Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

[Roughsoul1991]

Keep following the words of our LORD and you will be on the path of Truth.

But do not add or take away from Scripture for that only produces confusion - which we must to avoid as it does not come from God.
God is not the author of confusion.

1 Thess 4:13-18 & Revelation 1:7
A.) Christ leaves Heaven and descends to where we are.
B.) He remains in the clouds above our heads where "every eye shall see Him"
C.) He sounds the Trumpet call - the Last Trump - and the Dead in Christ are Resurrected
D.) After that the remaining Saints who are alive at His Coming are raptured up to meet the resurrected Saints in the clouds
E.) more to events to take place according to the Word

God is not the author of confusion.

We are. Humans are.

As to why we are forced to debate.

This is one interpretation out of many in eschatology as seen on this thread. And I respect your view. We all will know soon enough and better yet once we see Jesus, we will not care who was right or wrong. Amen.

 

[Jocund]

If you use the Holy Spirit you can do it yourself, there is no need in me wasting my time when no matter what evidence I supply you could care less because you think you already know, when you don't. But all those who mislead people today will have to answer after they get to heaven. There will be people in hell, who could have been saved but tarried too long actually believing they had to go through the tribulation no matter what choice they made, which is a of course just a master untruth from Satan.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." - 1 Thes 5:21 KJV

 

[DavidTree]

God is not the author of confusion.

We are. Humans are.

As to why we are forced to debate.

This is one interpretation out of many in eschatology as seen on this thread. And I respect your view. We all will know soon enough and better yet once we see Jesus, we will not care who was right or wrong. Amen.

This is true - amen

We are not forced to debate but we are called to accountability in how we handle the Word of Truth and there is a serious judgment for those who scramble scripture like eggs for their own benefit - Rev 22:18

This is why it is crucially important to embrace challenge IF you or anyone is going to teach from scripture and formulate a doctrine.
Seeking the Truth, according to the Scripture is Paramount and to be done in love, which is also Paramount.

Therefore, it has always been a part of our walk with Christ to be inquisitive unto understanding of "it is written."

Consider the outcome of following after religion/men/respect of persons:

Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

This is true - amen

We are not forced to debate but we are called to accountability in how we handle the Word of Truth and there is a serious judgment for those who scramble scripture like eggs for their own benefit - Rev 22:18

This is why it is crucially important to embrace challenge IF you or anyone is going to teach from scripture and formulate a doctrine.
Seeking the Truth, according to the Scripture is Paramount and to be done in love, which is also Paramount.

Therefore, it has always been a part of our walk with Christ to be inquisitive unto understanding of "it is written."

Consider the outcome of following after religion/men/respect of persons:

Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Keep in mind this message could be for anyone who disagrees.

You are saying I perverse and draw people away. You are saying you are right I am wrong.

What if I am right? Or what of we both have truth and error?

 

[DavidTree]

Keep in mind this message could be for anyone who disagrees.

You are saying I perverse and draw people away. You are saying you are right I am wrong.

What if I am right? Or what of we both have truth and error?

Bearing false witness is sin = "You are saying I perverse and draw people away. You are saying you are right I am wrong."

TRUTH = i am saying Gods' Word does not contradict ITSELF and is in Harmony from Genesis to Revelation.

Post #383 applies to everyone. Why does it offend you? There is no part in Post #383 where I said: "You are perverse and drawing people away and I am right."

Please review the opening sentence in Post #383 where I am in full agreement with your Post #381 which is verified on your Post.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

!!!WARNING!!!

UNIFYING WORDS AHEAD

I repeat if you want to be divided do not read.

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1 Corinthians 3:11-15
English Standard Version
11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

If your foundation is Christ Jesus and hold to the core beliefs of salvation then you are my brother and sister in Christ no matter if you think you are right and I am wrong. I love your spirit for truth and courage to debate it.

12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—

We all strive for gold but Paul even admits there is grace when teachers honestly with best human effort to promote sound doctrine. It may even end up being as secure as hay or straw which sounds like those described in the church of Corinth at the time of Paul's first letter.

13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.

Everyone's teachings will be tested on the day of judgment. The day will reveal we're we founded in Christ or not. Either Christ was the foundation with teaching spectrum of gold to hay or He wasn't.

