F I R M A M E N T U M

[Dino246]

This circle was drawn on the "face of the deep", which is a flat surface - In solid geometry, a face is a flat surface - Wiki

Now the Bible is a textbook on solid geometry? Um, no. You are forcing your interpretation onto the text. As I stated previously, and you ignored, one can draw a circle on the exterior of many different shapes, including spheres.

 

[Blain]

We weren't talking about His "toughts", but the Word, which is plain and understandable:

Proverbs 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Even a child can understand the Word "circle":

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

The Hebrews disprove you, because they regard the firmament as solid:

he vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it, Genesis 1:6

But since you think the Hebrew language supports your "sphere", I went to chabad.org to the people who actually read the Word in Hebrew. This is what they have to say:

Proverbs 8:27
when He drew a circle over the face of the deep: When He drew the circle of the earth over the water, to draw a boundary that it may not pass. חוג is an expression of encircling, as in (Isa. 44: 13): “and with a compass (ובמחוגה) he rounds it.” (Compas in French, zirkel in German, as in Gen. 29:17, Isa. 5:22, 44:13, and Job 22:14.)

Isaiah 44:13
and with a compass he rounds it: Heb. יְתָאֳרֵהוּ, an expression similar to (Josh. 15:9): “And the border circled (וְתָאַר).” If he comes to make circular drawings, he draws around it with a compass, compas in French.

Joshua 15:9
And circled: Heb. וְתָאַר an expression similar to וְנָסַב, in a circle, like: “And with a compass he encircles it.” יְתָאֳרֵהוּ Jonathan rendered them all וְיִסְחַר, and he encircled.

Job 22:14
circle: Heb. חוג, the circle of the compass of the heavens, like (Isa. 44:13), “and with a compass (ובמחוגה) he rounds it,” compas in French

The Hebrews talk about a circle drawn by a compass:

This circle was drawn on the "face of the deep", which is a flat surface - In solid geometry, a face is a flat surface - Wiki
So, as you can see, There is not a singular translator, not a single translation, of any verse in any language, where the Word חוג is translated as "sphere".

Then likewise I will also ask them and find out for myself, but I do hope you see what they told you here they said it means to encircle to compass to round do you know what these expressions mean? they are revolving expressions not flat expressions so while for the moment until I get my answer from the rabbi we will be at a stand still on the whole sphere or orb thing your flat earth thing is also at a stand still as encircling comass drawing around all are about revolving they have nothing to do with anything being flat so by trying to prove me wrong in a way you did my job for me the word circle in the scripture you posted is meant to be read as a revolving word not a flat word.

 

[Blain]

So in short @DanielLL once again the hebrew language pulls through nothing of what they wrote says any mention of anything remotely involving flatness only revolving or encircling so the ball is in your court now

 

[posthuman]

We weren't talking about His "toughts", but the Word, which is plain and understandable

plain and understandable lol

you responded to this:

My thoughts are not your thoughts,​

nor are your ways My ways, ​

says the Lord.​

For as the heavens are higher than the earth,​

so are My ways higher than your ways,​

and My thoughts than your thoughts! ​

(Isaiah 55:8-9) ​

​

not just thoughts.
also ways.
ways of the Author of scripture.
the ways of the Author of scripture are as high above your ways as the heavens are higher than the earth


what's that mean?
God is only 2,000 miles higher than you?
The Almighty - reachable in a few hours by airship?

you really think?
you really think the Infinite God who wrote scripture -- you really think you comprehend that?
His infinite words infinitely above yours?
you got this?

you've never heard of Psalm 139:6?
Psalm 40:5?
Psalm 131:1?
Proverbs 30:2?
Romans 11:33?
Job 42:3?
Psalm 71:17?

you think none of that applies to you?
you think all those things are uninspired?


just questions.
because wow
God is not confined to our vain, pitiable human ways of thinking and doing.
have some awe of Him and His ways
the unsearchable wonder of His creation is to humble us, so we say, what is man that He is mindful of us?
but you REALLY think this awesome work is just a little fish tank?

how vogue
smh

 

[DanielLL]

I mean the Catholic organisation. This is the same organisation that believes we are descended from apes. If you find that in the Bible, I might reconsider flat earth theory.

