Thoughts on Christian non-violence

[hornetguy]

So just for clarification, what do you mean by a dangerous world? What makes this world dangerous?

What world do you live in? Just for clarification, of course....

To play along, this is a fallen world. Satan runs rampant. In the first century, it was common to encounter thieves and bandits when traveling... much like today. If Jesus sent his disciples out "into the world" and they all were robbed, beaten, and killed, that would put a pretty severe damper on the spreading of the word..
He sent them out once with no purse, cloak, etc, and they made it back.
Why do you think he told them to take all those things now? Simply to set them up to be accused of being "rebels" ? Jesus is willing to use his disciples as "bait" simply to fulfill prophesy? Don't you think that is portraying Jesus as being a pretty deceitful person? I suppose you don't mind doing that, if it fits your eisegesic view.

 

[njhmusicman18]

What world do you live in? Just for clarification, of course....

To play along, this is a fallen world. Satan runs rampant. In the first century, it was common to encounter thieves and bandits when traveling... much like today. If Jesus sent his disciples out "into the world" and they all were robbed, beaten, and killed, that would put a pretty severe damper on the spreading of the word..
He sent them out once with no purse, cloak, etc, and they made it back.
Why do you think he told them to take all those things now? Simply to set them up to be accused of being "rebels" ? Jesus is willing to use his disciples as "bait" simply to fulfill prophesy? Don't you think that is portraying Jesus as being a pretty deceitful person? I suppose you don't mind doing that, if it fits your eisegesic view.

OK, so let me get this straight, you believe that Jesus waited until the very end of his earthly ministry to tell his disciples to arm themselves not fully but just two people in a group of 11 or 12. And you also believe that it was so important that he only mentions it once? Also, you believe that without these weapons the disciples would just get beaten and robbed and killed by other people and that God would not protect them for doing His work?

 

[Avery]

So just for clarification, what do you mean by a dangerous world? What makes this world dangerous?

I would say you are off to a good start.

 

[njhmusicman18]

I would say you are off to a good start.

The reason that I asked that question was because I wanted to know which people made this world dangerous. I believe that everyone is made in God's image and loved by him but because of sin and brokenness, we all fall short of God's glory. We had no chance of redemption until Jesus came down, lived a perfect life, and took our place on the cross to be the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. He then rose again to give us eternal life and a way out of our brokenness and sin by taking his righteousness. If it wasn't for someone telling us about Jesus or maybe even having a radical revelation from Jesus himself, we would still be deep in our sin and brokenness. Every person is worthy to hear the good news of Christ but sometimes, I believe that we have to lay down our lives for the Gospel. Paul says, To live is Christ and to die is gain. Tertullian, one of the early church fathers, said, "the blood of the martyr is the seed of the church". Jim Elliot, the missionary said, "He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose." Why do we not see any of the believers in Christ in the book of acts, pull out their swords in self defense when be arrested or persecuted? Why wasn't Paul (Saul) killed in self defense by the Christians he was trying to kill and persecute. I believe it was because they saw the Gospel of Jesus worth dying for. I believe they believed that if Jesus died for me, then I would be willing to die for him.

 

[CS1]

The reason that I asked that question was because I wanted to know which people made this world dangerous. I believe that everyone is made in God's image and loved by him but because of sin and brokenness, we all fall short of God's glory. We had no chance of redemption until Jesus came down, lived a perfect life, and took our place on the cross to be the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. He then rose again to give us eternal life and a way out of our brokenness and sin by taking his righteousness. If it wasn't for someone telling us about Jesus or maybe even having a radical revelation from Jesus himself, we would still be deep in our sin and brokenness. Every person is worthy to hear the good news of Christ, but sometimes, I believe that we have to lay down our lives for the Gospel. Paul says, To live is Christ and to die is gain. Tertullian, one of the early church fathers, said, "the blood of the martyr is the seed of the church." Jim Elliot, the missionary said, "He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose." Why do we not see any of the believers in Christ in the book of acts, pull out their swords in self defense when be arrested or persecuted? Why wasn't Paul (Saul) killed in self defense by the Christians he was trying to kill and persecute. I believe it was because they saw the Gospel of Jesus worth dying for. I believe they believed that if Jesus died for me, then I would be willing to die for him.

laying down the lives of the Gospel happens before they kill you. WE are supposed to Stand in evil days and times. Stand against sin and proclaim the gospel message of the Lord Jesus Christ. We stand for family and marriage. We are to stand against the killing of babies. Standing for the Lord when they ask you to deny Jesus or die is the final standing YET many will not stand of Jesus today because it is unpopular. If you can't stand for Jesus when it is unpopular, how can you stand when they make it illegal?

