Thoughts on Christian non-violence

[Blik]

Why do we only talk about either doing nothing while someone kills your family or killing the person who is coming to harm you. Can't there be another way? The Nazi were people just like us, broken and in need of Jesus, not in need of a bullet in their chest. Same with the Ukrainians and the Russians.

In the OT Gods were considered as part of a nation rather than God of an individual. God could declare a holy war against a nation, and it amounted to protecting the people who knew the one true God, it eliminated an idol.

Christ brought God to the individual, and told us that we were to fight as peacemakers, rather than by the sword. Romans 12:20-21 On the contrary, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[Runningman]

You are taking this verse out of context. Here is the whole context, Luke 22:35-38,
35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.
36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’[b]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
“That’s enough!” he replied.

Jesus had them buy a sword, (which in this case was only two so not enough for each man to defend himself). because he had to fulfill the prophecy about him and his followers being rebels and transgressors. When Jesus was arrested and his followers pulled out their swords and used them, they looked like rebels and transgressors and they fulfilled the prophecy, leading Jesus to say that those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

Jesus never said dying by a sword is a problem though. That’s just stating the obvious because people can die in risky endeavors like sword fighting. The correct interpretation of this is that Jesus wouldn’t command His followers to get a sword and then reverse His position and warn against having a sword. A sword is only used for offense in combat and self-defense; it has no other intended purpose for its creation. Jesus wanted them to have a sword for combat.

 

[njhmusicman18]

Jesus never said dying by a sword is a problem though. That’s just stating the obvious because people can die in risky endeavors like sword fighting. The correct interpretation of this is that Jesus wouldn’t command His followers to get a sword and then reverse His position and warn against having a sword. A sword is only used for offense in combat and self-defense; it has no other intended purpose for its creation. Jesus wanted them to have a sword for combat.

I already stated earlier that the only intended purpose of the swords was to fulfill the prophecy that Jesus and his followers were counted among the rebels and transgressors.

 

[njhmusicman18]

It is true that God's Word -- or the words of Christ -- are more powerful than any gun. The Bible says that "The LORD (YHWH) is a Man of War: the LORD is His name (Exodus 15:3). So when Christ descends to earth to destroy all His enemies He will use the "sword" which goes out of His mouth (Rev 19:15). Which means that God uses violence when necessary. In fact there will be a river of blood 200 miles long and about 5 feet deep (Rev 14:20)!

Getting back to the issue of the Christian and violence, there are three separate aspects which should be considered separately:

1. MURDER -- that is a sin and is totally unacceptable for Christians (or even non-Christians).

2. WARFARE -- Christians need not volunteer to kill others, but they can volunteer to provide medical attention or other non-violent assistance.

3. SELF-DEFENSE OR THE DEFENSE OF FAMILY -- there may come a time when the Christian has no choice except to use violence to defend himself or his family.

Christians are seen as soldiers by Christ (2 Tim 2:3,4) , and we are constantly at war with evil spirits. But the weapons of our warfare are not "carnal" (or physical) but spiritual. For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds -- Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; (2 Cor 10:3-5) We should note that they are "mighty through God" and are battles against everything that exalts itself against the knowledge of God -- vain philosophies, vain religions, and vain humanistic ideas.

First. when we look at the passages of Revelation, we can't always take them as literal but in the verses that you sighted, it seems like the Lord is coming to use the sword against those who have already been judged and have no chance at redemption. What I am talking about is that when we talk about self-defense, especially self-defense with a gun, we go into the problem of maybe killing the person while we are defending ourselves. That person who we have just killed, is an image bearer of God that is in need of Jesus. We, the self-defender, already know Jesus and therefore should not be afraid of death and should see this person as our neighbor and not our enemy. If we are truly called to love people like Christ loved people, then that means that we might have to sacrifice our life and if that means we die but the person who kills us will end up knowing Christ because of that, then what greater joy!

 

[Rhomphaeam]

You are taking this verse out of context. Here is the whole context, Luke 22:35-38,
35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.
36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’[b]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
“That’s enough!” he replied.