Well, the globe earth is the one who is billions of years old, and denies creationism. The flat earth is only counts the years since creation. So if you don't believe in evolution, neither should you believe in a earth that has billions of years. The flat earth is the most biblical accurate view.

So in short @DanielLL once again the hebrew language pulls through nothing of what they wrote says any mention of anything remotely involving flatness only revolving or encircling so the ball is in your court now

Ok, we agree on "encircling" with a compass. Now as for the rest of the verse: "on the face of the deep".

The "deep" is waters:
Strong's:
primaeval ocean, deep, in Hebrew cosmogony, ׳מְּנֵי ת Genesis 1:2 (P; "" מְּנֵי הַמַּיִם), Proverbs 8:27 ("" שָׁמַיִם), Psalm 104:6.
Chabad.org:
Genesis 1:2 on the face of the deep: on the face of the waters which were on the earth.
Psalm 104:6 the deep: That is the sea.

The face of waters is a "surface":
Strong's:
b. From the sense of surface, Genesis 1:2 עלפֿני תהום upon the face of the deep

surface
/ˈsəːfɪs/
noun

1.the outside part or uppermost layer of something.
"the earth's surface"
2.GEOMETRY
a continuous set of points that has length and breadth but no thickness.

Now it's on you to explain, how can a sphere be drawn by a compass, on a two dimentional surface that has "no thickness"?
How can a sphere be drawn by a compass at all? Seeing the circumference is itself a circle, and not a sphere.
-So, it can't, that is why He drew a circle on the face of the deep, as it is written.

 

[DanielLL]

you really think the Infinite God who wrote scripture -- you really think you comprehend that?

Yes He is above, but His Word is revealed and we can receive it and understand:

Proverbs 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Habakkuk 2:2 And the Lord answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Proverbs 14:6 A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Proverbs 17:24 Wisdom is before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool are in the ends of the earth.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Why would the Word be written for men to read, if no man that readeth it could understand it? But the Word was written to those who have understanding. To them it is plain.

 

[posthuman]

Proverbs 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

"plain to him that understands"

don't you read your own posts?

There is none who understands; ​

there is none who seeks after God.​

(Romans 3:11) ​

​

you're not seeking God here;
when i speak of His majesty, How unsearchable are His ways! you protest.
you're boasting,
and you're trying to indoctrinate Christians into an idiotic flat-earth conspiracy theory.

why?

 

[Dino246]

Well, the globe earth is the one who is billions of years old, and denies creationism. The flat earth is only counts the years since creation.

The globe earth is a 'what', not a 'who'. It does not deny anything because it has no will or reasoning power. Similarly, the flat earth does not count as it has no intelligent mind to do so.

The flat earth is the most biblical accurate view.

Hogwash... and the word is 'biblically'.

Ok, we agree on "encircling" with a compass. Now as for the rest of the verse: "on the face of the deep".

The "deep" is waters:
Strong's:
primaeval ocean, deep, in Hebrew cosmogony, ׳מְּנֵי ת Genesis 1:2 (P; "" מְּנֵי הַמַּיִם), Proverbs 8:27 ("" שָׁמַיִם), Psalm 104:6.
Chabad.org:
Genesis 1:2 on the face of the deep: on the face of the waters which were on the earth.
Psalm 104:6 the deep: That is the sea.

The face of waters is a "surface":
Strong's:
b. From the sense of surface, Genesis 1:2 עלפֿני תהום upon the face of the deep

surface
/ˈsəːfɪs/
noun

1.the outside part or uppermost layer of something.
"the earth's surface"
2.GEOMETRY
a continuous set of points that has length and breadth but no thickness.

Now it's on you to explain, how can a sphere be drawn by a compass, on a two dimentional surface that has "no thickness"?
How can a sphere be drawn by a compass at all? Seeing the circumference is itself a circle, and not a sphere.
-So, it can't, that is why He drew a circle on the face of the deep, as it is written.

That's moronic. You don't simply dredge whatever definition from the dictionary that happens to suit your interpretation. Learn how to interpret Scripture properly and stop wasting everyone's time with your eisegesis.

