Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Let's hear your scripture. If I'm wrong I want to know about it.

Additionally,
The phrase "only begotten" (John 1:14,18, 3:16,18; Hebrews 11:17; 1 John 4:9 KJB), is basically monogene (μονογενῆ; John 3:16; Hebrews 11:17; 1 John 4:9) or monogenes (μονογενὴς; John 1:18) or monogenous (μονογενοῦς; John 1:14, 3:18) and in context refers to the Son's eternal nature as Deity, being the only one of the same nature as His Father (Philippians 2:5-7 KJB, "form of God" (nature of Deity) in contrast to "form of a servant" (nature of mankind); and Hebrews 1:3, "the express image" (of the eternal Father)). Mono means only, or singular, even one. Genes, refers to nature, not birth or coming into existence. Mono - Gene, simply means in context "the only one that shares the same nature as the Father". Jesus is the original Heir of the Father by nature (being eternal Deity in nature as His Father is). The other "sons", like the created heavenly angelic hosts (like Gabriel and 'herald', etc) are not of the same eternal nature as the Father and Son. Those angelic hosts have their own created flesh nature's (1 Corinthians 15:35-45; Hebrews 2:16; Jude 1:7 KJB) which differs from God's eternal flesh nature and mankind's flesh nature. They are "sons" by creation. Mankind, in a similar, though slightly differing fashion, are also "sons" by creation (at the first, in Adam), but now adopted by redemption (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6 KJB). They are all "sons", but Jesus is the only "son" by original eternal nature of the Father. This is why the Father is called "the only 'true' God" (means underived and original nature) and the Son is the "only begotten" (derives the eternal nature from or) of the Father. In other words the word 'true' simply means that the Father's eternal nature is original with Himself, while the Son derives that nature by the Father. This is what makes them eternal Father and eternal Son.

This does not mean that the Father is, or ever was 'human'. The Son, in Philippians 2 took on an additional nature (mankind's flesh nature) to the original eternal nature He always had (Deity's nature).

 

[justbyfaith]

God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and not a Man (Numbers 23:19).

 

[CS1]

the argument of understanding the Godhead fully from our fleshly state is impossible.

Prophecy= is one who is speaking under the inspiration which must be spiritually discerned, yet, we are limited in even the inspiration of the Holy Spirit because of our fallen flesh which is always against the Spirit Gal 5:17-25.

Paul said we can't fully know until this moral put on immortality and the corruption is put on incorruptibility.

we have limited revelation. General = creation special= The word of God illumination = the Holy Spirit in relationship with Christ and the word of God.


The Prophetic word of God does three things for man:

1. We learn our need for God and to repent and accept Jesus as the Spirit of God leads us to Christ.
2. we received revelation from HIS word for appropriate worship & righteous living Therefore in that we know God

That is it on this side of glory.

the simplifying of the Full nature Divine nature of God is profane, meaning " to make common".

for example the eggshell, yoke, and while or water: ice steam and liquid.

These are man's rationale to explain the One True God.

I tell you they are futile in doing so. Hebrew 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

 

[CS1]

Jesus was not created IF He is the Son of the One true God HE has all the attributes of THe Father.

Jesus received worship as God John 20
He foreknew as God Matthew 24
He was Called Lord and God John 20

Jesus has no beginning the Spirit ofChrist is Eternal as Jesus said " I AM"

The Context of the Lord after Jesus has risen from the Dead is not only of respect and reverence and honor IT is the very Statement all will bow their Knee to and Confess with their Mouth. Jesus is Fully God and fully man.

 

[CS1]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.


The Testimony of Jesus Christ is TRUE!! which is :

8“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

THe ALmighty is GOD, not the word Messiah, but GOD. In Greek AlMighty here in Revelation1: 8 is pantokratōr =God (as absolute and universal sovereign):—Almighty, Omnipotent.