WE say we are to deny ourselves, yet We reject Jesus to pervert the love of God at the expense of His Holiness. False narratives like "gay Christians" and transgenderism, drunkness and recreational DRUGS, USAGE. Saying God loves me as I am but will not change and put down the sin God hates.

WE say self-defense is wrong and make Jesus a Pastific which HE was not. We are not supposed to love our lives unto death.

Yet we are silent about sin due to discomfort and mocking and scoffing and ridicule. WE deny the Lord in so many ways it would not make one difference if you decided to fight or not.

 

[hornetguy]

OK, so let me get this straight, you believe that Jesus waited until the very end of his earthly ministry to tell his disciples to arm themselves not fully but just two people in a group of 11 or 12. And you also believe that it was so important that he only mentions it once? Also, you believe that without these weapons the disciples would just get beaten and robbed and killed by other people and that God would not protect them for doing His work?

You act as if this is something I've studied and prayed over. I don't see it as consequential. He said this to the 12, who were about to go out into the world. They only had two swords, and he said that should be enough. Do I want to parse this down to the jot and tittle to see what I can make of it? No. I take it at face value, and do not see the value in playing semantic games.

I do not believe Jesus expected us to go out and become "cannon fodder" for the world. I believe he taught us principles.... don't be violent people, don't be evil people, don't hate your brothers.... principles.

We were also told that whoever does not provide for his own, and especially for his own family is worse than an unbeliever.... do you think that meant only food, since that was the topic of conversation.... or do you think it was a principle he was teaching us ?
What all does "provide for" encompass? Food? Housing? Health insurance? Transportation? Protection against evil people?

Are you telling me that if someone evil came into your house and said they were going to rape and kill your wife and daughters, you would simply sit back and let them do it? Tell them you will pray for them?

 

[Avery]

The reason that I asked that question was because I wanted to know which people made this world dangerous. I believe that everyone is made in God's image and loved by him but because of sin and brokenness, we all fall short of God's glory. We had no chance of redemption until Jesus came down, lived a perfect life, and took our place on the cross to be the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. He then rose again to give us eternal life and a way out of our brokenness and sin by taking his righteousness. If it wasn't for someone telling us about Jesus or maybe even having a radical revelation from Jesus himself, we would still be deep in our sin and brokenness. Every person is worthy to hear the good news of Christ but sometimes, I believe that we have to lay down our lives for the Gospel. Paul says, To live is Christ and to die is gain. Tertullian, one of the early church fathers, said, "the blood of the martyr is the seed of the church". Jim Elliot, the missionary said, "He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose." Why do we not see any of the believers in Christ in the book of acts, pull out their swords in self defense when be arrested or persecuted? Why wasn't Paul (Saul) killed in self defense by the Christians he was trying to kill and persecute. I believe it was because they saw the Gospel of Jesus worth dying for. I believe they believed that if Jesus died for me, then I would be willing to die for him.

Have you read Revelation?

 

[njhmusicman18]

Have you read Revelation?

Humor me

 

[Avery]

Humor me

Don't mess with me. Have you or not read Revelation? Actually I am wondering how old you are. Care to answer that?

The NT is actually about living for Christ; not dying for Him. I don't think you have given much thought to actually dying and dying in agony as some have.

 

[njhmusicman18]

Don't mess with me. Have you or not read Revelation? Actually I am wondering how old you are. Care to answer that?

The NT is actually about living for Christ; not dying for Him. I don't think you have given much thought to actually dying and dying in agony as some have.