 

[posthuman]

My thoughts are not your thoughts,nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord.For as the heavens are higher than the earth,so are My ways higher than your ways,and My thoughts than your thoughts! (Isaiah 55:8-9) not just thoughts.
also ways.
ways of the Author of scripture.
the ways of the Author of scripture are as high above your ways as the heavens are higher than the earth


what's that mean?
God is only 2,000 miles higher than you?
The Almighty - reachable in a few hours by airship?

does God mean that if you travel to the edge of the universe, where the glass dome meets the ground in Antarctica, your ways will be equal to His ways?
seeing that @DanielLL is preaching flat earth
and that he is preaching "the heavens" are just a thin layer of deception made to trick us into looking exactly like impossibly distant stars and stuff
since of course @DanielLL believes it is to God's glory to fool us if we consider the work of God's hands ((. . .? bruh? really?))
and he is preaching the heavens touch the ground at the edge of the earth

hey -- if you go to Antarctica, you will technically be higher than the heavens. they will be at your feet if you stand next to the aquarium wall.
so then God says your ways will be higher than His? your thoughts higher than His?
is that what flat-earth-religion teaches about Isaiah 55:8-9?

wow this is all so much to take in.

you flat-experts are going to have to teach me how to understand Isaiah, probably
i am surely more stupid than any man
surely i do not have understanding
surely i do not have knowledge of The Holy One!

and here i thought Christianity was about Jesus!
what an idiot i have been

 

[Blain]

plain and understandable lol

you responded to this:

My thoughts are not your thoughts,​

nor are your ways My ways, ​

says the Lord.​

For as the heavens are higher than the earth,​

so are My ways higher than your ways,​

and My thoughts than your thoughts! ​

(Isaiah 55:8-9) ​

​

not just thoughts.
also ways.
ways of the Author of scripture.
the ways of the Author of scripture are as high above your ways as the heavens are higher than the earth


what's that mean?
God is only 2,000 miles higher than you?
The Almighty - reachable in a few hours by airship?

you really think?
you really think the Infinite God who wrote scripture -- you really think you comprehend that?
His infinite words infinitely above yours?
you got this?

you've never heard of Psalm 139:6?
Psalm 40:5?
Psalm 131:1?
Proverbs 30:2?
Romans 11:33?
Job 42:3?
Psalm 71:17?

you think none of that applies to you?
you think all those things are uninspired?


just questions.
because wow
God is not confined to our vain, pitiable human ways of thinking and doing.
have some awe of Him and His ways
the unsearchable wonder of His creation is to humble us, so we say, what is man that He is mindful of us?
but you REALLY think this awesome work is just a little fish tank?

how vogue
smh

 

[Blain]

Well, the globe earth is the one who is billions of years old, and denies creationism. The flat earth is only counts the years since creation. So if you don't believe in evolution, neither should you believe in a earth that has billions of years. The flat earth is the most biblical accurate view.

Ok, we agree on "encircling" with a compass. Now as for the rest of the verse: "on the face of the deep".

The "deep" is waters:
Strong's:
primaeval ocean, deep, in Hebrew cosmogony, ׳מְּנֵי ת Genesis 1:2 (P; "" מְּנֵי הַמַּיִם), Proverbs 8:27 ("" שָׁמַיִם), Psalm 104:6.
Chabad.org:
Genesis 1:2 on the face of the deep: on the face of the waters which were on the earth.
Psalm 104:6 the deep: That is the sea.

The face of waters is a "surface":
Strong's:
b. From the sense of surface, Genesis 1:2 עלפֿני תהום upon the face of the deep

surface
/ˈsəːfɪs/
noun

1.the outside part or uppermost layer of something.
"the earth's surface"
2.GEOMETRY
a continuous set of points that has length and breadth but no thickness.

Now it's on you to explain, how can a sphere be drawn by a compass, on a two dimentional surface that has "no thickness"?
How can a sphere be drawn by a compass at all? Seeing the circumference is itself a circle, and not a sphere.
-So, it can't, that is why He drew a circle on the face of the deep, as it is written.

