Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

https://www.newadvent.org/utility/s...8:ifmbhlr-8x0&q=Trinity&sa=Search&cof=FORID:9
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/trinitarianism-in-the-early-church/

Ignatius of Antioch, AD 110
Our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Spirit. (Letter to the Ephesians 18)

Ignatius … to the church of God the Most High Father and his beloved Son, Jesus Christ, … I glorify God, even Jesus Christ, who has given you such wisdom … (Letter to the Smyrneans intro-ch. 1)

Anonymous, Letter to Diognetus, AD 80 - 130
This is he who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old, and yet who is ever born afresh in the hearts of the saints. This is he who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son. (Letter to Diognetus 11)

Justin Martyr, c. AD 150
"No one knows the Father but the Son, nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal him" [Matt. 21:27]. The Jews, accordingly, being are throughout of the opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spoke to Moses [in the burning bush], though the One who spoke to him was the Son of God. … They are justly charged, both by the Spirit of Prophecy and by Christ himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. Those who affirm that the Son is the Father are proven neither to be acquainted with the Father nor to know that the Father has a Son. The Son, being the first-begotten Word of God, is God. Of old he appeared in the shape of and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and other prophets, but now in the time of your reign [i.e., during the Roman empire] … he became man by a virgin … for the salvation of those who believe in him. (First Apology 63).

There is then brought to the president of the brethren [I think this refers to whoever is presiding at a meeting, but no one knows for certain] bread and a cup of wine mixed with water. He takes them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at his hands. (First Apology 65)

Leningrad Codex of the Hebrew Scriptures
Leningrad Codex of the Hebrew Scriptures
For all things with which we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit. (First Apology 67)

But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten, there is no name given. .. And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word who also was with him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and Godís ordering all things through him. (Second Apology 6)

Our Saviour Jesus Christ … being the Word of God, inseparable from Him in power, having assumed [the form of] man, who had been made in the image and likeness of God, restored to us the knowledge of the religion of our ancient forefathers. (Hortatory Address to the Greeks 38)

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts and Jacob in parable by the Holy Spirit. (Dialogue with Trypho 36)

[Trypho the Jew speaking to Justin about Christians in general] Trypho said, " … You utter many blasphemies. You're attempting to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud, became crucified, ascended up to heaven, will come again to earth, and ought to be worshiped!"

Then I answered, "I know that, as the word of God says, this great wisdom of God, the Maker of all things, and the Almighty, is hidden from you." (Dialogue with Trypho 38)

In the fourty-fourth Psalm [LXX, in our Masoretic text, it's the 45th], these words are … referred to Christ: "My heart has brought forth a good Word" [v. 1, considered by the early Christians to be a reference to the birth of the Son/Word in eternity past]. (Dialogue with Trypho 38)

God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: "If I shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and review them. The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting He established me in the beginning, before He had made the earth, and before He had made the deeps, before the springs of the waters had issued forth, before the mountains had been established ... [Prov. 8:22ff]. (Dialogue with Trypho 61)

Since we find it recorded in the memoirs of the apostles that he is the Son of God, and since we call him the Son, we have understood that he proceeded before all creatures from the Father by his power and his will ... and that he became man by the virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same way in which it derived its origin. (Dialogue with Trypho 100)

For I have already proved that he was the only-begotten of the Father in everything, being begotten, in a unique way, Logos and Power by him, and afterwards become man through the virgin, as we have learned from the memoirs [of the apostles]. (Dialogue with Trypho 105)

Hermas, AD 100 - 160
"First of all, sir," I said, "Explain to me what is the meaning of the rock and the gate?"
"This rock," he answered, "and this gate are the Son of God."
"How, sir?" I said. "The rock is old, and the gate is new."
"Listen," he said, "and understand, O ignorant man. The Son of God is older than all his creatures, so that he was a fellow counselor with the Father in his work of creation. For this reason he is old."
"And why is the gate new, sir?" I said.
"Because," he answered, "he became manifest in the last days of the dispensation. For this reason the gate was made new, that they who are to be saved by it might enter into the kingdom of God." (Shepherd of Hermas III:9:12)

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

Tatian, c. AD 165
God was in the beginning, but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. For the Lord of the universe … since no creature was yet in existence, was alone. But, since he is all power, himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with him were all things. With him, by Logos-power, the Logos Himself … subsists. By His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos … becomes the first-begotten work of the Father.

Him we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation, not by abscission [cutting off]. For what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation … does not render him deficient from whom it is taken.

For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Logos, coming forth from the Logos-power of the Father, has not divested [the Father] of the Logos-power.

I myself, for instance, talk, and you hear. Yet I certainly do not become destitute of speech by the transmission of speech, but by the utterance of my voice I endeavour to reduce to order the unarranged matter in your minds. And as the Logos, begotten in the beginning, begat in turn our world, having first created for himself the necessary matter, so also I, in imitation of the Logos, being born again, and having become possessed of the truth, am trying to reduce to order the confused matter which is kindred with myself. (Address to the Greeks 5)

Theophilus, AD 168
You will say ... to me: "You said that God cannot to be contained in one place; how do you now say that he walked in Paradise?"

Hear what I say: The God and Father of all truly cannot be contained, and is not found, in a place ... but his Word, through whom he made all things, being his power and his wisdom, assuming the person of the Father and Lord of all, went to the garden in the person of God and conversed with Adam.

For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice. What else is this voice but the Word of God, who is also his Son? [He is] not [a son] in the way the poets and writers of myths speak of sons of gods begotten from intercourse, but as truth expounds, the Word, who always exists, residing within the heart of God. For before anything came into being [God] had him as a counselor, being his own mind and thought.

But when God wished to make all that he determined, he begot this Word, uttered, the firstborn of all creation, not himself being emptied of the Word [or Reason], but having begotten Reason, and always conversing with his Reason.

And this is what the holy writings teach us, as well as all the Spirit-bearing men, one of whom, John, says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God" [Jn. 1:1], showing that at first God was alone, and the Word in him. Then he says, "The Word was God; all things came into existence through him, and apart from him not one thing came into existence."

The Word, then, being God, and being naturally produced from God, then whenever the Father of the universe wills, he sends him anywhere, and he is both heard and seen, being sent by Him, and is found in a place. (To Autolycus II:22)

Hermas, c. AD 170
I wish to explain to you what the Holy Spirit that spoke with you in the form of the Church showed you, for that Spirit is the Son of God. (Shepherd of Hermas. Similitude 9th. Ch. 1.)