Jesus had them buy a sword, (which in this case was only two so not enough for each man to defend himself). because he had to fulfill the prophecy about him and his followers being rebels and transgressors. When Jesus was arrested and his followers pulled out their swords and used them, they looked like rebels and transgressors and they fulfilled the prophecy, leading Jesus to say that those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

Can I confirm that what you are saying about Luke 22:35-38 (which is a fulfilment of Isaiah 53:12) is the meaning of what is being fulfilled about Christ - that by having two swords at the supper table the disciples were the transgressors of Isaiah 53:12?

 

[njhmusicman18]

Can I confirm that what you are saying about Luke 22:35-35 (which is a fulfilment of Isaiah 53:12) is the meaning of what is being fulfilled about Christ - that by having two swords at the supper table the disciples were the transgressors of Isaiah 53:12?

Not at the supper table, but when Jesus was arrested in the garden.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Not at the supper table, but when Jesus was arrested in the garden.

The passage you cited was at the supper table (v14). The swords were at the supper table. Are you saying that the swords were not the transgression - rather the use of the sword by Peter in the garden? Is that the qualification to what you said first @#17 and then restated @#43?

 

[njhmusicman18]

The passage you cited was at the supper table (v14). The swords were at the supper table. Are you saying that the swords were not the transgression - rather the use of the sword by Peter in the garden? Is that the qualification to what you said first @#17 and then restated @#43?

What I am saying is that Jesus told them to get the swords for when they are with him in the garden. Right after he has them get the swords they go into the garden and then later, the chief priests and temple guard come and arrest them. If they did not have swords, they would not have looked like a rebellion so the swords help complete the picture and fulfill the prophecy.

 

[Live4Him2]

First. when we look at the passages of Revelation, we can't always take them as literal but in the verses that you sighted, it seems like the Lord is coming to use the sword against those who have already been judged and have no chance at redemption. What I am talking about is that when we talk about self-defense, especially self-defense with a gun, we go into the problem of maybe killing the person while we are defending ourselves. That person who we have just killed, is an image bearer of God that is in need of Jesus. We, the self-defender, already know Jesus and therefore should not be afraid of death and should see this person as our neighbor and not our enemy. If we are truly called to love people like Christ loved people, then that means that we might have to sacrifice our life and if that means we die but the person who kills us will end up knowing Christ because of that, then what greater joy!

Which is basically what happened with Saul of Tarsus.

Acts chapter 26

[9] I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
[10] Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
[11] And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
[12] Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
[13] At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
[14] And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
[15] And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
[16] But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
[17] Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
[18] To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

I Timothy chapter 1

[12] And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
[13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
[14] And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
[15] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
[16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

What I am saying is that Jesus told them to get the swords for when they are with him in the garden. Right after he has them get the swords they go into the garden and then later, the chief priests and temple guard come and arrest them. If they did not have swords, they would not have looked like a rebellion so the swords help complete the picture and fulfill the prophecy.

Hollywood I presume? Prophecy being fulfilled by means of a falsehood.

 

[Runningman]

I already stated earlier that the only intended purpose of the swords was to fulfill the prophecy that Jesus and his followers were counted among the rebels and transgressors.

Dis any of them use their sword to attack someone after Jesus commanded them to get swords?

 

[njhmusicman18]

Dis any of them use their sword to attack someone after Jesus commanded them to get swords?

Yes, Luke 22 says, 49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

Matthew 26 says, 47 While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.” 49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.
50 Jesus replied, “Do what you came for, friend.”
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

So as you can see, one of Jesus' disciples does use his sword to cut of the ear of a solider, (which one could say he was acting in self-defense), but Jesus rebukes him and heals the ear of the solider but tells the disciple that he could have called down many angels but this was needed to fulfill the scriptures.

 

[Live4Him2]

Luke chapter 9

[51] And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
[52] And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
[53] And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
[54] And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
[55] But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
[56] For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

So as you can see, one of Jesus' disciples does use his sword to cut of the ear of a solider, (which one could say he was acting in self-defense), but Jesus rebukes him and heals the ear of the solider but tells the disciple that he could have called down many angels but this was needed to fulfill the scriptures.