The same way an onion has a surface upon every layer that it has yet it is in the shape of a sphere so can the earths oceans have layers. Now as for drawing a sphere you are comparing a person drawing a sphere to God creating one that is hardly a good example just because you cannot draw a sphere doesn't mean that the earth cannot have layers be a sphere and be a circle all at once. if an onion can be as it is why can the earth not be the same?

And again as I mentioned earlier in this thread we are not talking about the image of a circle we are talking about the word circle since that is the whole thing your basing your theory on

 

[posthuman]

The same way an onion has a surface upon every layer that it has yet it is in the shape of a sphere so can the earths oceans have layers. Now as for drawing a sphere you are comparing a person drawing a sphere to God creating one that is hardly a good example just because you cannot draw a sphere doesn't mean that the earth cannot have layers be a sphere and be a circle all at once. if an onion can be as it is why can the earth not be the same?

And again as I mentioned earlier in this thread we are not talking about the image of a circle we are talking about the word circle since that is the whole thing your basing your theory on

i don't see any reason to confine God into 2 dimensions
not even 3

but mathematically, the projection of an n-dimensional hypersphere onto any plane is always a circle. no matter what n

so consider that we have infinite God
He says to mankind, "circle"
what does infinite God, who stoops infinitely just to acknowledge mankind, much less explain anything to us - what does infinite God mean when He says 'circle' ?

does He mean He put us into a fishbowl with fake walls designed to look like an actual ocean?
wow
i don't think so

i think we should not think of 'circle' according to the basest, most ignorant possible human understanding of 'circle'
i think we need to look at that as though it's something we can barely scratch the surface of

do i think if God put us in a fishbowl it's a simple one?
no, i do not think that.
i think God's ways are infinitely higher than mine, and His thoughts also - so when God thinks "circle" --- that is infinitely higher than my idea of circle. and it is not going to make me smarter than God if i go to Antarctica, lol!

 

[DanielLL]

You forgot that you have to draw it on a two dimentional surface that has "no thickness".

God creating one

The Word doesn't say God created, it says: "He drew a circle"

just because you cannot draw a sphere doesn't mean that the earth cannot have layers be a sphere and be a circle all at once

You can't have a sphere beeing a circle and a circle beeing a sphere, they are not the same thing. This is basic geometry, childreen level. It goes to show the lenghts you are willing to go to, in order to keep your sphere, which you have inserted into the Word, and is not written by anyone anywhere, as we have seen already.

if an onion can be as it is why can the earth not be the same?

Because the Word says He drew a (singular) circle. It doesn't say He draw multiple circles, neither smaller than each other, nor anything. He drew a circle (singular). You can't draw a singular circle with a compass on a flat surface, don't try to draw multiple

 

[DanielLL]

not just thoughts.
also ways.
ways of the Author of scripture.

Well, if there are none that understand Scripture, may I ask, what are you doing in a Bible discussion forum? Sharing your "no understanding" of Scripture, heh? Discussing about those things, you know, that "none understand", right?

 

[posthuman]

Well, if there are none that understand Scripture, may I ask, what are you doing in a Bible discussion forum? Sharing your "no understanding" of Scripture, heh? Discussing about those things, you know, that "none understand", right?

yup

"seek her like silver" -- Proverbs 2:4

 

[DanielLL]

yup

"seek her like silver" -- Proverbs 2:4

Ah, you see, there are some that understand after all.

 

[Dino246]

You forgot that you have to draw it on a two dimentional surface that has "no thickness".

…It goes to show the lenghts you are willing to go to, in order to keep your sphere, which you have inserted into the Word,

That’s hypocrisy, given that you inserted “no thickness” and “two dimensional” into the Word where it simply says “surface”.

You can't draw a singular circle with a compass on a flat surface,

Huh? In what world? Even a child can do that.

 

[Angela53510]

He drew a "perfect literal two dimensional circle":

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,


Why not? The shape is a circle, but there is depth and height too, below and above the circle. The face of the deep is a flat plane, but the deep itself has depth below, and height above the deep.


Interpretations of your own understanding. I will lean on the Word instead.