Athenagoras, c. AD 177
We acknowledge ... a Son of God. Don't let anyone think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. ... The Son of God is the Logos of the Father ... He is the first product of the Father, not as though he was being brought into existence, for from the beginning God, who is the eternal Mind, had the Logos in himself. (A Plea for the Christians 10)

What then? Because the multitude, who cannot distinguish between matter and God, or see how great is the interval which lies between them, pray to idols made of matter, are we therefore, who do distinguish and separate the uncreated and the created, that which is and that which is not, that which is apprehended by the understanding and that which is perceived by the senses, and who give the fitting name to each of them,—are we to come and worship images? If, indeed, matter and God are the same, two names for one thing, then certainly, in not regarding stocks and stones, gold and silver, as gods, we are guilty of impiety. But if they are at the greatest possible remove from one another—as far asunder as the artist and the materials of his art—why are we called to account? (A Plea for the Christians 15)

We acknowledge a God, and a Son, his Logos, and a Holy Spirit, united in essence—the Father, the Son, the Spirit—because the Son is the Intelligence, Reason, and Wisdom of the Father, and the Spirit an effluence, as light from fire. (A Plea for the Christians 24)

Irenaeus, AD 183 - 186
Learn then, foolish men [i.e., the gnostics], that Jesus who suffered for us, and who dwelt among us, is himself the Word of God. … He, the only-begotten Son of the only God, who, according to the good pleasure of the Father, became flesh for the sake of men. (Against Heresies I:9:3)

[The Gospel] according to John relates [Jesus Christ's] original, effectual, and glorious generation from the Father, thus declaring, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" [John 1:1]. (Against Heresies III:11:8)

How is Christ the end of the Law if he is not also the final cause of it? For he who has brought in the end himself also made the beginning. And it is he who says to Moses, "I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and I have come down to deliver them" [Ex. 3:7-8]. It was customary from the beginning for the Word of God to ascend and descend for the purpose of saving those who were in affliction. (Against Heresies IV:12:4)

Clement of Alexandria, c. AD 190
Though despised as to appearance, [Jesus] was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word; he that is truly most apparently Deity. He is made equal to the Lord of the universe because he was his Son, and the Word was in God. (Exhortation to the Heathen 10)

The Lord is the hierophant [interpreter of sacred mysteries] and seals while illuminating him who is initiated. He presents to the Father him who believes to be kept safe for ever. Such are the reveries of my mysteries. If it is your wish, be also initiated, and you shall join the choir along with angels around the unbegotten and indestructible and the only true God, the Word of God, raising the hymn with us. This Jesus, who is eternal, the one great High Priest of the one God, and of His Father, prays for and exhorts men. (Exhortation to the Heathen 12)

I call on the whole race of men, whose Creator I am, by the will of the Father. Come to Me, that you may be put in your due rank under the one God and the one Word of God … for to you of all mortals I grant the enjoyment of immortality. For I want to … confer on you both the Word and the knowledge of God, my complete self. This am I, this God wills … this [is] the harmony of the Father; this is the Son, this is Christ, this the Word of God, the arm of the Lord, the power of the universe, the will of the Father … I desire to restore you according to the original model, that you may become also like me. (Exhortation to the Heathen 12)

It cannot be said that the Lord is not willing to save humanity because of ignorance, as though he does not know how each on is to be cared for. Ignorance does nat apply to the God who, before the foundation of the world, was the Counselor of the Father. For he was the Wisdom in which the Sovereign God delighted [Prov. 8:30]. The Son is the power of God. He is the Father's most ancient Word before the production of all things and his Wisdom. He is then properly called the Teacher of the beings he formed. Nor does he ever abandon the care of mankind by being distracted by pleasure, not the One who assumed flesh—which by nature is susceptible to suffering—and trained it to such an extent that it could not suffer. (Miscellanies VII:2

We are therefore to love him equally with God. And he loves Christ Jesus who does his will and keeps his commandments. (Who Is the Rich Man Who Shall Be Saved 29)

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

Tertullian, c. AD 200
We ... believe that there is one only God—but under the following dispensation, or oikonomia [Tertullian quotes the Greek word for "order," "dispensation," or "arrangement" here], as it is called—that this one only God has also a Son, his Word, who proceeded from himself, by whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. ...

That this rule of faith has come down to us from the beginning of the Gospel ... will be apparent both from the lateness of date which marks all heresies and also from the absolutely novel character of our new-fangled Praxeas. (Against Praxeas 2)

But as for me, who derive the Son from no other source but from the substance of the Father ... how can I possibly be destroying the Monarchy from the faith [i.e., removing the singular rule of God as modalists accused trinitarians of doing], when I preserve it in the Son just as it was committed to him by the Father. (Against Praxeas 4, emphasis mine because of its importance to the Nicene Creed)

Before all things God was alone … He was alone because there was nothing external to him except himself. Yet even then he was not alone,for he had with him that which he possessed in himself, that is to say, his own Reason. [Which is how Tertullian translates the Greek "Logos"] (Against Praxeas 5)

God is rational, and Reason was first in him … This Reason was his own thought, which the Greeks call Logos, by which term we also designate Word [Tertullian is writing in Latin and used the word "Sermo"], and therefore it is now usual with our people, owing to the simple translation of [Logos] to say that the Word was in the beginning with God, even though it would be more suitable to regard Reason as the more ancient. God did not have Word from the beginning, but he had Reason even before the beginning. Word itself consists of Reason, which it thus proves to have been the first to exist as being its own substance. Not that this distinction is of any practical importance.

[Are you looking for a meaning to all that? The basic premise is that the Logos existed in the beginning with God, and Tertullian has some philosophical reasons for wanting to translate that as Reason rather than Word, even though Word is more common] (Against Praxeas 5)

Although God had not sent out his Word, he still had him within himself … as he silently planned and arranged within himself everything which he was afterwards to utter through his Word. (Against Praxeas 5)

Observe, then, that when you are silently conversing with yourself, this very process is carried on within you by your reason, which meets you with a word at every movement of your thought … Whatever you think, there is a word … You must speak it in your mind …

Thus, in a certain sense, the word is a second person within you, through which in thinking you utter speech … The word is itself a different thing from yourself. Now how much more fully is all this transacted in God, whose image and likeness you are? (Against Praxeas 5)