HE who died and lives forever more

 

[justbyfaith]

While it is also true that the Father, descending into time, took on an added nature of human flesh to create the Person of the Son (Isaiah 45:11, Romans 1:3).

Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35); otherwise, if He was eternally begotten, that is two Spirits who are God in eternity and is in effect two Gods.

While we know that the scripture teaches that we do well to believe in one God (James 2:19).

Of course, He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) and thus He exists side-by-side with the Father in eternity (John 1:1); being outside of time once again.

This there are two Persons existing outside of time who are in effect the same Person at different stages of development.

Since God does not change, any time we see a change in God it is because we are seeing a different Person in the Trinity than we were looking at before.

God the Father does not understand humanity in the experiential sense; but the Son and the Holy Ghost do understand humanity in the experiential sense. So, there is a difference of personality from Person to Person.

The one Spirit who is God (the Father, John 4:23-24) incarnated (John 14:7-11, Isaiah 9:6, 1 Timothy 3:16 (kjv)) so that He could die on the Cross and thus give us the gift of eternal life.

If there were not time and the Cross, there would be no Trinity.

But God created a plan and purpose to defeat satan from His position in eternity; really to defeat evil since evil is something that could exist and therefore it did exist in the creation of God; since God thought through every possibility when He planned things out.

He exists for one eternal moment and then descended to become the Son,

Eph 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

There is one Spirit; and if Jesus be God He is that Spirit (John 4:24)

Since the Father is also that Spirit (John 4:23-24), I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Spirit;

albeit Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

 

[CS1]

it is those who say "I don't belong to any religious organization. " Yet, are very much holding to a doctrinal position and say they don't.
it is pride. Just listen to the responses when people say to you


"If we are intellectually honest "

They do not want to hear or care what you say even if you provided scripture. Then, it is you are wrong and adding to the word of God. Yet the very thing they accuse you of, they do. Those like this just listen to them, They study more than you. They are not following any denomination because they know the truth. God gave them the truth, not you. They have to attack all others to keep a sense of security and to admit they are wrong is too hard to bear why? Pride and they have a religious spirit.

They will never accept what can't be known. God's fully divine nature can not be fully understood by man. Yet this person knows everything about God more than any other person alive or ever was. people like this think they who are finite fully comprehend the Infinite God.

Those like this thrive on the debate and will ignore your biblical point that is true at all cost why? Because they are self-deceived.

Don't get sucked into trying to even debate this topic because they are not going to care they want their pride and ego groped.

 

[CS1]

t is unbiblical to refer to the Holy Spirit as "an energy".

The Holy Spirit can be grieved, Blasphemy, and quenched. He is called the:

Comforter, Spirit of the Living God Spirit of the Lord, and Holy Ghost. He empowers, leads into all truth Speaks of Jesus as John 14 -16 Chapters tell us. He convicts the world of sin, draws men and women to Christ for salvation.

TO speak of the Holy Spirit as energy when HE is the Spirit of GOD who is GOD is speaking profane of the Spirit of the living God.

This is not a Christian doctrine to say the Holy Spirit is energy.

It is not even Oneness, this comes from the cult "Jehovah witnesses".

This language referred to the Holy Spirit as an "energy " should never be used
and those who do are unlearned in the Context of the Holy Spirt and are making the Holy Spirit common. Are there other energies in the world? Can the Holy Spirit be placed in the context of energies as all others?

HE is GOD!

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh (Romans 1:3, Isaiah 45:11).

There is a simplicity in Christ (2 Corinthians 11:3-4), that, if anyone will simply understand that He is one God and that the Father is a Spirit without flesh inhabiting eternity while Jesus is that same Spirit come in human flesh; that Jesus is the incarnation of God, and that God is the Father,

Then they may understand the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

t is unbiblical to refer to the Holy Spirit as "an energy".

The Holy Spirit can be grieved, Blasphemy, and quenched. He is called the:

Comforter, Spirit of the Living God Spirit of the Lord, and Holy Ghost. He empowers, leads into all truth Speaks of Jesus as John 14 -16 Chapters tell us. He convicts the world of sin, draws men and women to Christ for salvation.