If ever there was a someone "leaning to their own understanding" it is you. As Dino said, learn Biblical Hebrew & Koine Greek. It took me a couple of years, and it has helped me tremendously in studying the Bible.

Instead of using an archaic Bible full of obsolete words, or faux amis, (false friends) words that meant one thing 400 years ago, and have changed completely today, dig into the original languages, and reevaluate your theory in the OP!

Even though I read Greek and Hebrew well, I don't know Latin or Early Modern English. But I do know that space is NOT water, and you are taking words out of context, which is bad Bible interpretation, and forcing them to say something never intended by the writer, nor God.

 

[Angela53510]

You forgot that you have to draw it on a two dimentional surface that has "no thickness".


The Word doesn't say God created, it says: "He drew a circle"


You can't have a sphere beeing a circle and a circle beeing a sphere, they are not the same thing. This is basic geometry, childreen level. It goes to show the lenghts you are willing to go to, in order to keep your sphere, which you have inserted into the Word, and is not written by anyone anywhere, as we have seen already.

Because the Word says He drew a (singular) circle. It doesn't say He draw multiple circles, neither smaller than each other, nor anything. He drew a circle (singular). You can't draw a singular circle with a compass on a flat surface, don't try to draw multiple

The more you write, the more you demonstrate that you are poorly educated. I'm not talking about the Bible, but just spelling words correctly!

1. Beeing? Is this when bee 🐝 hive keepers go and get the honey? Here we go abeeing so merrily, trah La la La la!
The word is "being." It's from the infinitive verb ""to be."

2." Childreen?" maybe you are a on a manual typewriter and the E sticks? Seriously, I had an ancient typewriter for my undergrad degree, and the W stuck. Roll out the white eraser tape.

3. "He draw" last paragraph, second line. No, he drew. Simple past tense, third person masculine singular of the word, "to draw." Or maybe it is "He draws"? Present tense. Hard to figure out if you are talking present or past tense.

Of course, we all make typos and sometimes auto spell check can change it, to something we never intended. But, a simple proof reading of the post before posting should reveal a few of those mistakes. Editing. It's something you learn starting in La grade 4, all the way to grade 12, or don't they teach that anymore?

My point is you have done this in many posts. You pretend to be a big Bible scholar, but you write at maybe a grade 7 level. Even if you were right (which you are NOT!) it's off putting for people to dodge around the numerous writing mistakes and then believe any if your eisegetical wandering through the Bible. Your actual theory shows how little you know about Bible interpretation, to say nothing of science.

I believe in a young earth. I have many scientific reasons. In fact, I read a lot of books, and started believing the paradigm of a young earth, before I believed in Christ. I was quite persuaded on the basis of science that evolution was not possible, although I had no clue who created the earth. God brought people into my life to witness to me, and then showed me Jesus is the Saviour of the earth! Then I knew Jesus was the Creator God.

My advice is learn to write English, study Bible interpretation, and learn Biblical Hebrew and a Koine Greek. Then you will realize what a ridiculous flat earth theory you have created!

 

[Angela53510]

Circle means sphere or orb? What does sphere mean then?
And where are you getting this from? I can't find it:
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
circle, circuit, compass
[חוּג] verb draw round, make a circle

Stop using Strong's as a scholarly reference book. It is a concordance! It starts with KJV English, flips a gloss off a Hebrew or Greek word, then converts it back to English. I used it before I could read Greek or Hebrew, and had no clue about good hermeneutics. I also found some very interesting theories, which I now know are incorrect. That is growing as a Christian, when you can acknowledge your silly mistakes!

You are going to have to learn to use lexicons, which translate from the original languages to English.

Brown-Driver-Briggs for Hebrew. BDAG or Bauer for Koine Greek. Plus, these lexicons don't just have the most common gloss. They list every use of a Hebrew or Greek work, then where they are referenced in the Bible. I use those books for everything. I have a few other Greek and Hebrew tools, plus commentaries, and an "Exegetical and Linguistic Key to the New Testament." I challenge you to learn the alphabets for Hebrew and Greek, and use The Lexicons, instead of a KJV Concordance of English to English!