This power and disposition of the Divine Intelligence is also set forth in the Scriptures under the name of Wisdom; for what can be better entitled to the name of Wisdom than the Reason or the Word of God?† Listen therefore to Wisdom herself, constituted in the character of a Second Person: "At the first the Lord created me as the beginning of his ways … " that is to say, he created and generated me in his own intelligence. Then, again, observe the distinction between them implied in the companionship of Wisdom with the Lord [referencing the Father]. "When he prepared the heaven," says Wisdom, "I was present with him." (Against Praxeas 6)

Now, as soon as it pleased God to put forth into their respective substances and forms the things which he had planned and ordered within himself, in conjunction with his Wisdomís Reason and Word, he first put forth the Word himself … in order that all things might be made through him through whom they had been planned and disposed. (Against Praxeas 6)

At that time the Word assumes his own form and glorious garb, his own sound and vocal utterance, when God says, "Let there be light." This is the perfect nativity of the Word, when he proceeds forth from God … "The Lord created me as the beginning of His ways;" then afterward begotten, to carry all into effect: "When he prepared the heaven, I was present with him." In this way he makes him equal to him, for by proceeding from himself he became his first-begotten Son … and His only-begotten also, because alone begotten of God, in a way peculiar to himself, from the womb of his own heart, just as the Father himself testifies: "My heart," says he, "has emitted my most excellent Word." (Against Praxeas 7)

He became the Son of God and was begotten when he proceeded forth from him. … But you [Praxeas, a heretic who held to modalism ("Jesus only")] will not allow him to be really a substantive being, by having a substance of his own in such a way that he may be regarded as an objective thing and a person, and so be able to make two, the Father and the Son, God and the Word.

For you will say, what is a word but a voice and sound of the mouth … but for the rest a sort of void, empty, and incorporeal thing. I, on the contrary, contend that nothing empty and void could have come forth from God … for all things which were made through him, he made. … How could he who is empty have made things which are solid, and he who is void have made things which are full, and he who is incorporeal have made things which have body? … Is that Word of God, then, a void and empty thing, which is called the Son, who is himself designated God? "The Word was with God, and the Word was God" [Jn. 1:1] … This for certain is he "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" [Php. 2:6].

In what form of God? Of course he means in some form, not in none. For who will deny that God is a body even though "God is Spirit" [Jn. 4:24] For Spirit has a bodily substance of its own kind, in its own form. … Whatever, therefore, was the substance of the Word that I designate a Person, I claim for it the name of Son; and while I recognize the Son, I assert his distinction as second to the Father. (Against Praxeas 7)

[Written against modalism or "Jesus only"] If you want me to believe him to be both the Father and the Son, show me some other passage where it is declared, "The Lord said to himself, ‘I am my own Son, today have I begotten myself.’" … On your side, however, you must make Him out to be a liar, an impostor, and a tamperer with his word, if, when he was himself a Son to himself, he assigned the part of his Son to be played by another. All the Scriptures attest the clear existence of—and distinction [of persons] in—the Trinity, and indeed furnish us with our Rule of faith. He who speaks, and he of whom he speaks and to whom he speaks, cannot possibly seem to be one and the same. (Against Praxeas 11)

I shall follow the apostle [Paul], so that if the Father and the Son are alike to be invoked, I shall call the Father "God" and invoke Jesus Christ as "Lord."

But when Christ alone [is invoked], I shall be able to call him "God." As the same apostle says, "Of whom is Christ, who is over all, God blessed forever" [Rom. 9:5].

For I should give the name of "sun" even to a sunbeam, considered by itself. But if I were mentioning the sun from which the ray emanates, I would certainly withdraw the name of sun from the mere beam. For although I do not make two suns, still I shall reckon both the sun and its ray to be as much two things—and two forms of one undivided substance—as God and his Word, as the Father and the Son. (Against Praxeas 13)

"No one has seen God at any time" [1 Jn. 4:12]. What God does he mean? The Word? But he [the Holy Spirit, through the Scriptures] has already said, "Him we have seen and heard, and our hands have handled, the Word of Life" [1 Jn. 1:1-2]. Well, what God does he mean? It is of course the Father, with whom was the Word, the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, and has revealed him himself. ... Moreover, he expressly called Christ God, saying, "Of whom are the fathers, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever" [Rom. 9:5]. He shows us also that the Son of God, who is the Word of God, is visible, because he who became flesh was called Christ. Of the Father, however, he says to Timothy, "Whom none among men has seen, nor indeed can see," and he accumulates the description in still ampler terms, "Who alone has immortality and dwells in the light that no one can approach" [1 Tim. 6:16]. It was of him, too, that he said in a previous passage, "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to the only God" [1 Tim. 1:17], so that we might apply the contrary qualities to the Son himself—mortality, accessibility—of whom the apostle testifies that "He died according to the Scriptures" [1 Cor. 15:3]and that "He was seen by himself last of all" [1 Cor. 15:8]. This happened, of course, by means of the light that was accessible, although it was not without imperiling his sight that he experienced that light [Acts 22:11] (Against Praxeas 15)

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

Origen, c. AD 230
Since many saints participate in the Holy Spirit, he cannot therefore be understood to be a body, which being divided into corporeal parts, is partaken of by each one of the saints. Instead, he is manifestly a sanctifying power, in which all are said to have a share who have deserved to be sanctified by his grace. (De Principiis I:1:3)

The Holy Spirit is an intellectual existence and subsists and exists in a unique manner. (De Principiis I:1:3)

Hoving refuted, then, as well as we could, every notion which might suggest that we were to think of God as in any degree corporeal, we go on to say that, according to strict truth, God is incomprehensible and incapable of being measured. (De Principiis I:1:5)

God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as an uncompounded intellectual nature. (De Principiis I:1:6)

Whatever … is a porperty of bodies cannot be said of either the Father or the Son, but what belongs to the nature of Deity is common to the Father and the Son. … Because, then, neither seeing nor being seen can be properly applied to an incorporeal and invisible nature, neither is the Father, in the Gospel, said to be seen by the Son nor the Son by the Father, but the One is said to be known by the Other. (De Principiis I:1:8)

By this divine sense, therefore, not of the eyes but of a pure heart, which is the mind, God may be seen by those who are worthy. For you will certainly find in all the Scriptures, both old and new, the term "heart" repeatedly used instead of "mind." (De Principiis I:1:9)

In the first place, we must note that the nature of that deity which is in Christ in respect to his being the only-begotten Son of God is one thing, and that human nature which he assumed in these last times for the purposes of the dispensation is another. (De Principiis I:2:1)

...

