give you the time of day about the nutty idea that the dirt is to be burned. In fact, YOU CAN'T BURN DIRT.
What a farmer CAN burn are thorns and briars. This passage is parallel to what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 3-
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
For everyone who automatically thinks "hell" or the lake of fire when they come to "fire" in the Bible, like you have done with Heb 6:4-9, every believer's works will be "revealed with fire". This is a description of God's evaluation of our works.
Note what will be burned up: v.12 gives us what our works are made of: gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw.
Do I have to mansplain to you which of these materials will even burn? Paul was comparing works done in the power of the Spirit (being filled with the Spirit), gold, silver and costly stones, with works done in the flesh (not filled with the Spirit), wood, hay, and straw.
This parallels Heb 6 and what it burned.
btw, for all Arminians, v.15 proves that salvation cannot be lost; EVEN IF one's human good is all burned up, "the builder will suffer loss, but YET WILL BE SAVED."
Too many stop at "suffer loss" and PRESUME/ASSUME that it refers to salvation; loss of salvation. But Paul nailed the coffin on the unbiblical idea that salvation can be lost. He clearly said even though a believer's good works done in the flesh will be burned up, which means no reward, they WILL BE SAVED.
So now you've been introduced to 2 more passages that teach eternal security. Your excuses for rejecting eternal security have run out.
You have been shown very clear Scripture.
You have a choice to make. Accept the Bible, or reject it.
You've certainly ignored (or flatout rejected) Jesus' words in John 5:24 and 10:28.
Well, thanks for demonstrating your coma. I have already quoted both verses to you and pointed out what they SAY. And you come back with this nonsense about your childish insinuation that it's "too much trouble to quote Scripture for" you.
You need to wake up and grow up if you are serious about having an adult discussion. If not, maybe that suggests you are a troll.
Did you take the time to actually read with comprehension this passage??
What "is to be burned"? Do you actually think the dirt burns? Have you ever burned dirt? v.7-8 speaks of what the ground (dirt) produces. Either it bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, or it bears thorns and briars.
So, the Bible SAYS it is the thorns and briars that "is to be burned". No farmer would give you the time of day about the nutty idea that the dirt is to be burned. In fact, YOU CAN'T BURN DIRT.
What a farmer CAN burn are thorns and briars. This passage is parallel to what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 3-
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
For everyone who automatically thinks "hell" or the lake of fire when they come to "fire" in the Bible, like you have done with Heb 6:4-9, every believer's works will be "revealed with fire". This is a description of God's evaluation of our works.
Note what will be burned up: v.12 gives us what our works are made of: gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw.
Do I have to mansplain to you which of these materials will even burn? Paul was comparing works done in the power of the Spirit (being filled with the Spirit), gold, silver and costly stones, with works done in the flesh (not filled with the Spirit), wood, hay, and straw.
This parallels Heb 6 and what it burned.
btw, for all Arminians, v.15 proves that salvation cannot be lost; EVEN IF one's human good is all burned up, "the builder will suffer loss, but YET WILL BE SAVED."
Too many stop at "suffer loss" and PRESUME/ASSUME that it refers to salvation; loss of salvation. But Paul nailed the coffin on the unbiblical idea that salvation can be lost. He clearly said even though a believer's good works done in the flesh will be burned up, which means no reward, they WILL BE SAVED.
So now you've been introduced to 2 more passages that teach eternal security. Your excuses for rejecting eternal security have run out.
You have been shown very clear Scripture.
You have a choice to make. Accept the Bible, or reject it.
No, no - that's not the way this is going to go. If you are going to defend your view, then you must answer the questions posed to you. Making claims and yet, not answering the oppositions questions, proves you do not have a good foundation for you doctrine.
So I repeat:
Let's begin shall we? Scripture declares the following about Depravity:
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that is seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Therefore, the subject of Depravity is described here, as having 7 effects on all of mankind. They are:
1.) ALL are under sin.
2.) None is Righteous.
3.) None has Understanding about the things of God. Obviously man understands somethings: Sciences, philosophy, medicine...etc.
4.) None is seeking after God.
5.) ALL turned aside from God.
6.) ALL became worthless.
7.) None do acts of Good (From God's perspective), NO NOT ONE.
Are these six points, not what the Word of God says? In particular, do not these verses place ALL under these indictments? If not - How not? Does the word "none" mean none - does the word "all" mean all?
Please then give answer to the following questions: Reposted -
Several questions then arise from these indictments, as to how mankind can achieve Salvation or believe on Christ or Trust God?
1.) If all are under sin and love sin - Then why would they, of their own accord, desire to pursue righteousness?
2.) If none has understanding, about the things of God - Then how can that person ever come to understand the danger they are in?
3.) If none are seeking after God - Then how does one go from that condition, to a condition that desires and seeks God?
4.) If all have turned aside - Then how do they turnback? Through understanding spiritual things and searching after God. BUT WAIT - There is that little problem of none having understanding and none are seeking.
5.) If all are unprofitable or worthless - Then how does that condition change?
6.) If none is doing GOOD but yet we think we are - How does this message penetrate the depraved mind?
FreeGrace2 said:
This proves how much you totally FAIL to understand the Bible.
You should begin with believing Scripture. Start with John 5:24 and John 10:28 and then see the clear parallel between Heb 6:4-9 and 1 Cor 3:12-15.
This proves how much you totally FAIL to understand the Bible.
You should begin with believing Scripture. Start with John 5:24 and John 10:28 and then see the clear parallel between Heb 6:4-9 and 1 Cor 3:12-15.
FreeGrace2 said:
As you know, the proof that election is to salvation is a verse that plainly says so. So all your questions don't help the discussion. What you need are verses that SAY that salvation is to election.
