Thoughts on Christian non-violence

[Mitaze1075]

Nothing in the Bible prohibits self defense. For a fact we see self defense often.

Many like to bring up “ turn the other cheek”’but if you trade that quote back you’ll see it’s about revenge and the Jewish legal system. Such as if someone attacked me and I lost an eye, I could have later on went and got them, or me and a group and we took one of his eyes and that was the crime for his punishment. Christ is saying don’t do that. Don’t seek revenge but give mercy and forgiveness.

But revenge is very different from self defense. If someone is stabbing me I don’t have to just stand there and alloW it to happen while praying. I can defend myself. Even lethally if needed. But as a Christian and a person who should try to motivated by love , and just in general someone who needs to keep emotions in check, I can’t just use any encounter as a right to cause suffering. So just because someone is showing me does not mean I need to shoot them. If something happens and i have to shoot them to stay safe, as a decent person once the threat is eliminated I will do my best to keep them alive. I’ll call 911, I’ll try to stop bleeding by holding pressure. Self defense is not hatred. Revenge is hatred.

 

[Demi777]

God himself has waged wars in the bible. And the way Jesus turned the tables in the Synagogue was quite violent as well.
God has never condemned self defence or military. He did not even condemn public punishment when he was nailed to the cross.
We should forgive when people hurt us. And we shouldnt spitefully just start beating people up. The vengeance is of the Lord.
But Military and self defence are a part of life.
Imho

 

[OneOfHis]

If someone is kidnapping your child, you don't pick up your phone and call the police and hope they sort it out as your child is being dragged away.


I've had to defend the helpless before, and I have had to also eat humble pie when it wasn't my place to pay someone back for how they wronged me or a loved one.

We should look to God and seek His will for any decision we make.

Physical force against another may never be required for someone in their walk, where as to another they may have to act on multiple occasions in order for them to do what was right in their situation.

 

[Live4Him2]

Why do we only talk about either doing nothing while someone kills your family or killing the person who is coming to harm you. Can't there be another way? The Nazi were people just like us, broken and in need of Jesus, not in need of a bullet in their chest. Same with the Ukrainians and the Russians.

Yes, there is another way.

Christians could lay their lives down for others, even as Jesus commanded us to, by preaching the gospel of salvation to them...even if it gets us killed.

Your heart is in the right place.

 

[Live4Him2]

I am all for you going to those places and sharing the gospel do you need some contacts to get you there?

Why do you mock the one who has the true heart of Christ?

 

[Live4Him2]

You are taking this verse out of context. Here is the whole context, Luke 22:35-38,
35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.
36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’[b]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
“That’s enough!” he replied.

Jesus had them buy a sword, (which in this case was only two so not enough for each man to defend himself). because he had to fulfill the prophecy about him and his followers being rebels and transgressors. When Jesus was arrested and his followers pulled out their swords and used them, they looked like rebels and transgressors and they fulfilled the prophecy, leading Jesus to say that those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

EXACTLY RIGHT!

You saved me the trouble of saying the same thing.

 

[Live4Him2]

Hi guys! I have been thinking about non-violence and whether Christians should ever be violent and here are my thoughts.

When you become a Christian, you are giving your entire life over to Christ. Your life is not your own anymore and you are now called to deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow Jesus. This means that you are now stepping into a spiritual war and this war is Jesus and his followers against the devil and his demons. 2 Corinthians 10:3-4 says, 3 “For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.” In Ephesians 6:12, Paul says, 12 “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” We can see in these passages of scripture that we are told that the battle we face when we follow Jesus is not with the image bears of Christ that live on the earth but against the demons and dark powers of this world that can inhabit said image bears. We also see that when we fight this battle, we do not fight it with the weapons of this world but with the spiritual weapons that are given to us by God like the armor mentioned in Ephesians 6.

In Hebrews 4:12 we read, 12 “For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints, and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” Now, back at the time when this was written, the sword was the most popular weapon that someone would use when fighting because it was versatile, but a double-edged sword was an incredibly special weapon because it had a blade on either side. Now if this were to be written in modern times, I do not believe that we would use swords as our analogy, but guns would fit that a little better. So, one could say that the word of God is more powerful than any gun and if that is the case then if we are talking about nonviolence then why would we never need to use a gun when we have the word of God.

Just some initial thoughts on the subject but would love to know what you guys think and would love to keep the conversation going.

Do you know what the saddest thing is here in America?

Normally, if not always, the largest voting bloc to support this nation's wars is that of so-called "Evangelical Christians".

