Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?
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In Rev 5, there is a passage that indicates men are in heaven at that point:
"And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon." - Rev 5:3
At the fifth seal, we see that there are still people on earth that will die in the name of God. And that a number of people that came to heaven did so by dying first. Time is given for this to happen intentionally:
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." - Rev 6:9-11 KJV
Rev 7:3 still has servants of God on earth.
"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." - Rev 7:3 KJV
Of a countless multitude, 144k of the seals are attributed to children of Israel (which are presumably Christian).
"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. [...] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;[...] These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." - Rev 7:4,9&14b KJV
In Rev 9 we see a torment given only to men without the seal of God. If only wicked people were on earth at this point, why would the phrasing take the time to specify about the seal of God?
"And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." - Rev 9:4 KJV
In Rev 10, we see a reference to the days of the voice of the seventh angel (which is surely in the last days but presumably before the day of the Lord).
"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." - Rev 10:7 KJV
Rev 11 deals with the two witnesses that die, are resurrected, and then ascend up to heaven.
Rev 12 is the war in heaven, the devil's wrath, and the woman whose remnant seed are Christians on earth. There is a specific "woe" to those on the earth and of the seal, showing that there are Christians (of the seal) on earth at that point.
"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." - Rev 12:12 KJV
In Rev 13 the saints (presumably on earth) are overcome and only those without their name in the book of life remain (all the saints on earth are dead).
"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." - Rev 13:7-8 KJV
More from Rev 13, the beast gives all the mark. Is it "all kinds of people" or "or all inhabiters of the earth"? Many translations agree with "all inhabiters" context.
"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:" - Rev 13:16 KJV
Rev 14 brings in the imagery of the Lamb on mount Sion and the grapes of wrath being harvested.
The next few chapters are the wrath of God where no saints are present on earth.
In all of this, the only ones that can be "of God" are Christians per 1 John 4
"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." - 1 John 4:2-4 KJV
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." - John 6:27 KJV
And it is a necessary event for believers to die per Hebrews 9:27, therefore any reference to being alive during the resurrection unto change would necessarily be a reference to someone alive following from a mortal resurrection. "Alive" or "awake" could be understood in the same way by that.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." - Hebrews 9:27-28 KJV
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." - 1 Thes 4:16-17 KJV
"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." - 1 Cor 15:50-52 KJV
To summarize:
Everyone is appointed to die. A pre-trib rapture to avoid death makes no sense. There are Christians mentioned after Rev 4, many times. There are references for Christians to intentionally be submitted to conditions that lead to their death (and through that come to heaven). There are verses that seem to indicate that there are points where no saints are alive on earth. And the only reference to a skyward removal in Rev is of the two saints after they are killed and raised. Christians can be the only possible people that can be of God per 1 John 4 and John 6. And it appears that all living saints are killed in Rev 13 and everyone on the earth remaining gets the mark of the beast. Wrath of God is unleashed onto these people and then Christ returns. The first resurrection happens. All of those saved will be changed.
The question to you:
If you still believe in a pre-trib position, what part of the interpretation I presented do you disagree with?
Pre-trib is usually tied in with Dispensationaism, and so I suspect the first approach would be to try to reassign "saints", "martyrs", etc. to nonChristian individuals that would fit in with the Talmudic Jewish interpretation that Dispensationalism hybrids itself with. If that is so, how do you address 1 John 4:2-4?
By what grounds do you interpret that saints, martyrs, and those with the seal of God as being necessarily nonChristian? And if they aren't necessarily nonChristian, it would also not necessarily be the case that "all Christians experience a pre-trib rapture". And if it is the case that those saints and martyrs are necessarily Christian, it would follow that a pre-trib rapture of all Christians is necessarily untrue.
So in the end, this all boils down to the concept of whether someone that rejects Christ could be a saint.
If my understanding of Col 1 is correct, we see that all saints know the truth of Christ, therefore the saints mentioned in Revelation are not possibly nonChristian. It is therefore necessarily the case that pre-trib rapture is untrue.
"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Chri st in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily." - Colossians 1:26-29 KJV
How do you address that?
Not according to the bible. There are no mountains ever mentioned in heaven in the bible nor does a mountain descend with New Jerusalem.
Some believe that's all Christians throughout history - at least MacArthor taught that; others say that's only the tribulation saints who succumbed to their fate at the end times since they are specifically identified as "the ones who come out of the great tribulation". I'm inclined to the former one, because the Church is the Body of Christ.
You see, when Paul was being converted on Damasus road, Jesus didn't convict him of persecuting His people. Jesus convicted Paul of persecuting HIM. In King Nebuchadnezzard's dream, the Babylonian statue started from him which was the golden head all the way down to the ten toes; the Body of Christ grows in the same way from Christ the head of the Church down to the ten toes. When His Body is completed, he will return to possess it.
Grace is
Romans 5:8-9
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Ephesians 2:8
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
Ephesians 4:29
29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
Corrupting talk meaning rotten, useless, corrupt, depraved. It must build up and spoken in love.
I'm not implying your words are corrupt only that some are ungraceful. I'm not even implying your character is corrupt.