Hippolytus, c. AD 225
These things then, brothers, are declared by the Scriptures. And the blessed John, in the testimony of his Gospel, gives us an account of this economy [the "order" or "plan"] and acknowledges this Word as God, when he says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" [Jn. 1:1]. If, then, the Word was with God, and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two Persons however, and of a third economy, viz., the grace of the Holy Spirit. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is revealed, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One. It is the Father who commands, and the Son who obeys, and the Holy Spirit who gives understanding: the Father who is above all, and the Son who is through all, and the Holy Spirit who is in all. And we cannot otherwise think of one God, but by believing in truth in Father and Son and Holy Spirit. ... The Father’s Word, therefore, knowing the economy and the will of the Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way than this, gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: "Go, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" [Matt. 28:19]. And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. ("Against the Heresy of One Noetus." par. 14. In Ante-Nicene Fathers. Vol. V. American Ed. Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1885.)

Athanasius, AD 325 - 370
We believe in one Unbegotten God, Father Almighty, maker of all things both visible and invisible, that hath His being from Himself. And in one Only-begotten Word, Wisdom, Son, begotten of the Father without beginning and eternally ... We believe, likewise, also in the Holy Spirit that searcheth all things, even the deep things of God ... But just as a river, produced from a well, is not separate, and yet there are in fact two visible objects and two names. For neither is the Father the Son, nor the Son the Father. For the Father is Father of the Son, and the Son, Son of the Father. For like as the well is not a river, nor the river a well, but both are one and the same water which is conveyed in a channel from the well to the river, so the Father’s deity passes into the Son without flow and without division. For the Lord says, 'I came out from the Father and am come' (Joh. xvi. 28). But He is ever with the Father, for He is in the bosom of the Father, nor was ever the bosom of the Father void of the deity of the Son. ... But we do not regard God the Creator of all, the Son of God, as a creature, or thing made, or as made out of nothing, for He is truly existent from Him who exists, alone existing from Him who alone exists, in as much as the like glory and power was eternally and conjointly begotten of the Father. ("Statement of Faith" 1-2. Found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Series 2, Vol. 204.)

For His Only-begotten Son might, ye Arians, be called 'Father' by His Father, yet not in the sense in which you in your error might perhaps understand it, but (while Son of the Father that begat Him) 'Father of the coming age' (Isa. ix. 6, LXX). For it is necessary not to leave any of your surmises open to you. Well then, He says by the prophet, 'A Son is born and given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Angel of Great Counsel, mighty God, Ruler, Father of the coming age (Isa. ix. 6). The Only-begotten Son of God, then, is at once Father of the coming age, and mighty God, and Ruler. And it is shewn clearly that all things whatsoever the Father hath are His, and that as the Father gives life, the Son likewise is able to quicken whom He will. For 'the dead,' He says, shall hear the voice of the Son, and shall live' (cf. John v. 25), and the will and desire of Father and Son is one, since their nature also is one and indivisible. And the Arians torture themselves to no purpose, from not understanding the saying of our Saviour, 'All things whatsoever the Father hath are Mine.' For from this passage at once the delusion of Sabellius can be upset, and it will expose the folly of our modern Jews. ("On Luke X. 22." 5. As found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Series 2. Vol. 204.)

This enables us to see, brethren, that they of Nicaea breathe the spirit of Scripture, in that God says in Exodus, "I am that I am" [Ex. 3:14]; and through Jeremiah, "Who is in his substance and has seen his word" [Jer. 23:18, LXX]; and just below, "if they had stood in my subsistence and heard my words" [Jer. 23:22, LXX]. Now subsistence is essence, and means nothing else but very being, which Jeremiah calls existence in the words, "and they heard not the voice of existence" [Jer. 9:10, LXX]. For subsistence, and essence, is existence: for it is, or in other words exists. This Paul also perceiving wrote to the Hebrews, "who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his subsistence." (Synodal Letter to the Bishops of Africa 4)

If "through him all things were made" [Jn. 1:3], and he too is a creature, he would be the creator of himself! And how can what is being created create? Or he that is creating be created? (Synodal Letter to the Bishops of Africa 4)

But the bishops [at the Council of Nicea] ... expressed the sense of the words "of God" more plainly by writing that the Son is of the essence [or "substance"] of God, so that whereas the Creatures, since they do not exist of themselves without a cause, but have a beginning of their existence, are said to be "of God" [as well], the Son alone might be deemed proper to the essence of the Father. For this is peculiar to one who is only-begotten and true Word in relation to a Father, and this was the reason why the words "of the substance" were adopted [in the Nicene Creed]. (Synodal Letter to the Bishops of Africa 5)

https://www.christian-history.org/trinity-quotes.html

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

Clement of Alexandria a.d. 153–217
O mystic marvel! The universal Father is one, and one the universal Word; and the Holy Spirit is one and the same everywhere, . . .
The Instructor. Book I Chapter VI

https://apostles-creed.org/confessi...theology/early-church-fathers-quotes-trinity/

There are many more historical quotes to show that the early church beleived in the Trinity well before Nicea 325 AD.

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

Cyprian a.d. 200–258
Finally, when, after the resurrection, the apostles are sent by the Lord to the heathens, they are bidden to baptize the Gentiles “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” How, then, do some say, that a Gentile baptized without, outside the Church, yea, and in opposition to the Church, so that it be only in the name of Jesus Christ, everywhere, and in whatever manner, can obtain remission of sin, when Christ Himself commands the heathen to be baptized in the full and united Trinity?
Epistle LXXII.5.18

Novatian a.d. 210–280
And now, indeed, concerning the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, let it be sufficient to have briefly said thus much, and to have laid down these points concisely, without carrying them out in a lengthened argument. For they could be presented more diffusely and continued in a more expanded disputation, since the whole of the Old and New Testaments might be adduced in testimony that thus the true faith stands. But because heretics, ever struggling against the truth, are accustomed to prolong the controversy of pure tradition and Catholic faith, being offended against Christ; because He is, moreover, asserted to be God by the Scriptures also, and this is believed to be so by us; we must rightly—that every heretical calumny may be removed from our faith—contend, concerning the fact that Christ is God also, in such a way as that it may not militate against the truth of Scripture; nor yet against our faith, how there is declared to be one God by the Scriptures, and how it is held and believed by us.
A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity. Chapter XXX.

Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria a.d. 273–326
Therefore, when the holy prophets, and all, as I have said, who righteously and justly walked in the law of the Lord, together with the entire people, celebrated a typical and shadowy Passover, the Creator and Lord of every visible and invisible creature, the only-begotten Son, and the Word co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and of the same substance with them, according to His divine nature, our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, . .
Epistles on the Arian Heresy And the Deposition of Arius. Chapter I.7

Therefore to the unbegotten Father, indeed, we ought to preserve His proper dignity, in confessing that no one is the cause of His being; but to the Son must be allotted His fitting honour, in assigning to Him, as we have said, a generation from the Father without beginning, and allotting adoration to Him, so as only piously and properly to use the words, “He was,” and “always,” and “before all worlds,” with respect to Him; by no means rejecting His Godhead, but ascribing to Him a similitude which exactly answers in every respect to the Image and Exemplar of the Father. But we must say that to the Father alone belongs the property of being unbegotten, for the Saviour Himself said, “My Father is greater than I.” And besides the pious opinion concerning the Father and the Son, we confess to one Holy Spirit, as the divine Scriptures teach us; who hath inaugurated both the holy men of the Old Testament, and the divine teachers of that which is called the New.
Epistles on the Arian Heresy And the Deposition of Arius. Chapter I.12

Augustine of Hippo a.d. 354–430
Those holy angels come to the knowledge of God not by audible words, but by the presence to their souls of immutable truth, i.e., of the only-begotten Word of God; and they know this Word Himself, and the Father, and their Holy Spirit, and that this Trinity is indivisible, and that the three persons of it are one substance, and that there are not three Gods but one God; and this they so know that it is better understood by them than we are by ourselves.
Augustine The City of God Book 11 Chapter 29

The true objects of enjoyment, then, are the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, who are at the same time the Trinity, one Being, supreme above all, and common to all who enjoy Him, if He is an object, and not rather the cause of all objects, or indeed even if He is the cause of all. For it is not easy to find a name that will suitably express so great excellence, unless it is better to speak in this way: The Trinity, one God, of whom are all things, through whom are all things, in whom are all things. Thus the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and each of these by Himself, is God, and at the same time they are all one God; and each of them by Himself is a complete substance, and yet they are all one substance. The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son: but the Father is only Father, the Son is only Son, and the Holy Spirit is only Holy Spirit. To all three belong the same eternity, the same unchangeableness, the same majesty, the same power. In the Father is unity, in the Son equality, in the Holy Spirit the harmony of unity and equality; and these three attributes are all one because of the Father, all equal because of the Son, and all harmonious because of the Holy Spirit.
On Christian Doctrine Book I. Chapter 5.5

Wherefore, our Lord God helping, we will undertake to render, as far as we are able, that very account which they so importunately demand: viz., that the Trinity is the one and only and true God, and also how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are rightly said, believed, understood, to be of one and the same substance or essence; in such wise that they may not fancy themselves mocked by excuses on our part, but may find by actual trial, both that the highest good is that which is discerned by the most purified minds, and that for this reason it cannot be discerned or understood by themselves, because the eye of the human mind, being weak, is dazzled in that so transcendent light, unless it be invigorated by the nourishment of the righteousness of faith.
On the Trinity Book I. Chapter 2.4

And I would make this pious and safe agreement, in the presence of our Lord God, with all who read my writings, as well in all other cases as, above all, in the case of those which inquire into the unity of the Trinity, of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; because in no other subject is error more dangerous, or inquiry more laborious, or the discovery of truth more profitable.
On the Trinity Book I. Chapter 3.5

All those Catholic expounders of the divine Scriptures, both Old and New, whom I have been able to read, who have written before me concerning the Trinity, Who is God, have purposed to teach, according to the Scriptures, this doctrine, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit intimate a divine unity of one and the same substance in an indivisible equality; and therefore that they are not three Gods, but one God: although the Father hath begotten the Son, and so He who is the Father is not the Son; and the Son is begotten by the Father, and so He who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, Himself also co-equal with the Father and the Son, and pertaining to the unity of the Trinity. Yet not that this Trinity was born of the Virgin Mary, and crucified under Pontius Pilate, and buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven, but only the Son. Nor, again, that this Trinity descended in the form of a dove upon Jesus when He was baptized; nor that, on the day of Pentecost, after the ascension of the Lord, when “there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind,” the same Trinity “sat upon each of them with cloven tongues like as of fire,” but only the Holy Spirit. Nor yet that this Trinity said from heaven, “Thou art my Son,” whether when He was baptized by John, or when the three disciples were with Him in the mount, or when the voice sounded, saying, “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again;” but that it was a word of the Father only, spoken to the Son; although the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as they are indivisible, so work indivisibly. This is also my faith, since it is the Catholic faith.
On the Trinity Book I. Chapter 4.7

Some persons, however, find a difficulty in this faith; when they hear that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God, and yet that this Trinity is not three Gods, but one God; and they ask how they are to understand this: especially when it is said that the Trinity works indivisibly in everything that God works, and yet that a certain voice of the Father spoke, which is not the voice of the Son; and that none except the Son was born in the flesh, and suffered, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; and that none except the Holy Spirit came in the form of a dove. They wish to understand how the Trinity uttered that voice which was only of the Father; and how the same Trinity created that flesh in which the Son only was born of the Virgin; and how the very same Trinity itself wrought that form of a dove, in which the Holy Spirit only appeared. Yet, otherwise, the Trinity does not work indivisibly, but the Father does some things, the Son other things, and the Holy Spirit yet others: or else, if they do some things together, some severally, then the Trinity is not indivisible. It is a difficulty, too, to them, in what manner the Holy Spirit is in the Trinity, whom neither the Father nor the Son, nor both, have begotten, although He is the Spirit both of the Father and of the Son.
On the Trinity Book I. Chapter 5.8.

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

RizenPhoenix said:

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

Acts 13:2

King James Version

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

I is ego, the hallmark of personhood.

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

Revelation 1:8
King James Version
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

We all know that Jesus is the one to come.

RizenPhoenix · Feb 18, 2022

CS1 said:

The greatest farce in the whole Trinity Doctrine is that is God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are one in the same then: 1) you're telling me God/Jesus/HS died, who resurrected them because if one dies, they all die, 2) If they all three are one person then Mary carried God in her stomach which would be utterly impossible for such a thing to happen. God is greater in dynamic energy than the Sun if he came even close to the Earth, we would all go up in flames in an instant! 3) If God/Jesus/HS are one then who was Jesus talking to when he was dying, himself because he is God/Jesus/HS? You cannot separate them when it is convenient either they are one in the 3 godheads, or they are not. First, you need to know what the Trinity Doctrine teaches and then you would know that it doesn't measure up. 4) If I am the Father, how can I be the Son also? 5) John 5:19-20 Jesus clearly tells you he can't do a thing without his Father approves it first. John 17:1-5, where is the person HS in this passage, nowhere because the HS is not a person. Trinitarians pray for TRUTH!