14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.

If in Christ our judgment will on how many rewards we get based on the gold to hay spectrum.

If not founded in Christ then Christ will simply say He never knew them.

15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Even the one who unfortunately was poor at teaching but yet still had Christ as the foundation, they will be saved.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Bearing false witness is sin = "You are saying I perverse and draw people away. You are saying you are right I am wrong."

TRUTH = i am saying Gods' Word does not contradict ITSELF and is in Harmony from Genesis to Revelation.

Post #383 applies to everyone. Why does it offend you? There is no part in Post #383 where I said: "You are perverse and drawing people away and I am right."

Please review the opening sentence in Post #383 where I am in full agreement with your Post #381 which is verified on your Post.

I must of misunderstood your post then.

I agree in harmony but harmony also means one's interpretation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And I believe the Bible, too, but it abbreviates a lot of things, generalizes, summarizes, in really vague ways. For example, when we divide the word it requires cross referencing maybe a dozen verses just to build a doctrine because it isn’t plainly stated in a singular place what you want to try to prove.

I have shared "plainly stated verses (in a singular place)" that say the resurrection of the saved and of the unsaved is singular. One for each. Acts 24:15, Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, 1 Cor 15:23.

I have shared "plainly stated verses (in a singular place)" that say the gathering is at the Second Advent. 2 Thess 2:1, 1 Cor 15:23, Rev 20:5.

The more imprecise something is the more convoluted it becomes. Nothing you have said in post 274 directly undermines what I just said.

I believe so. All the verses I have shared are very clear in what they state. There is nothing "imprecise" about any of them.

Your point about all resurrections being referred to in the singular isn’t really what is happening. Yes the first resurrection before the MK is a singular resurrection, but so is the resurrection after it.

That is because there is ONE for the saved (at the MK) and ONE for the unsaved (at the GWT).

This is just so the syntax and semantics are clear to the reader.

A perfect example of this is John 5:29:

John 5:29
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This verse sounds like there is a singular resurrection of the good and damned, but actually this isn’t a singular resurrection, there are two different resurrections spread out over a span of over 1,000 years.

Rev 20 proves that there are 2, in v.5. The FIRST resurrection (which is of the saved) includes the martyrs, and the next one is of the unsaved, for the GWT judgment.

The first resurrection has two groups, each group experiencing a singular resurrection, separated by a period of 1,000 years per Revelation 20:5.

This is where we are not in agreement. Since the Bible very clearly states there will be a resurrection of the unsaved, where do you place that resurrection then?

I hope that makes more sense.

Maybe. But after you answer my question about when the resurrerction of the unsaved is answered.

 

[oyster67]

I’m a pre-tribber

Me too.

arguments for a post tribulational rapture don’t hold water

You are correct.

Revelation 19 shows us that we, the Church, will be in Heaven attending the Marriage Feast before Jesus returns to Earth at His Second Coming.

Revelation
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The Rapture Event itself is described in vivid detail in 1 Thessalonians 4...

1 Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

You have confused the Second Coming of Christ with the Resurrection/Rapture. These are two very distinct and different events separated by at least 7 years.

No, they aren't.

 

[Live4Him2]

Me too.



You are correct.

Revelation 19 shows us that we, the Church, will be in Heaven attending the Marriage Feast before Jesus returns to Earth at His Second Coming.

Revelation
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Hi. Oyster.

Please reread the portion of scripture that you just cited.

It does NOT say "that we, the Church, will be in Heaven attending the Marriage Feast before Jesus returns to Earth at His Second Coming".

Instead, it merely says that "the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

Immediately thereafter, we see Jesus and the saints descending from heaven.

Let me ask you a question which others here have refused to even acknowledge, let alone attempt to answer...

What of the tribulation saints?

Don't they get to partake of the marriage supper of the Lamb, or do they just get leftovers?

Here's another question for you...

How is Jesus allegedly going to be partaking of a 7-year supper in heaven while still seated at the right hand of the Father until his enemies are made his footstool?

Will folding tables or the like be brought in near his throne?