Why do I say "so-called Evangelical Christians"?

Because I doubt that any of them would actually go and share the "evangel" or the gospel with the people of other nations, but they'll sit at home on their duffs and cheer as the news reports how the people of other nations have not only been killed, but also are headed to hell.

 

[Mitaze1075]

EXACTLY RIGHT!

You saved me the trouble of saying the same thing.

I see it as Jesus directing themselves to be able to defend their small group without coming off as a military movement.

 

[Live4Him2]

I see it as Jesus directing themselves to be able to defend their small group without coming off as a military movement.

Well, then you see it wrong:

Matthew chapter 26

[51] And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
[52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
[53] Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
[54] But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Jesus not only rebuked Peter for using his sword to harm another (and an enemy of Christ, at that), but he also informed Peter that there was plenty of spiritual assistance at his disposal (angels) if he but asked for the same.

Furthermore, Jesus went on to heal the ear of the man that Peter cut off with the sword:

Luke chapter 22

[50] And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
[51] And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

You know, that whole "love your enemies" (Matt. 5:44) thing that Jesus preached.

 

[Live4Him2]

If someone is kidnapping your child, you don't pick up your phone and call the police and hope they sort it out as your child is being dragged away.


I've had to defend the helpless before, and I have had to also eat humble pie when it wasn't my place to pay someone back for how they wronged me or a loved one.

We should look to God and seek His will for any decision we make.

Physical force against another may never be required for someone in their walk, where as to another they may have to act on multiple occasions in order for them to do what was right in their situation.

When it comes to something like the police, then we should consider the following:

Romans chapter 13

[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
[4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
[5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
[6] For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

God does set some in place as "revengers to execute wrath upon them that do evil", and "they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing".

That said, they ought not be "a terror to good works, but to the evil".

In today's world, sad to say, such is not always the case.

Instead, it's oftentimes the polar opposite of how it ought to be.

 

[Live4Him2]

God himself has waged wars in the bible.

Yes, he did, BUT those were situations where people's sins had basically come to the full in that they were doing things like sacrificing their own children to false "gods" in the fire.

Is it truly the same with today's wars?

I'm personally convinced that several of this nation's wars have been waged under false pretenses. You know, like that whole "Saddam Hussein is hiding weapons of mass destruction!" thing.

Anyhow, I personally worked with this nation's Veterans for 16 straight years at 40 different VA Hospitals, and many of them told me that they believed the same thing. Not only this, but many of them were bitter against their own government in that they lost a lot of their comrades and/or suffered great injuries (and not just physical injuries...almost every Vet that I met, if not all of them, suffered greatly from PTSD) themselves under what they later concluded to be false pretenses.

In fact, many of them had this motto:

"I love my country, but fear my government."

 

[Blain]

There is a difference between violence and say defending ones self or their loved ones. violence is the act to intentionally harm others with malicious intent while defending ones self or others is merely the act of protection defending and securing the safety of ones self or others, understanding the difference between the two can be a huge eye opener

 

[Aaron56]

When it comes to something like the police, then we should consider the following

This probably needs another thread altogether but Romans 13 is not about worldly powers, it is about those within the kingdom of God.

Our tradition of democracy within the church ( the form of government perhaps MOST unlike the Kingdom of God) affects our understanding of the passage. Were not people struck dead by lying to the Holy Spirit? Did not Paul have the choice to correct the Corinthians harshly or with gentleness? Our U.S. traditions make us subject to no man even though, throughout scriptures, the Spirit clearly puts some over the others.

As for violence: we are not to bruise a reed or snuff out a wick. Jesus' whip at the temple was for the animals. Only tables were turned over, not people.

 

[Live4Him2]

This probably needs another thread altogether but Romans 13 is not about worldly powers, it is about those within the kingdom of God.

Paul was definitely talking about worldly powers in Romans chapter 13, as was Peter here:

I Peter chapter 2

[13] Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
[14] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

 

[Aaron56]

So, story time.

I don't like killing animals at all much less just for sport. I eat what I kill with a few exceptions.

One exception was for a racoon that came after my wife. That was the last mistake he made.

Another was a bird that attacked the reflection of itself on our house windows. This went on for a year and even through the winter. It was getting to the point it was disrupting our sleep and rest. I tried to shoot it with no luck (and I'm a pretty good shot). So, I asked the Lord to "Deliver it into my hands".

My wife woke me early one morning to tell me "I think the bird is trapped in our sun porch". Sure enough it was him. I donned gloves and needless to say, he now sleeps with the fishes.

