Are we in the end times ?

[Amanuensis]

That is a TERRIBLE understanding of Hebrews 10:37. Back up to verse 25 and get the context. The writer told those of HIS day that THEY should not neglect the assembling of themselves together. Why? Because THEY were "in a very, very little while" see the "day approaching.

Also, check out Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians. He is speaking to THEM and to not to US. He commends THEM for their faith that is reported throughout the world. Then he comforts them by telling them that THEY will be vindicated and those who are troubling THEM will be persecuted by God in the same measure and manner that THEY persecuted His people (those Thessalonians).

When would this happen? In THEIR lifetime. THEY would be vindicated and given relief AT HIS APPEARING. THEY not WE!

We must stop making everything about us and pay attention to audience relevance and context. In many, many cases as we read the Scriptures, WE are NOT the YE.

The coming in Hebrews 10:37 is not a personal coming to each of us. That is grave violation of the CONTEXT. The people the writer is addressing were being persecuted, imprisoned, had their property taken, etc. Paul compelling them to do lose heart--their faith will be rewarded. That was to happen in their lifetime "in a very, very little while" at the Lord's Parousia. And then THEIR persecutors were going to fall "into the hands of the living God."

So you think this happened at 70AD?
2 thess 1
5All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

 

[Beckie]

2 Thess 2:3b ... that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

no mention of antichrist

 

[Magenta]

no mention of antichrist

Why else would the man of lawlessness be doomed to destruction other than denying the Father and the Son?

Denying the Father and the Son is part of the Biblical definition of antichrist.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

If you believe that the Bible is timeless, then it can't be limited to that one group of people in that on particular circumstance, what applies to them must be applied to readers at all times.

If you believe that the Bible is timeless, then it can't be limited to that one group of people in that on particular circumstance, what applies to them must be applied to readers at all times.

The PRINCIPLES and TRUTHS of the Bible are timeless, but the historical SETTINGS are not. If someone writes a letter to a particular person at a particular time for a particular purpose and about events pertaining to HIM and to HIS time, why would it be about anyone else? This is common, logical thinking. That letter has NOTHING to do with you.

Jesus and His apostles spoke to particular people during a particular time for a particular purpose about events pertaining particularly to those of THEIR day. The words in the Bible are often FOR us but they are often not TO us.

It is the worst type of exegesis to look at the Olivet Discourse and think that Jesus was speaking to US. He was not. WE are NOT the YE. His words of prophecy and warning were directed at those very disciples standing there with Him. THEY were not to be troubled; THEY were to hear of wars and rumors of wars; THEY would be hated and killed for His name's sake; THEY were to see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet; THEY were not to follow the false Christs that were to come in THEIR day; THEY were to recognize the signs of His coming as surely as THEY recognized the coming of summer in the budding of the trees. THEY were to know that ALL of the things He told them would happen in THEIR own generation. THAT is audience relevance; that is proper adherence to the HISTORICAL SETTING.

Again, futurists have to make such nonsensical statements as "the Bible . . . can't be limited to that one group of people in that on (sic) particular circumstance . . . .what applies to them must be applied to readers of all times." That is NOT true. This approach is nothing more than one of desperation because the futurist paradigm CANNOT be made to fit the clear timing of events in the Bible. The student of the Word must be careful lest he let his preconceived ideas cause him to twist the words of Scripture to fit them.

To those of HIS day, the writer of Hebrews wrote: "In a very, very little while He who is coming will come and will NOT delay" (10:37). That was NOT directed at any other people than those of the writer's very day.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

Why else would the man of lawlessness be doomed to destruction other than denying the Father and the Son?

Denying the Father and the Son is part of the Biblical definition of antichrist.

He was someone KNOWN by those of THAT day. THOSE very Thessalonians were going to be vindicated at the APPEARING of Christ in THEIR lifetime. Pay close attention to chapter one. The timing is clear.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

That's what I am always saying that I see others [other viewpoints] doing (rather than it being the "futurist" viewpoint supposedly doing this). = )





[note to readers: see again my Post #359, just above this one; See also the SAME set of words used also in both Luke 18:8 and in Romans 16:20 - "G1722 G5034" ("in quickness [noun]")]

If you insist on the translation "in quickness" in Romans 16:20, still keep in mind that Paul said "under YOUR feet." Whose feet? The of feet of those of HIS day. Timing is still the essence of tachos. It is too often associated with SOONNESS for it to be dismissed as having some quickness of performance or completion as its nuance. This is splitting hairs for the sake of promoting a position.

Taken with the NUMEROUS NT statements that teach Jesus' SOON return to those of THAT day, the meaning of tachos becomes unavoidably clear.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

THEY were to know that ALL of the things He told them would happen in THEIR own generation. THAT is audience relevance; that is proper adherence to the HISTORICAL SETTING.