TMS · Feb 18, 2022

Jesus is God..

In all my study of the Godhead the thing that really helped is that we as humans will never fully comprehend the nature of God.
Respect that God is so far beyond our understanding (Yet He has made himself known to us in Jesus), when you try to understand The Godhead

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

Jude 9
King James Version
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Matthew 17:18-20
King James Version
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Luke 4:35
New King James Version
35 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, [a]“Be quiet, and come out of him!” And when the demon had thrown him in their midst, it came out of him and did not hurt him.

Mark 9:25
When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

Luke 4:35
And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not.

Luke 9:42
And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.

Luke 18:39
And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.

RizenPhoenix · Feb 18, 2022

TheLearner said:

The Holy Spirit is a channel that God uses to talk to us, teach us and direct us. It's like a telepathic utterance like God is sending you a message. The telephone rings, you pick it up, and you hear the voice of someone you know through the telephone. That does not make the telephone a person, but a channel by which communication is received. The Holy Spirit is God's force that he uses the same way we use a telephone.

Gardenias · Feb 18, 2022

I FULLY BELIEVE and hold to the Triune doctrine as God our creator!

1 John 5:6-12
Jesus God's ONLY BEGOTTEN son was born of flesh and Spirit,fulfilling prophecy about our redeemer. V6

These passages talk about how there are three and ALL bear record of the other and agree.v . 7/8

If we receive the witness of men,GOD IS GREATER,for his witness is of his son.( His baptism in the book of John describes all three in different forms but one GOD. He has said I am the one GOD and there were none others.v.9 Tells us if we BELIEVE NOT God about his son then we are calling God a liar.

This record is how we are able to be redeemed and have the promise of eternal life in Jesus,God's son. V.10-12..........
LIFE AND DEATH ARE AT THE DOOR,ACCEPTING GOD IN HIS FULNESS,FATHER,SON AND HOLY SPIRIT IS ETERNAL LIFE. REJECTING JESUS,REFUSING GOD IS ACCEPTING DEATH.

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

justbyfaith said:

"
VII. The Holy Spirit Is God
A. Equated with God: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18
B. Has the incommunicable attributes of God
1. Eternal: Heb. 9:14
2. Omnipresent: Psa. 139:7
3. Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11
C. Involved in all the works of God
1. Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30
2. Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35
3. Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11
4. Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27
D. Is a person
1. Has a name:
: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might
be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and
the Son, it must be used of a person
2. Is the "Helper"
a. Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1;
note also that "Helper" (paraklêtos) was used in
Greek always or almost always of persons.
b. Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26.
c. Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27.
d. Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not
on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify
Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14.
3. Is the Holy Spirit, in contrast to unholy spirits: Mark 3:22-30, cf.
Matt. 12:32; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4:6.
4. Speaks, is quoted as speaking: John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 8:29;
10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 16:6; 20:23; 21:11: 28:25-27; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb.
3:7-11; 10:15-17; 1 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13,22.
5. Can be lied to: Acts 5:3
6. Can make decisions, judgments: Acts 15:28
7. Intercedes for Christians with the Father: Rom. 8:26
8. "Impersonal" language used of the Spirit paralled by language
used of other persons
a. The Holy Spirit as fire: Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16; cf.
Ex. 3:2-4; Deut. 4:24; 9:3; Heb. 12:29
b. The Holy Spirit poured out: Acts 2:17, 33; cf. Isa 53:12; Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6
c. Being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:18, etc.;
cf. Eph. 3:17, 19; 14:10

"
https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

justbyfaith said:

Who was Johannes Greber?
Johannes Greber was a Catholic priest turned spiritist who translated the New Testament with the help of God’s “spirits.” He used his wife, who was a spirit-medium, to channel spirits to help translate difficult verses in the bible. His experiences with spirits and their communications with him are related in his book Communication with the Spirit World, published in 1932. With this information, let’s look at each reference to Greber in the Watchtower publications.

33 Is such official Catholic teaching as the above an impenetrable defense against the invasion of spiritism? No! It is an invitation to spiritism, and the conditions in Roman Catholic lands, such as Peru, Costa Rica, Cuba and Haiti, show Roman Catholicism to be no bulwark against this spreading peril. In such lands the Catholic people, even up to 90 per cent, mix spiritism or voodooism right in with Roman Catholicism, practicing both at the same time with no objection or penalty by the priests. It comes as no surprise that one Johannes Greber, a former Catholic clergyman, has become a spiritualist and has published the book entitled “Communication with the Spirit World, Its laws and Its Purpose.” (1932, Macoy Publishing Company, New York) In its Foreword he makes the typical misstatement: “The most significant spiritualistic book is the Bible; for its principal contents hinge upon the messages of the beyond to those existing in the present.”
– The Watchtower 1955 October 1 p. 603 par. 33 Part 3—What Do the Scriptures Say About “Survival After Death”?

Here, Watchtower fully exposes who Johannes Greber was.

10 Says Johannes Greber in the introduction of his translation of The New Testament, copyrighted in 1937: “I myself was a Catholic priest, and until I was forty-eight years old had never as much as believed in the possibility of communicating with the world of God’s spirits. The day came, however, when I involuntarily took my first step toward such communication, and experienced things that shook me to the depths of my soul. . . . My experiences are related in a book that has appeared in both German and English and bears the title, Communication with the Spirit-World: Its Laws and Its Purpose.” (Page 15, ¶ 2, 3) In keeping with his Roman Catholic extraction Greber’s translation is bound with a gold-leaf cross on its stiff front cover. In the Foreword of his aforementioned book ex-priest Greber says: “The most significant spiritualistic book is the Bible.” Under this impression Greber endeavors to make his New Testament translation read very spiritualistic.
– The Watchtower 1956 February 15 pp. 110-111 pars. 10-11 Triumphing over Wicked Spirit Forces

Again, another exposé on who Greber was.