So in your teaching the this of your meaning is that Jesus needed to tell the disciples to arm themselves with swords so that He could take them into the garden on the Mount of Olives where one of them would strike off a guards ear and then be rebuked for acting in defence of the Lord - because this was necessary to fulfil Isaiah 53:12 ?

How many other Messianic prophecies do you believe were fulfilled in this way?

 

[Live4Him2]

So in your teaching the this of your meaning is that Jesus needed to tell the disciples to arm themselves with swords so that He could take them into the garden on the Mount of Olives where one of them would strike off a guards ear and then be rebuked for acting in defence of the Lord - because this was necessary to fulfil Isaiah 53:12 ?

How many other Messianic prophecies do you believe were fulfilled in this way?

Matthew chapter 21

[1] And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
[2] Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
[3] And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
[4] All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
[5] Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, Luke 22 says, 49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

Matthew 26 says, 47 While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.” 49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.
50 Jesus replied, “Do what you came for, friend.”
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

So as you can see, one of Jesus' disciples does use his sword to cut of the ear of a solider, (which one could say he was acting in self-defense), but Jesus rebukes him and heals the ear of the solider but tells the disciple that he could have called down many angels but this was needed to fulfill the scriptures.

I don't know if your interpretation is accurate, but it almost seems like it. I am not outright saying I disagree, but I see it a bit different. For one, Isaiah 53:12 says "He was numbered with the transgressors..." and if His disciples obeyed Jesus then they weren't transgressors nor were they charged with any crimes by civil authorities. The only transgressors Jesus was numbered with were the criminals He was crucified with.

I think the key to interpretting how Jesus was "numbered with the transgressors" lies in Isaiah 53:12.

"...and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors..."

The context of this is the crucifixion where He bore the sins of the world.

1 John 2:2
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Matthew chapter 21

[1] And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
[2] Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
[3] And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
[4] All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
[5] Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

You're a skilled deceiver. For your intention to carry any weight in a semblance of meaning equal to the falsehood spoken by the author of this OP - Jesus Himself would have had to have arranged the donkey as He arranged the swords. Prophetic authority is not a construction that can be uprooted by falsehood. If Christ Himself walked as a prophet in anyway as you and the other are promoting - then He was a false prophet. No better than those bags of wind that have filled your nation and made an utter ruin of truth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

...then that means that we might have to sacrifice our life...

That may be true for you personally but if your wife and children (or any other family members) are at risk, do you wish to sacrifice them to an evildoer?

 

[Live4Him2]

I don't know if your interpretation is accurate, but it almost seems like it. I am not outright saying I disagree, but I see it a bit different. For one, Isaiah 53:12 says "He was numbered with the transgressors..." and if His disciples obeyed Jesus then they weren't transgressors nor were they charged with any crimes by civil authorities. The only transgressors Jesus was numbered with were the criminals He was crucified with.

I think the key to interpretting how Jesus was "numbered with the transgressors" lies in Isaiah 53:12.

"...and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors..."

The context of this is the crucifixion where He bore the sins of the world.

1 John 2:2
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Actually, you're both correct.

In relation to your understanding, we read:

Mark chapter 15

[27] And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
[28] And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

This scripture was definitely fulfilled when Jesus was crucified with the two transgressors.

HOWEVER, why was Jesus crucified with them?

Well, because Jesus and his disciples were basically considered guilty of "resisting arrest" in the Garden of Gethsemane when Peter drew his sword, and therefore they were counted as "transgressors" themselves.

P.S.

Of course, there was more to Jesus' crucifixion than just that.

 

[Live4Him2]

You're a skilled deceiver. For your intention to carry any weight in a semblance of meaning equal to the falsehood spoken by the author of this OP - Jesus Himself would have had to have arranged the donkey as He arranged the swords. Prophetic authority is not a construction that can be uprooted by falsehood. If Christ Himself walked as a prophet in anyway as you and the other are promoting - then He was a false prophet. No better than those bags of wind that have filled your nation and made an utter ruin of truth.

Thanks for the back-handed compliment, Satan (through one of his mouthpieces).