No problem. The point was that Jesus did elect/choose Judas as the betrayer. That is election to service.
Yes! That's my point about Eph 1:4. God has chosen "us in Him". That IS believers. In fact, v.19 defines "us" as "us who BELIEVE".
However, as John 6:70 plainly shows, Judas, an unbeliever, was chosen to be the betrayer. So God chooses both believers and unbelievers for His own purposes.
What about the people (nation) of Israel? Were all of them in the OT saved? Of course not. Yet, the whole group was an elect group.
Nope. Then Judas was saved. That is pure nonsense. And that would mean EVERY JEW in the OT was saved.
Ask Judas. Ask every Jew from the OT. You have to understand that God's plan calls for His will to be done. And He chooses/elects who He determines who will advance His plan.
Was Christ's crucifixion part of God's plan? Of course it was. In fact, it was prophesied in the OT, from Genesis 3 forward. God from His omniscience knew that Judas would definitely betray the Savior if given the opportunity, for he was the ultimate opportunist, so God placed him WHEN and WHERE He did in history to accomplish His plan. Acts 17:26 - 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
What does that even mean? John 6:70 is clear enough. So is the chosen nation of Israel.
You've just got to be kidding!!! Seriously???
This isn't about how the "chosen ones" think about it, or their desire. It's about God's plan, plain and simple.
It seems you are rather naive about all this.
But the real issue is that you know you don't have any verse that actually says that election is to salvation, or any verse that shows that God elects to salvation.
And the glaring example of Judas and the entire nation of Israel refute your attempt to link election to service to election to salvation.
As you know, the proof that election is to salvation is a verse that plainly says so. So all your questions don't help the discussion. What you need are verses that SAY that salvation is to election.
No problem. The point was that Jesus did elect/choose Judas as the betrayer. That is election to service.
Yes! That's my point about Eph 1:4. God has chosen "us in Him". That IS believers. In fact, v.19 defines "us" as "us who BELIEVE".
However, as John 6:70 plainly shows, Judas, an unbeliever, was chosen to be the betrayer. So God chooses both believers and unbelievers for His own purposes.
What about the people (nation) of Israel? Were all of them in the OT saved? Of course not. Yet, the whole group was an elect group.
Nope. Then Judas was saved. That is pure nonsense. And that would mean EVERY JEW in the OT was saved.
Ask Judas. Ask every Jew from the OT. You have to understand that God's plan calls for His will to be done. And He chooses/elects who He determines who will advance His plan.
Was Christ's crucifixion part of God's plan? Of course it was. In fact, it was prophesied in the OT, from Genesis 3 forward. God from His omniscience knew that Judas would definitely betray the Savior if given the opportunity, for he was the ultimate opportunist, so God placed him WHEN and WHERE He did in history to accomplish His plan. Acts 17:26 - 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
What does that even mean? John 6:70 is clear enough. So is the chosen nation of Israel.
You've just got to be kidding!!! Seriously???
This isn't about how the "chosen ones" think about it, or their desire. It's about God's plan, plain and simple.
It seems you are rather naive about all this.
But the real issue is that you know you don't have any verse that actually says that election is to salvation, or any verse that shows that God elects to salvation.
And the glaring example of Judas and the entire nation of Israel refute your attempt to link election to service to election to salvation.
Fire away. I've never avoided answering any question.
Typical error here. Revealed by your statement: "as having 7 effects on all of mankind". iow, you are taking Rom 3:10-18 as what "all of mankind" are guilty of".
Not so. Paul makes the statement in v.9 that "everyone is under sin". Then he follows that with 6 OT quotes that show the VARIOUS WAYS human beings sin. He WASN'T indicting all of mankind from all the 6 verses. He was showing the variety of ways men sin.
NO. The indictment came in v.9. And repeated in v.23. Again, v.10-18 are EXAMPLES of how mankind sins.
OK, let's examine the first quote Paul took from the OT; Psa 14:1-3
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.
So, what is the subject in this passage? The FOOL who says "there is no God". iow, the atheists. Do any of the atheists seek God? No. Did you notice the similarity between Psa 14:1-3 and Paul's first OT quote? That's where it came from.
So when Paul wrote "none who seek God", he was referring to the fool atheist. Not EVERYONE in humanity.
Since your premise was extremely OFF THE RAILS, these questions are irrelevant.
When you actually understand what Paul was doing, you will realize that he wasn't indicting the human race with ALL of the 6 quotes. The 6 were merely examples of how the human race sins.
Again, the indictment is found in v.9 and repeated in v.23.
Typical error here. Revealed by your statement: "as having 7 effects on all of mankind". iow, you are taking Rom 3:10-18 as what "all of mankind" are guilty of".
Not so. Paul makes the statement in v.9 that "everyone is under sin". Then he follows that with 6 OT quotes that show the VARIOUS WAYS human beings sin. He WASN'T indicting all of mankind from all the 6 verses. He was showing the variety of ways men sin.
NO. The indictment came in v.9. And repeated in v.23. Again, v.10-18 are EXAMPLES of how mankind sins.
OK, let's examine the first quote Paul took from the OT; Psa 14:1-3
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.
So, what is the subject in this passage? The FOOL who says "there is no God". iow, the atheists. Do any of the atheists seek God? No. Did you notice the similarity between Psa 14:1-3 and Paul's first OT quote? That's where it came from.
So when Paul wrote "none who seek God", he was referring to the fool atheist. Not EVERYONE in humanity.
Since your premise was extremely OFF THE RAILS, these questions are irrelevant.
When you actually understand what Paul was doing, you will realize that he wasn't indicting the human race with ALL of the 6 quotes. The 6 were merely examples of how the human race sins.
Again, the indictment is found in v.9 and repeated in v.23.