TO speak of the Holy Spirit as energy when HE is the Spirit of GOD who is GOD is speaking profane of the Spirit of the living God.

This is not a Christian doctrine to say the Holy Spirit is energy.

It is not even Oneness, this comes from the cult "Jehovah witnesses".

This language referred to the Holy Spirit as an "energy " should never be used
and those who do are unlearned in the Context of the Holy Spirt and are making the Holy Spirit common. Are there other energies in the world? Can the Holy Spirit be placed in the context of energies as all others?

HE is GOD!

Who are you referring to?

I do not refer to the Holy Spirit as being "energy"...

I believe that He is a Person (Romans 8:26-27).

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and not a Man (Numbers 23:19).

Angels and man are also "spirits", I gave those verses, and it means that God the father, angels and men are thinking intelligences with form, body, image, likeness, etc.


1. Numbers 23:19 KJB is in the immediate context of Numbers 23:13-26 KJB known as the 2nd oracle of Balaam the prophet of madness (2 Peter 2:16 KJB).

Consider that Numbers 23:19 KJB comes immediately after Balaam begins his prophetic "parable" (Numbers 23:18 KJB), which, by the way, uses proper names (so much for that myth that parables cannot or do not use or have proper names, ie Luke 16).

2. The text does not say, "God is not a man (full stop)" with period. To say so takes the phrase out of context which is what a devil would do (Matthew 4:6; Luke 4:10-11 KJB).

The text actually says in full:

Num 23:19 KJB: "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

This is in response to Balak's request to curse Israel (after the flesh) by Balaam. However, God told Balaam to bless Israel, because:

Num 23:21: "He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them."

So God promised to bless them as long as they obeyed Him. The people were, up to this point obedient. God, then, as Balaam says, cannot lie, or go back on his word as mankind often does.

The text does not say that God could not (or would not) become a man later, for that was promised since Genesis 3:15,21 KJB. Even mother Eve (Genesis 3:20 KJB) expected Cain to be the Messiah promised (Genesis 4:1 KJB). The people knew about the promise of "Shiloh" (Genesis 49:10 KJB). Abraham and Isaac was even a type enacted in life:

Gen 22:8: "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."

God (JEHOVAH, the Ancient of Days) did indeed "provide himself a lamb", giving up His own eternal Son.

God (JEHOVAH jr., Jesus) did indeed "provide himself", offering himself, being the "Lamb".

The eternal Father would sacrifice His own eternal Son. Moses knew of this, and even wrote of it by inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

The whole argument that the text says that "God is not a man (full stop)" originated in Arian heresy, such as Islamic dawah-ists, WTS/JW, etc. It's simply a lie, fabricated and disingenuous with the text.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

for example the eggshell, yoke, and while or water: ice steam and liquid

Those are all false constructs, and do not and cannot represent JEHOVAH Elohiym (family JEHOVAH), and neither do they represent what the scripture (I just cited) teaches. Such constructs lower the mind to earthly things, rather than elevating the mind/heart of man to JEHOVAH Elohiym.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

inhabiting eternity

Inhabiting eternity doesn't mean that the Father is formless, shapeless, imageless, non corporeal gaseous aether. That would teach pantheism or even panentheism depending on the side of the coin one chooses (both of which are gross heretical error and destroys the Gospel).

It means that the Being/Person of God the Father always exists in each moment of time in what ever location he chooses to be at (Our Father which art in heaven, not our Father which art everywhere). God is omnipresent through his omniscience, see Psalms 139.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh (Romans 1:3, Isaiah 45:11).

There is a simplicity in Christ (2 Corinthians 11:3-4), that, if anyone will simply understand that He is one God and that the Father is a Spirit without flesh inhabiting eternity while Jesus is that same Spirit come in human flesh; that Jesus is the incarnation of God, and that God is the Father,

Then they may understand the simplicity that is in Christ.