But it was not "their own generation". It's the "fig tree generation", a "budding" generation. You know what happened to "their own generation"? Read Matthew 21:18-22. Their generation was cursed and withering away.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

That is what I am saying I see in at least five sources I'm looking at, in front of me

These three online all have "G1722 G5034" (in [/en - G1722] quickness [tachei / taxei - G5034]... which could also legit be translated: "with [G1722] speed [noun - G5034]," as some have it [or "in speed"]... carrying the same meaning as "in quickness" which I spelled out in that previous post [Post #341]):

1)--Bible Hub - Rev 1:1 "G1722 G5034" - https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/1-1.htm
(same as in 22:6 - https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/22-6.htm )


2)--Blue Letter Bible - Rev1:1 "G1722 G5034" - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/1/1/ss1/s_1168001
(same as in 22:6 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/22/6/ss1/s_1189006 )


3), 4), 5) ... and in three hard copy interlinears I have always within reach of my desk here, these show the same thing ^ in the GREEK:
"en taxei" or "en tachei" ... that is, "G1722 G5034 [en tachei / taxei]" next to each other under the Greek words (in both Rev1:1 and 22:6). [underline mine]





So, I'm not sure what you are seeing (or perhaps are not seeing ). = )

I stand corrected but what you do not see is the connection between verse 1:3 and 1:1 and 22:6 and 22:10. "The time is NEAR." NEAR! Any QUICKNESS that you want to insist on happened SOON in John's day. ENGUS--NEAR. That is what you did not see.

 

[Magenta]

He was someone KNOWN by those of THAT day. THOSE very Thessalonians were going to be vindicated at the APPEARING of Christ in THEIR lifetime. Pay close attention to chapter one. The timing is clear.

Do you then disagree that the man of lawlessness doomed to destruction is an antichrist?

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

But it was not "their own generation". It's the "fig tree generation", a "budding" generation. You know what happened to "their own generation"? Read Matthew 21:18-22. Their generation was cursed and withering away.

What is the world is the "fig tree" generation? Where are you getting that from? Matthew 24:32? Please compare that to Luke 21 where Luke wrote: ". . . the parable of the fig tree and ALL THE TREES."

It WAS their own generation. Jesus used the expression THIS generation twenty times. He ALWAYS meant His contemporaries. What does that expression mean in Matthew 23? To those apostate Jews of THAT day, those guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth, Jesus said: "ALL THESE THINGS will come upon THIS generation." He tied that to the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70. "Behold, YOUR house is left unto YOU desolate."

You strain at the meaning of this simple expression because your preconceived ideas will not allow for the fulfillment of the things Jesus warned THOSE very disciples about. You have an incorrect concept of His return, the resurrection, and the judgment, so you cannot allow Matthew 24:29ff to fit into the clear constraints of THIS generation. You must re-evaluate your understanding of the Parousia, the Resurrection, and the Judgment or you will always distort the plain timing of the events of the NT.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

But it was not "their own generation". It's the "fig tree generation", a "budding" generation. You know what happened to "their own generation"? Read Matthew 21:18-22. Their generation was cursed and withering away.

Where does Jesus say that "their generation was cursed and withering away" in Matthew 21. The context is about faith to move mountains.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Where does Jesus say that "their generation was cursed and withering away" in Matthew 21. The context is about faith to move mountains.

Fig tree has always been a symbol of Israel (Hosea 9:10). In their own generation what they saw with their own eyes was the fig tree cursed and withering away, when did they see it budding and putting forth leaves?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What is the world is the "fig tree" generation? Where are you getting that from? Matthew 24:32? Please compare that to Luke 21 where Luke wrote: ". . . the parable of the fig tree and ALL THE TREES."

Revival of that fig tree is a sign of times, and it's definitely one of "these things" which "must take place" in Matthew 24:33-34. Did that revival take place? Quite the opposite, in Luke 13:6-9 it had been barren for three years and the master was threatening to chop it down. This sign had never taken place until the founding of modern Israel 1948. You can't keep pounding on one half of a verse while ignoring the other half which sets a hard condition.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

From the standpoint of the present of a vision of what is being said in the future, it does then translate, from the then present to the to now future as, 'will become.'
I'm curious how you might explain Acts 1:11 statement, "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven."

"From the standpoint of the present of a vision of what is being said in the future, it does then translate, from the then present to the to now future as, 'will become.'" That makes no exegetical or grammatical sense. The 2 aorist of that Greek word makes it clear that it was THEN a past event when those words were spoken. You are incorrectly forcing it to be future. It is not. Again, the vision is set in the setting of the things which were to "IN QUICKNESS" (if you must strain it) take place at a time was then NEAR! The fulfillment of the vision was NEAR THEN--not future to us. Taken with NEAR, tachos means SOON or SHORTLY.

What is there to explain about Acts 1:11? The issue there is not Jesus' physical body or His going UPWARD. The issue is the CLOUDS. The passage is not drawing attention to fluffy cumulous formations in the sky. CLOUDS are significant OT, prophetic metaphors for God's glory and presence. Jesus was taken out of their sight in the CLOUDS OF GLORY. This expresses Jesus' deity and power. He was to come again in that same glory and power (CLOUDS). That is the point of Acts 1. Jesus told Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin: "YOU [Caiaphas and leaders of Israel) will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of POWER and COMING on the CLOUDS of heaven" (Mat. 26:64).