I have, but I don’t remember it talking about what you are talking about. Also, I have given some thought about dying for Christ but I think you’re missing my point. I don’t believe that we should put ourselves into a position where we openly die for Christ without doing anything to defends ourselves. I’m just saying that I believe that we can defend ourselves without putting the person trying to hurt us in harms way

 

[Avery]

I have, but I don’t remember it talking about what you are talking about. Also, I have given some thought about dying for Christ but I think you’re missing my point. I don’t believe that we should put ourselves into a position where we openly die for Christ without doing anything to defends ourselves. I’m just saying that I believe that we can defend ourselves without putting the person trying to hurt us in harms way

Oh you would remember it all right. It's about anything but passivity.

How would you defend yourself without hurting another? Examples?

 

[JaumeJ]

“They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”” (Luke 22:38)

Thank you for the correction on my post. I think I was thinking of the two-edged sword mentioned in Revelation. God bless you and keep me in the loop.

 

[njhmusicman18]

Oh you would remember it all right. It's about anything but passivity.

How would you defend yourself without hurting another? Examples?

Well, let us look at Daniel. We see in Daniel 6, that Daniel was a man of God who prayed to God three times a day. Some of the Admin and Satraps wanted to get at Daniel and so they made King Darius make a decree to make prayer illegal unless it was to King Darius and anyone who broke it would be sent to the lions den. Daniel, being a man of God, did not follow this decree and continued to pray to God. This got him in trouble and he was sent into the Lions den. Before he was thrown in, King Darius said, “May your God, whom you serve continually, rescue you!” We learn later that God had sent an angel to shut the mouths of the lions and Daniel was saved. I believe that we can assume that when Daniel was thrown into the lions den, the first thing he did, was pray. Pray to Daniel was a lifeline, it was all he knew how to live and connect with God. Now, we also see in the books of Acts, that when Paul and Silas were in jail, they sang hymns and praises to God and the Lord sent and earthquake to release them from jail and that allowed them to minster to the jailer and his whole family. We also see in 2 Chronicles 20, that and three armies came near the people of Israel. The King called everyone together to call on the Lord for help. A prophet, who speaks for the Lord, tells the king and the people that the Lord has heard their cry and will save them. He says the the battle is the Lord's and that they will not have to fight. The king has so much faith, that he calls upon the musicians, dancers, and singers to as the front lines and when they get to the clearing to see the other armies, the Lord had turned the armies against each other and they all were dead.

What I find interesting, is that to my knowledge, there is no events of self defense by Christians in the book of Acts, which is supposed to be the history book of the believers right after Jesus left the earth. If carrying swords and protecting ones life was so important, why, from what we can tell, did Peter, Paul, James, Stephen, and the other believers not defend themselves when being attacked or arrested? Why do we not hear of Christians trying to fight back against the persecution of Saul when he was persecuting Christians? Would they even need weapons when, through Jesus, they had the power to raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and the lame?

 

[soberxp]

You may not realize that the general environment of the United States has created the so-called self-defense problem. The military force advocated by the United States affects individuals to some extent. Countries and individuals advocate violence or force to solve problems. This is the problem.

Established under the rule of Satan. eye for eye, tooth for tooth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I’m just saying that I believe that we can defend ourselves without putting the person trying to hurt us in harms way

That sounds like fantasy. So here are some truths to consider:

1. Christians are exhorted to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

2. To be wise means to think carefully about how a person should AVOID situations which put him or her (or their loved ones) at risk. Situational awareness and security consciousness are responsible behaviors.

3. There are way and means to defend oneself without a lethal outcome. There are systems of self-defense which will simply disable an attacker.

4. The person who is "trying to hurt us" has already put himself in harm's way by his criminality. Therefore if he suffers for his actions, he has brought it upon himself. According to NT Scripture, criminals must pay for their crimes.

5. It is one thing to be persecuted for and/or die for the Gospel or for Christian witness, and it is quite another thing to allow home invaders to do their worst.

6. Almost all American cities have now become lawless, which means that law-abiding citizens must take full precautions to avoid become victims of criminals who are being allowed to roam free.

7. Since there is absolutely no accountability for high crimes and treason, petty criminals have concluded that it is open season on law-abiding citizens. Seventeen gangs have targeted the wealthiest citizens of L..A. , while "smash-and-grab" is considered to be perfectly acceptable when high-end stores are targeted.