That is all pentecostal Unitarian heresy. It doesn't even understand the unity that the one conveys properly.

 

[justbyfaith]

What I am preaching is no heresy but is the truth of holy scripture.

God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24);

And Jesus being God, is the same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4) albeit come in human flesh (John 1:1,14, 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

What I am preaching is no heresy but is the truth of holy scripture.

God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24);

And Jesus being God, is the same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4) albeit come in human flesh (John 1:1,14, 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

John 1:1 says, "God" (logos en o theos) was "with" the "God" (ton theon). That's two individuals, two persons, two completely distinct Beings, who are by their very nature, eternal and uncreated Deity.

God (Son) was with the God (Father), see vss 14,17-18 even from eternity (In the beginning).

Go back to Genesis 1.

God said - the Father speaking to the Son.

God made - the Son making all things according to the Father's will.

God saw - the Holy Ghost as eternal witness, watching the Father and the Son and also moving at their will, which is why we have Genesis and John.

Three individual Persons, three individual Beings, working together as perfect harmonious family JEHOVAH. The eternal heavenly Trio (not trinity).

 

[Gardenias]

Lord help us!
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost shower us with peace and love.

 

[TheLearner]

No; I don't think I'm purporting Sabeliianism.

I have set forth the doctrine of the Trinity with a specific emphasis on the Oneness of the Lord.

For I believe that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are in fact distinct from each other within the Godhead.

Thanks, I forgot that. Brother , friend

 

[TheLearner]

Matthew 22

29 Jesus answered, “You are so wrong! You don’t know what the Scriptures say. And you don’t know anything about God’s power. 30 At the time when people rise from death, there will be no marriage. People will not be married to each other. Everyone will be like the angels in heaven. 31 Surely you have read what God said to you about people rising from death. 32 God said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So they were not still dead, because he is the God only of living people.”


33 When the people heard this, they were amazed at Jesus’ teaching.

Which Command Is the Most Important?
34 The Pharisees learned that Jesus had made the Sadducees look so foolish that they stopped trying to argue with him. So the Pharisees had a meeting. 35 Then one of them, an expert in the Law of Moses, asked Jesus a question to test him. 36 He said, “Teacher, which command in the law is the most important?”

37 Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and most important command. 39 And the second command is like the first: ‘Love your neighbor[d] the same as you love yourself.’[e] 40 All of the law and the writings of the prophets take their meaning from these two commands.”

Is the Messiah David’s Son or David’s Lord?
41 So while the Pharisees were together,

" Among the religious difference between the two parties may be mentioned the denial on the part of the Sadducees of the resurrection, the immortality of the soul and the existence of angels (Matthew 22:23; Mark 12:18; Acts 23:8). " https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13323a.htm

"By immortality is ordinarily understood the doctrine that the human soul will survive death, continuing in the possession of an endless conscious existence. Together with the question of the existence of God, it forms the most momentous issue with which philosophy has to deal. It belongs primarily to rational or metaphysical psychology and the philosophy of religion, though it comes also into contact with other branches of philosophy and some of the natural sciences. "
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07687a.htm

Catholic Doctrine does in fact teach that God grants the immortality, it is not part of mankind's nature.
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm and many other sources

Development in Jewish sources:

"
The point of view from which the Ḥasidim regarded earthly existence was that man was born for another and a better world than this. Hence Abraham is told by God: "Depart from this vain world; leave the body and go to thy Lord among the good" (Testament of Abraham, i.). The immortality of martyrs was especially dwelt on by the Essenes (Josephus, "B. J." vii. 8, § 7; i. 33, § 2; comp. ii. 8, §§ 10, 14; idem, "Ant." xviii. 1, § 5). The souls of the righteous live like birds (See Jew. Encyc. iii. 219, s.v. Birds) in cages ("columbaria") guarded by angels (IV Esd. vii. 32, 95; Apoc. Baruch, xxi. 23, xxx. 2; comp. Shab. 152b). According to IV Esdras iv. 41 (comp. Yeb. 62a), they are kept in such cages (