5 But most controversial of all is the following reading of John 1:1, 2: “The Word was in the beginning, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This Word was in the beginning with God.” This reading is found in The New Testament in An Improved Version, published in London, England, in 1808. Similar is the reading by a former Roman Catholic priest: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This was with God in the beginning. Everything came into being through the Word, and without it nothing created sprang into existence.” (John 1:1-3)* Alongside that reading with its much-debated expression “a god” may be placed the reading found in The Four Gospels—A New Translation, by Professor Charles Cutler Torrey, second edition of 1947, namely: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god. When he was in the beginning with God all things were created through him; without him came no created thing into being.” (John 1:1-3) Note that what the Word is said to be is spelled without a capital initial letter, namely, “god.”
Footnote: The New Testament—A New Translation and Explanation Based on the Oldest Manuscripts, by Johannes Greber (a translation from German into English), edition of 1937, the front cover of this bound translation being stamped with a golden cross.
– The Watchtower 1962 September 15 p. 554 par. 5 “The Word”—Who Is He? According to John

This is the first instance where Watchtower used Greber in their publications in anything other than a negative tone. I find it interesting that the first time Greber was used to support Watchtower teachings was in a tiny footnote. Keep in mind that just 7 years previously, the Watchtower exposed who Greber was! They even admitted that it was under this impression, channeling spirits, that he endeavored to make his translation very spiritualistic.

Using Greber To Support Watchtower Teachings
Tombs Opened at Jesus Death
The translation by Johannes Greber (1937) of these verses reads as follows: “Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.”
– Aid to Bible Understanding 1971, p. 1134

The Word
A translation by a former Roman Catholic Priest, Johannes Greber, and (1937 edition) renders the second appearance of the word “god” in the sentence as “a god.”
– Aid to Bible Understanding 1971, p. 1669

Clearly, the Watchtower Society have used another 2 references in Johannes Greber’s bible to support their doctrine.

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

Without wresting the Greek grammar, a translator can render Matthew 27:52, 53 in a way that suggests that a similar exposing of corpses resulted from the earthquake occurring at Jesus’ death. Thus the translation by Johannes Greber (1937) renders these verses: “Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.”—Compare the New World Translation.
– The Watchtower 1975 October 15 p. 640 Questions From Readers

Again, another reference to Greber in support of their teachings. But the thing that disturbed me the most was that The Watchtower is inviting its readers to compare their rendering of these verses in the New World Translation with Greber’s translation that was aided by means of channeling “spirits.”)

Event Clarifies Bible
● The recent Guatemalan earthquake affected even some of those already dead. “Time” magazine reports that “several mourners who went to bury their dead in family plots found that the coffins of long-dead relatives had been uncovered by the quake.” Something similar occurred during an earthquake in the Jerusalem area at Jesus’ death. At that time, dead bodies were customarily placed in vaults or chambers cut from Palestine’s soft limestone rock, often in hillsides. A report in the Bible, as translated by Johannes Greber, says that when Jesus died, “the earth quaked, and the rocks were shattered. Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.” Hence, rather than a resurrection, as some Bible translations imply, there appears to have been merely an exposure of the dead to observers, as in Guatemala.—Matt. 27:51-53.
– The Watchtower 1976 April 15 p. 231 Insight on the News

And yet another use of Johannes Greber’s bible in support of Watchtower teachings.

Questions From Readers
■ Why, in recent years, has The Watchtower not made use of the translation by the former Catholic priest, Johannes Greber?
This translation was used occasionally in support of renderings of Matthew 27:52, 53 and John 1:1, as given in the New World Translation and other authoritative Bible versions. But as indicated in a foreword to the 1980 edition of The New Testament by Johannes Greber, this translator relied on “God’s Spirit World” to clarify for him how he should translate difficult passages. It is stated: “His wife, a medium of God’s Spirit world was often instrumental in conveying the correct answers from God’s Messengers to Pastor Greber.” The Watchtower has deemed it improper to make use of a translation that has such a close rapport with spiritism. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) The scholarship that forms the basis for the rendering of the above-cited texts in the New World Translation is sound and for this reason does not depend at all on Greber’s translation for authority. Nothing is lost, therefore, by ceasing to use his New Testament.
– The Watchtower 1983 April 1 p. 31 Questions From Readers

Please read this reference again. It took me several times to fully grasp what is being said. The Watchtower has a knack for juggling their wording with semantics, thus weaseling their way out of a corner. But, upon further investigation, this is a corner they cannot get out from.

After reading this a few times, digesting every word, I see exactly what is happening. The Watchtower is giving the impression that they did not know about who Greber really was until 1980. In 1980, the Greber foundation printed a revised edition of Greber’s bible. In this forward, it was revealed that his spirit-medium wife helped him translate difficult passages. For a religion that preaches and teaches to touch nothing unclean, and to have nothing to do with spiritism, this was an eye-opening discovery.

For a religion that calls itself “the truth”, was this really the truth?
All one has to do is look at the evidence quoted.

In 1955, The Watchtower knew he was a spiritualist and wrote a book about communicating with the spirit world. This should have raised red flags all over the place: STAY AWAY FROM THIS PERSON!

In 1956, The Watchtower even quotes from the introduction of his bible translation, stating how he got involved in spiritism and that his translation was aimed to be a very spiritualistic read. There is no question that at the very least, The Watchtower knew what Greber was involved in, and how he intended his bible translation to become. The Watchtower may not have known about his wife, but at this point, it really is a moot point.

In 1962, beginning with a little footnote, The Watchtower begins to use Johannes Greber in support of their teachings. They knew who he was, but because they had a difficult time finding support for scriptures such as John 1:1, they had to find support in a former Catholic priest who used séances with the spirit world to translate his version of the bible. Let that sink in for a minute…

There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you. You should prove yourself blameless before Jehovah your God.
– Deuteronomy 18:10-13 New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures 2013 (bold text inserted for emphasis)

So again, I ask: Was Watchtower telling the whole truth in 1983?

The answer is clearly and resoundingly NO. They were lying about when they knew about Greber. The forward in Greber’s 1980 edition about his spirit-medium really didn’t soften the blow like The Watchtower was probably looking for. Their hand was caught in the spiritistic cookie jar.

I wish this is where it ended, but sadly, the story continues.

As I looked into the Spanish Translation of The Watchtower Library CD ROM, I noticed that there are only 2 references to Greber. Both references were articles that used Greber to support their teachings.

The 1983 Questions From Readers where The Watchtower admitted looking to a known spiritist was never translated into Spanish. So, from the Spanish speaking perspective, it seems like Greber is a respected source that The Watchtower is using to support their teachings.

In the 1983 Questions From Readers, The Watchtower promised its readers that they would no longer use Greber in support of their teachings. This was due to his close rapport with spiritism. Was this the case? Well, in Spanish, they omitted the article about Greber altogether, so I guess The Watchtower may have a point there. I believe The Watchtower was hiding the facts from the Spanish speaking and reading Jehovah’s Witnesses rather than keeping its word about not using him any longer.