I'm simply saying the way you have communicated is not graceful. And this thread testifies to my post.
I honestly do not understand why people divide over issues that are not core soul salvation issues. They fight and even split churches. Makes no sense. Future events are exactly that, meaning just like so many prophecies they are revealed more and more as time goes by. The reality is, we all will probably be humbled to know we do not have all the answers to future events.
I only have God to answer to so it isn't you who will be my judge. I simply in a very methodical way with lots of thought say what I'm guided to say.
But I see I should have adhered to my gift of discernment which told me why throw the pearls when they will just be trampled on. But my human hope was that it wouldn't fall on deaf ears. Maybe it didn't after all.
[
"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Chri st in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily." - Colossians 1:26-29 KJV
How do you address that?[/QUOTE]
if you notice and it seems you do , revelation is not a linear timeline in chapter 16 it’s showing a description of this
“And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.”
Revelation 16:1
Chapter 17 is an explaination of the beast and woman we saw earlier in chapter 12 who was pursued into the wilderness and best of chapter 13 who has caught her
Chaoter 18 again is a description of what happened to Babylon the great explained in 17 To be the mother of harlots
Chaoter 19 shows in the first part heavens reaction to this judgement , and in the second part shows the destruction of the beast and false prophet by the word of God who was taken up in chaoter twelve To rule with a rod of iron.
it’s difficult to read because many are reading it the same way they would an earthly epistle or gospel account as if it’s linear in nature and not beyond the scale and constraints of time and the linear nature of earth.
for instance the beast that rises up in chapter 12 , represents kings from johns past , one in his present and 12 more that have yet to rise bekng in johns future when he saw the vision
“And there are seven kings:
five are fallen,( johns past )
and one is, (johns present day )
and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.” ( johns future )
Revelation 17:10-12
but even chapter eleven shows us that this is not represented in a linear timeline because the beast that rises from the abyss overpowers the two witnesses In Chapter 11
“And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.”
Revelation 11:7 KJV
Which we learn about in chapter 17
“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”
Revelation 17:8
Which those ten kings that serve the beast of which three fall they also show us how out of time revelation is
“For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.”
Revelation 17:17 KJV
my only point is revelation is not a linear continual story it’s a bunch of seperate visions that are Meant to be overlayed upon one another to form a cohesive message not about timing but about Gods plan that’s been unfolding since the beginning
"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Chri st in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily." - Colossians 1:26-29 KJV
How do you address that?[/QUOTE]
if you notice and it seems you do , revelation is not a linear timeline in chapter 16 it’s showing a description of this
“And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.”
Revelation 16:1
Chapter 17 is an explaination of the beast and woman we saw earlier in chapter 12 who was pursued into the wilderness and best of chapter 13 who has caught her
Chaoter 18 again is a description of what happened to Babylon the great explained in 17 To be the mother of harlots
Chaoter 19 shows in the first part heavens reaction to this judgement , and in the second part shows the destruction of the beast and false prophet by the word of God who was taken up in chaoter twelve To rule with a rod of iron.
it’s difficult to read because many are reading it the same way they would an earthly epistle or gospel account as if it’s linear in nature and not beyond the scale and constraints of time and the linear nature of earth.
for instance the beast that rises up in chapter 12 , represents kings from johns past , one in his present and 12 more that have yet to rise bekng in johns future when he saw the vision
“And there are seven kings:
five are fallen,( johns past )
and one is, (johns present day )
and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.” ( johns future )
Revelation 17:10-12
but even chapter eleven shows us that this is not represented in a linear timeline because the beast that rises from the abyss overpowers the two witnesses In Chapter 11
“And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.”
Revelation 11:7 KJV
Which we learn about in chapter 17
“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”
Revelation 17:8
Which those ten kings that serve the beast of which three fall they also show us how out of time revelation is
“For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.”
Revelation 17:17 KJV
my only point is revelation is not a linear continual story it’s a bunch of seperate visions that are Meant to be overlayed upon one another to form a cohesive message not about timing but about Gods plan that’s been unfolding since the beginning
Heaven and the clouds are something he must descend from but the clouds is as far as He goes. We meet Him in the clouds.
The second coming has no stopping place. It is war.
amen good point to consider here especially I thought
“You see, when Paul was being converted on Damasus road, Jesus didn't convict him of persecuting His people. Jesus convicted Paul of persecuting HIM.”
“and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”
Romans 8:17 KJV
“Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: but rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”
1 Peter 4:12-13
when we are baptized into christs name and identity we shouldn’t think we are immune from the sufferings and tribulations that he went through in this world but also we should rejoice because we also are partakers of his resurrection and inheritance in glory and the kingdom he promised his disciples past present and future
Hi Pilgrimshope,
Some excellent quetions there and I can see you are thinking very well. So.....who are these different ones.
1. The Great multitude. God`s word tell us they are from all the nations of the world and come out of the great tribulation. (Rev. 7: 9 - 17) I think they died of heat, hunger and thirst, (Rev. 7: 16)
Now they have palm branches in their hands. (Rev. 7: 9) Does that remind you of something? Yes the palm branches that Israel used to make the shelters, reminding them of their journey in the wilderness and God`s Tabernacle with them. Thus we see it is depicting God`s Tabernacle, (Rev. 21: 2) God dwelling with His people by His Holy Spirit.