) before entering upon earthly existence. The soul of martyrs also have a special place in heaven, according to Enoch (xxii. 12, cii. 4, cviii. 11 et seq.); whereas the Slavonic Enoch (xxiii. 5) teaches that "every soul was created for eternity before the foundation of the world." This Platonic doctrine of the preexistence of the soul (comp. Wisdom viii. 20; Philo, "De Gigantibus," §§ 3 et seq.; idem, "De Somniis," i., § 22) is taught also by the Rabbis, who spoke of a storehouse of the souls in the seventh heaven ("'Arabot"; Sifre, Deut. 344; Ḥag. 12b). In Gen. R. viii. the souls of the righteous are mentioned as counselors of God at the world's creation (comp. the Fravashi in "Farwardin Yast," in "S. B. E." xxiii. 179).

Upon the belief that the soul has a life of its own after death is based the following story: "Said Emperor Antoninus to Judah ha-Nasi, 'Both body and soul could plead guiltless on the day of judgment, as neither sinned without the other.' 'But then,' answered Judah, 'God reunites both for the judgment, holding them both responsible for the sin committed, just as in the fable the blind and the lame are punished in common for aiding each other in stealing the fruit of the orchard'" (Sanh. 91a; Lev. R. iv.). "There is neither eating nor drinking nor any sensual pleasure nor strife in the world to come, but the righteous with their crowns sit around the table of God, feeding upon the splendor of His majesty," said Rab (Ber. 17a), thus insisting that the nature of the soul when freed from the body is purely spiritual, while the common belief loved to dwell upon the banquet prepared for the pious in the world to come (see Eschatology; Leviathan). Hence the saying, "Prepare thyself in the vestibule that thou mayest be admitted into the triclinium"; that is, "Let this world be a preparation for the next" (Ab. iv. 16). The following sayings also indicate a pure conception of the soul's immortality: "The Prophets have spoken only concerning the Messianic future; but concerning the future state of the soul it is said: 'Men have not heard nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God beside Thee, what He hath prepared for him that waiteth for Him'" (Ber. 34b; comp. I Cor. ii. 9, Greek; Resh, "Agrapha," 1889, p. 154). "When man dies," says R. Meïr, "three sets of angels go forth to welcome him" (Num. R. xii.); this can only refer to the disembodied soul.

...

The Biblical statement "God created man in his own image" (Gen. i. 27) and the passage "May the soul . . . be bound in the bundle of life with the Lord thy God" (I Sam. xxv. 29, Hebr.), which, as a divine promise and a human supplication, filled the generations with comfort and hope (Zunz, "Z. G." p. 350), received a new meaning from this view of man's future; and the rabbinical saying, "The righteous rest not, either in this or in the future world, but go from strength to strength until they see God on Zion" (Ber. 64a. after Ps. lxxxiv. 8 [A. V.]), appeared to offer an endless vista to the hope of immortality."

 

[TheLearner]

"125. What is the “hell” into which Jesus descended?

632-637

This “hell” was different from the hell of the damned. It was the state of all those, righteous and evil, who died before Christ. With his soul united to his divine Person Jesus went down to the just in hell who were awaiting their Redeemer so they could enter at last into the vision of God. When he had conquered by his death both death and the devil “who has the power of death” (Hebrews 2:14), he freed the just who looked forward to the Redeemer and opened for them the gates of heaven."
https://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

"
208. What is the particular judgment?

1021-1022
1051

It is the judgment of immediate retribution which each one after death will receive from God in his immortal soul in accord with his faith and his works. This retribution consists in entrance into the happiness of heaven, immediately or after an appropriate purification, or entry into the eternal damnation of hell."
https://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

As you can see the soul becomes immortal from God.