I had an opportunity to show it mercy but I could not since it was most disruptive to my wife. Had it caused me and me alone discomfort, I might have let it live. But since I am charged with the care and love for my wife, the bird had to go.

 

[Live4Him2]

So, story time.

I don't like killing animals at all much less just for sport. I eat what I kill with a few exceptions.

One exception was for a racoon that came after my wife. That was the last mistake he made.

Another was a bird that attacked the reflection of itself on our house windows. This went on for a year and even through the winter. It was getting to the point it was disrupting our sleep and rest. I tried to shoot it with no luck (and I'm a pretty good shot). So, I asked the Lord to "Deliver it into my hands".

My wife woke me early one morning to tell me "I think the bird is trapped in our sun porch". Sure enough it was him. I donned gloves and needless to say, he now sleeps with the fishes.

I had an opportunity to show it mercy but I could not since it was most disruptive to my wife. Had it caused me and me alone discomfort, I might have let it live. But since I am charged with the care and love for my wife, the bird had to go.

Well, I'll see your bird story, and I'll raise you one...

Right outside the entry door to my home is an outdoor light that is mounted to the house.

Last year, a bird built its nest on top of the light, and left three eggs in it.

I didn't even notice the nest initially...and then the day came that I was about to enter my home, only to have a bird fly directly at me, and literally crap on my shoulder.

This bird came at me day after day for weeks, and I literally left and entered my home with an open umbrella over my head every day during that timeframe to protect myself from the bird who was merely seeking to protect its young.

Sometimes, we just need to live and let live.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So, one could say that the word of God is more powerful than any gun and if that is the case then if we are talking about nonviolence then why would we never need to use a gun when we have the word of God.

It is true that God's Word -- or the words of Christ -- are more powerful than any gun. The Bible says that "The LORD (YHWH) is a Man of War: the LORD is His name (Exodus 15:3). So when Christ descends to earth to destroy all His enemies He will use the "sword" which goes out of His mouth (Rev 19:15). Which means that God uses violence when necessary. In fact there will be a river of blood 200 miles long and about 5 feet deep (Rev 14:20)!

Getting back to the issue of the Christian and violence, there are three separate aspects which should be considered separately:

1. MURDER -- that is a sin and is totally unacceptable for Christians (or even non-Christians).

2. WARFARE -- Christians need not volunteer to kill others, but they can volunteer to provide medical attention or other non-violent assistance.

3. SELF-DEFENSE OR THE DEFENSE OF FAMILY -- there may come a time when the Christian has no choice except to use violence to defend himself or his family.

Christians are seen as soldiers by Christ (2 Tim 2:3,4) , and we are constantly at war with evil spirits. But the weapons of our warfare are not "carnal" (or physical) but spiritual. For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds -- Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; (2 Cor 10:3-5) We should note that they are "mighty through God" and are battles against everything that exalts itself against the knowledge of God -- vain philosophies, vain religions, and vain humanistic ideas.

 

[Demi777]

Yes, he did, BUT those were situations where people's sins had basically come to the full in that they were doing things like sacrificing their own children to false "gods" in the fire.

Is it truly the same with today's wars?

I'm personally convinced that several of this nation's wars have been waged under false pretenses. You know, like that whole "Saddam Hussein is hiding weapons of mass destruction!" thing.

Anyhow, I personally worked with this nation's Veterans for 16 straight years at 40 different VA Hospitals, and many of them told me that they believed the same thing. Not only this, but many of them were bitter against their own government in that they lost a lot of their comrades and/or suffered great injuries (and not just physical injuries...almost every Vet that I met, if not all of them, suffered greatly from PTSD) themselves under what they later concluded to be false pretenses.

In fact, many of them had this motto:

"I love my country, but fear my government."

So you dont think nowadays governments dont worship idols? Its all the same. Rebellion against God. Today the idols may not always be of wood. But stone and self glorification.

 

[Diakonos]

when this was declared, ONE sword was brought out

“They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”” (Luke 22:38)

 

[Live4Him2]

So you dont think nowadays governments dont worship idols? Its all the same. Rebellion against God. Today the idols may not always be of wood. But stone and self glorification.

I agree with you on this point.

My intended point, I guess, was this:

In the Bible, we know that God truly initiated some wars, BUT that doesn't necessarily mean that today's wars are truly initiated by God.

In other words, it's not "rebellion against God" that we're often fighting against (it hardly ever is or never is), but rather jockeying for things such as this world's oil supplies.