“There’s no chance or opportunity for these victims even to comply. They’re just running up to people and attacking them, whether that’s putting a gun in their face or punching them and beating on them,” Tippet said. “Pistol whipping them as well.” -- Comments by police Captain Tippet

 

[soberxp]

@JAPOV
If the United States spends so much $ on military spending to solve its own domestic economic problems, things may change.
This is the way to solve the problem from the viewpoint of Marxist atheist materialism. It has nothing to do with the Bible. If there are similarities, it is pure coincidence

 

[JAPOV]

@JAPOV
If the United States spends so much $ on military spending to solve its own domestic economic problems, things may change.
This is the way to solve the problem from the viewpoint of Marxist atheist materialism. It has nothing to do with the Bible. If there are similarities, it is pure coincidence

When your enemy, one who denies God, and one who will kill you BECAUSE OF YOUR FAITH, is intent upon taking your life.... you don't offer him your throat!

The perfect Kingdom of God we Christians all look forward to according to His promise is nigh at hand and we are promised persecution until then. So, I highly recommend you DEFEND YOURSELF!

We true believers are the restraining Spirit that keeps the antichrist from coming to power. So, the real question is, why should we lay down our arms?

I realize how easy it is to become emotionally invested in "why can't we all just get along?" But the answer is simple, that's not reality. There are always enemies and the lawless. We are promised persecution and the state of the world is only going to get worse. Skip to the back of the Bible and see how it ends. Politically speaking, I agree with you lol. So, why can't you see the logic in self defense? You can't even define self defense as violence, it's mostly God given survival instinct. Seriously, most of this thread doesn't make a bit of sense to me...

 

[soberxp]

When your enemy, one who denies God, and one who will kill you BECAUSE OF YOUR FAITH, is intent upon taking your life.... you don't offer him your throat!

The perfect Kingdom of God we Christians all look forward to according to His promise is nigh at hand and we are promised persecution until then. So, I highly recommend you DEFEND YOURSELF!

We true believers are the restraining Spirit that keeps the antichrist from coming to power. So, the real question is, why should we lay down our arms?

I realize how easy it is to become emotionally invested in "why can't we all just get along?" But the answer is simple, that's not reality. There are always enemies and the lawless. We are promised persecution and the state of the world is only going to get worse. Skip to the back of the Bible and see how it ends. Politically speaking, I agree with you lol. So, why can't you see the logic in self defense? You can't even define self defense as violence, it's mostly God given survival instinct. Seriously, most of this thread doesn't make a bit of sense to me...

The United States is like the largest gang in the world. If it steals other people's resources and money every day, what will happen to its own people?The people will Learn from him!

Those words of justice What all you heard,
But the Bible says that Satan came into the world dressed like an angel.

This is the reality. Get rid of those disguises.

If the world goes on like this, it can only be the end of what the Bible says.

My words may hurt your patriotism, but that's what a foreigner sees outside U.S.A.

The U.S.A as the leader of the world, if so on, how can the world get better.

(Bin Laden attacked the United States mainly because of oil, not because of faith.That's what I got.)

 

[JAPOV]

The United States is like the largest gang in the world. If it steals other people's resources and money every day, what will happen to its own people?The people will Learn from him!

Those words of justice What all you heard,
But the Bible says that Satan came into the world dressed like an angel.

This is the reality. Get rid of those disguises.

If the world goes on like this, it can only be the end of what the Bible says.

My words may hurt your patriotism, but that's what a foreigner sees outside U.S.A.

The U.S.A as the leader of the world, if so on, how can the world get better.

(Bin Laden attacked the United States mainly because of oil, not because of faith.That's what I got.)

Ahhhh... "The Great Satan"... Now we're making progress...
Self defense has nothing to do with patriotism, only the survivors are patriotic and proud. Money is the root of all evil and the great whore of Babylon has seduced the entire world. So, if you resent how a blessed Christian nation has influenced the world... all I can say is you will certainly miss it when it's gone...

 

[glen55]

The challenge of possible beliefs has challenged impossible questions your ability to prove it. Every thing needs doubt to challenge flesh and blood. Can it prove impossible abilities being overcome by a higher knowledge of experience of Spirit being masters of possibilities by the strength of faith challenged by unbelief.