Will he abandon his throne altogether while tribulation saints are crying out to God, but cannot be heard because their intercessor/mediator is no longer seated at the Father's right hand?

I could ask so many more questions along these same lines (and I have here already, but no one has even attempted to answer them), but please answer these questions for me if you would be so kind.

Thank you.

The Rapture Event itself is described in vivid detail in 1 Thessalonians 4...

1 Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yes, it is, and both the Lord and the dead in Christ are COMING or DESCENDING from the third heaven as the saints which are yet alive and remain are caught up or raptured to meet them in the clouds, WHICH ARE IN THE FIRST HEAVEN OR THIS EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE, or in the air, WHICH IS THIS EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE, IN THEIR DESCENT.

Where's the imaginary U-turn back to the third heaven?

Of course, the correct answer is that it isn't there.

 

[Live4Him2]

Correct, "rapture" doesn't mean a glorified trip to heaven. Not even the 2W were given glorified bodies and taken to heaven. They were taken to heaven, but even they are awaiting their glorified bodies, which will occur "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says:

But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Red words: Second Advent

Blue words: EVERY believer from Adam forward

This verse summarizes the singular resurrection of the saved. All saved will be given glorified bodies at the same event; "when He comes".

Jesus doesn't come back until after the 2W are taken to heaven. They will taken to heaven the SAME WAY they were taken the first time they went to heaven.

Exactly.

There is but one coming gathering of both the saints in heaven and the saints on earth:

Ephesians chapter 1

[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
[10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

With such in mind, when do the tribulation saints who allegedly missed the rapture get their glorified bodies?

It's absolute nonsense what pre-tribbers believe.

Anyhow, as I said here once before, it's refreshing to read a post from someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

 

[oyster67]

Where's the imaginary U-turn back to the third heaven?

Nothing 'imaginary' about the Written Word of God...

1 Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is clear. You may read it as many times as you like, and it will still be crystal clear.

God bless you, brother.

 

[Live4Him2]

Nothing 'imaginary' about the Written Word of God...

1 Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is clear. You may read it as many times as you like, and it will still be crystal clear.

God bless you, brother.

It is clear.

Jesus and the dead in Christ are COMING and DESCENDING from the third heaven.

The saints who are yet alive are caught up or raptured to meet them in the clouds (our atmosphere) and in the air (our atmoshphere) IN THEIR DESCENT FROM THE THIRD HEAVEN.

No matter how you slice it, there's no mention of a U-turn back to the third heaven.

If there is, then show it to me/us.

You cannot, nor can anybody else who's ever walked the face of the earth, because it simply is not there.

What about my questions concerning the marriage supper of the Lamb?

 

[oyster67]

when do the tribulation saints who allegedly missed the rapture get their glorified bodies?

Whenever God wants to give them their glorified bodies. If they get their heads chopped off, then they will be in Heaven right alongside the rest of us. There is nothing difficult or problematic here. This is not a complicated issue at all.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Crisp and clean and no caffeine, my friend.

 

[Live4Him2]

Whenever God wants to give them their glorified bodies. If they get their heads chopped off, then they will be in Heaven right alongside the rest of us. There is nothing difficult or problematic here. This is not a complicated issue at all.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Crisp and clean and no caffeine, my friend.

Let's try what you quoted with its surrounding verses for context:

Revelation chapter 20

[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This "first resurrection" clearly coincides with the ushering in of Christ's Millennial Reign RIGHT HERE ON EARTH.

Seeing how this is the actual timeframe of "the first resurrection", how was there allegedly another "resurrection" 7 years earlier?

The correct answer is that there wasn't.

This, my friend, is crystal clear.

 

[oyster67]

What about my questions concerning the marriage supper of the Lamb?

You will find your answers in Revelation 19, which I have already printed out and explained to you. I must go and eat my supper now.

See u tomorrow.

 

[Live4Him2]

I must go and eat my supper now.

See u tomorrow.

Well, that's better than what Jesus will allegedly say to the tribulation saints:

"I must go and eat my supper now. See you in 7 years."

Anyhow, enjoy your food, and have a blessed night.

 

[oyster67]

This is the first resurrection.

That phrase refers to the next verse, which you failed to print...

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[oyster67]

NOW i will feast.