This begs two questions:

If The Watchtower was hiding things to the Spanish speaking audience, were they hiding the facts from other language groups?
In what other languages conveniently did they not translate the 1983 Questions From Readers?
My sources confirmed with Watchtower Library CD ROM’s in different languages that this article was never translated into German and French, therefore omitted.

But did Watchtower keep its word and no longer use Greber in support of their teachings because of his close rapport with spiritism?

In 1987, The Watchtower translated Aid to Bible Understanding into Spanish. In the English version, there are 2 references to Greber. In Spanish, there was a reference to Greber that was not removed. Really, when an organization like The Watchtower Society discovers that a man used his spirit-medium wife to help translate the bible, and knowing that Greber’s practices were something detestable to the God, should they not have made sure that any and all future references to Greber would be removed from future reprints and translations?

Lastly, there are Watchtower letters sent to the Greber Foundation thanking them for copies of his bible translation as well as for his book, Communication with the Spirit World of God – Its laws and Its Purpose, since both books are difficult to come by. These letters are dated in the year 1980. Shortly afterward, there are letters from persons writing to The Watchtower headquarters requesting the address where these books can be found. The Watchtower, after just receiving books from the Greber Foundation, lied to such ones, claiming that they did not know how to obtain Greber’s books. They simply provided an old address where Greber lived prior to his death.

We see, in this whole tangled web of lies, that The Watchtower is teaching that those who practice spiritism are enemies of God. However the evidence shows that they themselves are seeking support from a known spiritist who is looking to the spirit world.

“Do as I say, and not as I do” has never meant more to me now that I am no longer a member of that religion.

– Ricky Gonzales
https://avoidjw.org/en/news/watchtower-involved-spiritism/

RizenPhoenix · Feb 18, 2022

TheLearner said:

https://www.newadvent.org/utility/search.htm?safe=active&cx=000299817191393086628:ifmbhlr-8x0&q=Trinity&sa=Search&cof=FORID:9
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/trinitarianism-in-the-early-church/

Ignatius of Antioch, AD 110
Our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Spirit. (Letter to the Ephesians 18)

Ignatius … to the church of God the Most High Father and his beloved Son, Jesus Christ, … I glorify God, even Jesus Christ, who has given you such wisdom … (Letter to the Smyrneans intro-ch. 1)

Anonymous, Letter to Diognetus, AD 80 - 130
This is he who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old, and yet who is ever born afresh in the hearts of the saints. This is he who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son. (Letter to Diognetus 11)

Justin Martyr, c. AD 150
"No one knows the Father but the Son, nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal him" [Matt. 21:27]. The Jews, accordingly, being are throughout of the opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spoke to Moses [in the burning bush], though the One who spoke to him was the Son of God. … They are justly charged, both by the Spirit of Prophecy and by Christ himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. Those who affirm that the Son is the Father are proven neither to be acquainted with the Father nor to know that the Father has a Son. The Son, being the first-begotten Word of God, is God. Of old he appeared in the shape of and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and other prophets, but now in the time of your reign [i.e., during the Roman empire] … he became man by a virgin … for the salvation of those who believe in him. (First Apology 63).

There is then brought to the president of the brethren [I think this refers to whoever is presiding at a meeting, but no one knows for certain] bread and a cup of wine mixed with water. He takes them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at his hands. (First Apology 65)

Leningrad Codex of the Hebrew Scriptures
Leningrad Codex of the Hebrew Scriptures
For all things with which we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit. (First Apology 67)

But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten, there is no name given. .. And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word who also was with him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and Godís ordering all things through him. (Second Apology 6)

Our Saviour Jesus Christ … being the Word of God, inseparable from Him in power, having assumed [the form of] man, who had been made in the image and likeness of God, restored to us the knowledge of the religion of our ancient forefathers. (Hortatory Address to the Greeks 38)

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts and Jacob in parable by the Holy Spirit. (Dialogue with Trypho 36)

[Trypho the Jew speaking to Justin about Christians in general] Trypho said, " … You utter many blasphemies. You're attempting to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud, became crucified, ascended up to heaven, will come again to earth, and ought to be worshiped!"

Then I answered, "I know that, as the word of God says, this great wisdom of God, the Maker of all things, and the Almighty, is hidden from you." (Dialogue with Trypho 38)

In the fourty-fourth Psalm [LXX, in our Masoretic text, it's the 45th], these words are … referred to Christ: "My heart has brought forth a good Word" [v. 1, considered by the early Christians to be a reference to the birth of the Son/Word in eternity past]. (Dialogue with Trypho 38)

God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: "If I shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and review them. The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting He established me in the beginning, before He had made the earth, and before He had made the deeps, before the springs of the waters had issued forth, before the mountains had been established ... [Prov. 8:22ff]. (Dialogue with Trypho 61)

Since we find it recorded in the memoirs of the apostles that he is the Son of God, and since we call him the Son, we have understood that he proceeded before all creatures from the Father by his power and his will ... and that he became man by the virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same way in which it derived its origin. (Dialogue with Trypho 100)

For I have already proved that he was the only-begotten of the Father in everything, being begotten, in a unique way, Logos and Power by him, and afterwards become man through the virgin, as we have learned from the memoirs [of the apostles]. (Dialogue with Trypho 105)

Hermas, AD 100 - 160
"First of all, sir," I said, "Explain to me what is the meaning of the rock and the gate?"
"This rock," he answered, "and this gate are the Son of God."
"How, sir?" I said. "The rock is old, and the gate is new."
"Listen," he said, "and understand, O ignorant man. The Son of God is older than all his creatures, so that he was a fellow counselor with the Father in his work of creation. For this reason he is old."
"And why is the gate new, sir?" I said.
"Because," he answered, "he became manifest in the last days of the dispensation. For this reason the gate was made new, that they who are to be saved by it might enter into the kingdom of God." (Shepherd of Hermas III:9:12)

1 Corinthian 8:5 states, 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Psalms 82:1 Again, it speaks of the Council of the gods. It is not unusual for Angels to be called god. Even Abraham was called Lord by his wife, 1 Peter 3:6. God/Lord is only a title, even Satan is called the god of this system of things 2 Timothy 4:4. Wisdom like Holy Spirit is personified, but Wisdom is not a person, Proverbs 1:20. Jesus/Yeshua is our King our Lord our Redeemer, but he is not God, YHWH.

TheLearner · Feb 18, 2022

ChristianSubMissionary said:

Brother you may want to leave the word "beings" off becuse that confuses Arians to think we believe that 1+1+1=1 when in fact we believe that 1 x 1 x 1 = 1^0 = 1

Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

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