Because they are of the nations under God`s tabernacle, (New Jerusalem) we read of them on the new earth. (Rev. 21: 24) They will be priests, as you say, in God`s temple on earth. They will serve God and the people who have been judged at the great white throne and found in the book of life. They were those who didn`t know of Jesus but lived a life according to their God given conscience. Their works reveal their motive. Judged by their works. (Rev. 20: 13)
Tabernacle - dwelling
Throne - rulership.
Temple - blessing.
2. Those in the New Jerusalem. This revelation was promised to the Old Testament people. Many believed and looked for the city whose builder and Maker was God. (Heb. 11. OT people. 11: 10, 16 etc)
Also the 144,000 priests of God for that city. (Rev. 7: 4 - 8, 14: 1 - 5, 21: 12 & 17) The walls are symbolic of protection and are 144 cubits, meaning 144,000.
Hope that is clear and helpful,
Marilyn.
Sorry I wasn`t clearer. The part in bold saying we will be ON the New earth. Have you scriptures for that?
``You have come to MOUNT ZION.....to God.....to Jesus...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)
The mount is symbolic of rulership.
And you are so right the Mount, seat of the Lord`s ruler does NOT descend.
He doesn't let me get away with anything either...I can hardly so much as think of it and He's like... you know I see all of that...and I'm like...ohmkay, *sigh*
Revelation 21:3 (ESV)
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Revelation 22:3–4 (ESV)
3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
The throne will be in the new Jerusalem in the new Earth. We will have new glorified bodies and we will be in the presence of Jesus forevermore. A new Earth is the new restored Eden.
The New Earth is not for the children of God who are within the Royal Priesthood. Their eternal home is the New Jerusalem. However it is for redeemed and restored Israel and the saved nations surrounding it.
Hi RS,
Yes I agree about the new earth. However the city was promised to the OT saints (Heb. 11: 16) NOT us, the Body of Christ. Our inheritance is in the highest with Christ on His seat of authority. (Rev. 3: 21) Note: His authority (represented by `throne,`) is in all of God`s great kingdom.
Our inheritance, our hope, our place, our citizenship, all of which are IN HEAVEN.
`...to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.` (1 Peter 1: 4 )
` ...because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of truth..`(Col. 1: 5)
` ...and raised us up together and made to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.`(Eph. 2: 6)
` For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 3: 20)
Getting there.... Our inheritance is even higher. Note what I said in my previous post.
The city was promised to the OT saints (Heb. 11: 16) NOT us, the Body of Christ. Our inheritance is in the highest with Christ on His seat of authority. (Rev. 3: 21) Note: His authority (represented by `throne,`) is in all of God`s great kingdom.
Our inheritance, our hope, our place, our citizenship, all of which are IN HEAVEN.
`...to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.` (1 Peter 1: 4 )
` ...because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of truth..`(Col. 1: 5)
` ...and raised us up together and made to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.`(Eph. 2: 6)
` For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 3: 20)
I think you are very wise. So far I've found that the post arguments fizzle out and the pre arguments get stronger.Hello Lori
I am a staunch, (as in nonnegotiable) pretrib premillenniallist. I think the rapture is one of the most solid biblical doctrines there is in all of the Bible.
Here is something to think about: why would God unfairly impose His own peculiar once for all time devastating wrath upon a peculiar tragically unfortunate generation of Christians?
Hint: He does not. On the contrary there, can be no doubt that God's (Biblically supported) mandate is to DELIVER His people FROM His wrath.
Post-trib theories fall on their face every single time. Which of course is to be expected!
“Yes I agree about the new earth. However the city was promised to the OT saints (Heb. 11: 16) NOT us, the Body of Christ”
sister the idea is that Gentiles have been added into Abrahams inheritance
“And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:29 KJV
we have been included with Israel there’s no seperation Gentiles who were excluded in the ot have now been made one with the saints
“that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one,
and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;”
Ephesians 2:12-15, 18-20 KJV
the Old Testament is fulfilled in Jesus now both Jew of the ot and gentile are one people Gentiles have been included into the same kingdom and inheritance
“who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:”
Colossians 1:13 KJV
The Jews first received the gospel because that was the ot promise
“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Mark 1:14-15
this same promise ofnthe kingdom began in Israel and would be preached to all nations and people
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matthew 24:14
those of isreal who accepted it became the church along with the saints of the ot and also then spread the same promise to all nations the church is made of all believers past present and future it’s why you see the ot First in heaven before the throne the tribes of Israel and then John looks and sees the same before the throne of all nations
there’s only one inheritance it’s all based on abrahams promise fulfilled in Christ
If you use the Holy Spirit you can do it yourself, there is no need in me wasting my time when no matter what evidence I supply you could care less because you think you already know, when you don't. But all those who mislead people today will have to answer after they get to heaven. There will be people in hell, who could have been saved but tarried too long actually believing they had to go through the tribulation no matter what choice they made, which is a of course just a master untruth from Satan.