Where were all the people's of the earth when Jesus ascended? Did "every eye" see Him depart? Where was the trumpet sound? The LIKE manner was the CLOUDS of glory and power. He returned not as the physical Jesus but as the ascended, glorified, Lord of Lords with all POWER and MAJESTY.

The misunderstanding of Acts 1 and Revelation 1:7 have led to a false doctrine of Christ's return. It is this false doctrine that causes countless Christians to stumble over simple time words. The "every eye" that saw Jesus was restricted to those of the "tribes of the land" (OT nation of Israel) and in the lifetime of "those who pierced Him." Jesus said, "Behold, I am coming SOON" (tachos--without "en" LOL). And He did or He lied! Is your Lord a liar?

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

Fig tree has always been a symbol of Israel (Hosea 9:10). In their own generation what they saw with their own eyes was the fig tree cursed and withering away, when did they see it budding and putting forth leaves?

When did they see it (and ALL the trees) "budding and putting forth leaves"? When Jesus said they would. In HIS and THEIR very generation. And who did He say would see it? THOSE very disciples. "When YOU [my disciples standing right here with Me] see ALL THESE THINGS, YOU know that it is NEAR [summer], right at the door." THIS generation will not pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place." The focus is NOT the trees. The FOCUS is upon their ability to recognize the signs of His coming. THEY were to see those signs as clearly and easily as THEY saw the SIGNS of summer in the budding of SIMPLE trees around them.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

Revival of that fig tree is a sign of times, and it's definitely one of "these things" which "must take place" in Matthew 24:33-34. Did that revival take place? Quite the opposite, in Luke 13:6-9 it had been barren for three years and the master was threatening to chop it down. This sign had never taken place until the founding of modern Israel 1948. You can't keep pounding on one half of a verse while ignoring the other half which sets a hard condition.

I'm ignoring "the other half?" Really? THIS generation will not pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place." Where does the Bible teach anything about a "revival of the fig trees"? It does not. And Jesus did not say "one of these things." He said ALL THESE THINGS. That includes those disciples and those of their day seeing the ABOMINATION of DESOLATION spoken of by Daniel the prophet. YOU are ignoring the ALL THESE THINGS that Jesus said would occur in THAT generation.

1948 had NOTHING to do with Bible prophecy. Modern-day Israel was created by the U.N. It is NOT OT Israel.

 

[LoveBrokeThru]

WE are at the end of the "time of the Gentiles".

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

When did they see it (and ALL the trees) "budding and putting forth leaves"? When Jesus said they would. In HIS and THEIR very generation. And who did He say would see it? THOSE very disciples. "When YOU [my disciples standing right here with Me] see ALL THESE THINGS, YOU know that it is NEAR [summer], right at the door." THIS generation will not pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place." The focus is NOT the trees. The FOCUS is upon their ability to recognize the signs of His coming. THEY were to see those signs as clearly and easily as THEY saw the SIGNS of summer in the budding of SIMPLE trees around them.

Well the fig tree was among all those tree. Other trees were budding and putting forth leaves, but not that fig tree which had withered away. This cursing of the fig tree was recorded in all three synoptic gospels, in Matthew it withered, in Mark 11:12-14 it was cursed, in Luke it was barren, His disciples saw all of these, but none of them saw the fig tree "budding" again.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

Fig tree has always been a symbol of Israel (Hosea 9:10). In their own generation what they saw with their own eyes was the fig tree cursed and withering away, when did they see it budding and putting forth leaves?

Hosea 9:10 "Like GRAPES in the wilderness I found Israel, like the FIRST FRUIT on the fig tree in its season I saw your fathers." Is Israel also symbolized by GRAPES? Notice the LIKE. These are similes. This is figurative language. Also, Israel is not being associated with the FIG tree but with its FRUIT. This is a simple figure of speech and has nothing to do with prophecy.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I'm ignoring "the other half?" Really? THIS generation will not pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place." Where does the Bible teach anything about a "revival of the fig trees"? It does not. And Jesus did not say "one of these things." He said ALL THESE THINGS. That includes those disciples and those of their day seeing the ABOMINATION of DESOLATION spoken of by Daniel the prophet. YOU are ignoring the ALL THESE THINGS that Jesus said would occur in THAT generation.

1948 had NOTHING to do with Bible prophecy. Modern-day Israel was created by the U.N. It is NOT OT Israel.

"Budding" of the fig tree is the first "thing" of all things, revival is just another word for it. If this first thing in that very context didn't happen, how could anything else have happened?

Also, in Luke 21:24 it clearly states: "until the TIMES OF THE GENTILES are fulfilled." Till this day Israel only had half of Jerusalem; and in Matt. 24:14, "the gospel will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations". Are those things not a part of ALL THESE THINGS? How were they completed in those disciples' generation?