The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[FreeGrace2]

Mmmmm the OT saints, the just men in the General Assembly do NOT get resurrected till the NHNE. (Heb. 11: 16, 12: 23, Rev. 21: 2)

Heb 11:16 - Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Heb 12:23 - to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Rev 21:2 - I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

None of these verses mentions "the General Assembly". Where is that term found in Scripture?

Second, none of these verses mentions a resurrection.

In Heb 11:16, "they" refers to OT saints, who anticipated a heavenly city for them. But the NJ isn't just for them, but ALL believers from all time.

In Heb 12:23, who makes up "the church of the firstborn"? Believers in the NT. But nothing about resurrection or a GA.

Rev 21 opens with the NHNE. There is nothing in ch 21 about anyone being resurrected.

So you are still at square one. You don't have any evidence for your claims.







Thus proving your theory wrong that we all get resurrected together.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The order is simple. Jesus first, and then, "when He comes" everyone else. That's the order.


The Bible only describes the resurrection of believers as one. Same for the resurrection of the unsaved.

`But how they (OT saints) desire a better, that is a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a CITY for THEM.` (Heb. 11: 16)

All believers will enjoy the NJ on the NE. It's not just for OT believers.

`You have come to ....the general assembly....to the spirits of just men made perfect.` (Heb. 12: 23)

You really think this refers only to OT saints? Why? The term "just men made perfect" refers to all believers, not just OT saints.

`Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God..` (Rev. 21: 2)

All believers will live with God FOREVER on the NE, where the NJ is.

There we read of God`s purpose for the OT saints, their inheritance of the city.

This is true of ALL believers.

At the moment they are in the third heaven in the General Assembly awaiting their inheritance of the city.

So where do you think all the dead NT saints are residing, if not the same place?

Thus when the city comes down our of heaven from God the OT saints will be in it. Their spirits will be clothed in new bodies to be able to live in that city.

Nope. There is just ONE resurrection of believers; all believers. And it will occur "when He comes".

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Red words refer to the Second Advent.

Blue words refer to EVERY believer from Adam on.

According to what you've posted, it seems you cannot believe whaat 1 Cor 15:23 says.

Or, you must have to interpret far beyond what the verse plainly says.

You tell me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

kleronomos said:
Matthew 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut

is this your pre trib rapture verse?

Vivid and unmistakeable

Yes, quite vivid and unmistakeablely NOT about any resurrection or rapture to heaven.

One thing seems clear; you have quite a great imagination seeing a resurrection and rapture in that parable!!

hint: it isn't there.

The resurrection and rapture ARE in 1 Thess 4 and 2 Thess 2:1.

Or prove me wrong by exegeting both verses to show me where my error is.

 

[kleronomos]

There is a difference between Head of the Body and King of Israel and of the Nations. The Headship of Christ over His Body is the closest relationship, whereas just being a subject of a king is not as close.

We are `members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones,` (Eph. 5: 30).

Whereas a subject in a nation to a king is not like that.

Something, anything, something close, something along the these lines is what I am looking for


BECAUSE this is HOW GODS TRUTHS ARE WRITTEN


Isaiah 54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 54:2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

Isaiah 54:3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Isaiah 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isaiah 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

Isaiah 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Isaiah 54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

Isaiah 54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

Isaiah 54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

Isaiah 54:12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

Isaiah 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Isaiah 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

Isaiah 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Isaiah 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

 

[kleronomos]

Vivid and unmistakeable

Matthew 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

DO YOU SEE THE RELATIONSHIP OF THESE VERSES?

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

[kleronomos]

Do my questions about where your evidence is bother you? I'm still waiting for any verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

YOU CAN ASK THIS QUESTION FOREVER AND WILL NEVER RECEIVE AN ANSWER. I Thank you for asking it.

 

[ewq1938]

YOU CAN ASK THIS QUESTION FOREVER AND WILL NEVER RECEIVE AN ANSWER. I Thank you for asking it.

They often post Joh 14:3 but it doesn't say anything about Christ coming back here and taking people anywhere. All it says is he will come back and receive them to himself so they will be where he is...which is Earth.

**********************

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you." that is regarding those who die while Christ is in heaven. Jesus will eventually leave heaven: "I will come again". That is the second coming and here is the important thing: "I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


So where is Christ after "I will come again and receive you unto myself"? Earth. He is no longer in heaven.


"I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


This is what Jesus said. This is what some think he said:


"I will come again and receive you unto myself AND TAKE YOU BACK TO HEAVEN; that where I am, there ye may be also."


He never said when he came back, that he was taking anyone to heaven. He comes again to Earth and where he is on Earth is where the church will be.

Also in the same chapter:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Christ isn't returning to take anyone up to heaven to live with him and the Father but the opposite! The Father and Christ will end up coming here to make their abode on Earth with us! That's the opposite of the false pre-trib teaching!

 

[kleronomos]

JUST HOW LONG IS 7 YEARS TO THE LORD?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


It has been approx. 2 days since Christ rose, so how long is 7 years GOD TIME?
1000 yrs = 24 hrs 500 = 12 250 = 6 125 = 3 62.5 = 1.5 31.25 = .75 15.625 = .375 7.8125 = .1875

'18 or so minutes' to God. Would it be worth all the effort to gather up all the horses and chariots and bring them to earth to collect everyone to take them back to heaven to turn around in 18 minutes to go back to earth.

Seriously, THAT WOULD BE INSANE.

With the time SHORTENED TO 'AN HOUR'. HOUR OF TEMPTATION, HOUR RULING WITH THE BEAST,

84 months is 18 minutes
42 months is 9 minutes
21 months is 4.5 minutes
10.5 months is 2.25 minutes

Has anyone worked this out?

 

[ewq1938]

[QUOTE="kleronomos, post: 4767398, member: 312711"

With the time SHORTENED TO 'AN HOUR'. HOUR OF TEMPTATION, HOUR RULING WITH THE BEAST,
[/QUOTE]


That reference isn't meant to be thought of as 60 min:


Rev_17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.
Total KJV occurrences: 108

Context will show whether it's a literal hour or a figurative hour. Since we already know the beast has 42 months to be in power, the hour here is figurative of 42 months ie: a period of time. This type of use of "hour" is found in many places in the bible.

It's like saying, "This is my hour to shine!" but just meaning, "This is my TIME to shine!" Not a limit to only 60 min.

 

[peldom10]

What's comical is how much you've been refuted and you don't even know it. lol

I give you plenty of verses that plainly say what I believe. Unlike yourself.

I'm still waiting for a verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

You believe He will, but you haven't YET provided a verse that shows this.

So, because the Bible says nothing about that, where did you get your information from?

It is clear...but you would reject it so....why?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

With the time SHORTENED TO 'AN HOUR'. HOUR OF TEMPTATION, HOUR RULING WITH THE BEAST,

That reference isn't meant to be thought of as 60 min:

Rev_17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.
Total KJV occurrences: 108

Context will show whether it's a literal hour or a figurative hour. Since we already know the beast has 42 months to be in power, the hour here is figurative of 42 months ie: a period of time. This type of use of "hour" is found in many places in the bible.

It's like saying, "This is my hour to shine!" but just meaning, "This is my TIME to shine!" Not a limit to only 60 min.

Agreed.


An example from Scripture would be...

John 4:23 -

"But an hour [G5610] is coming and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father also seeks such who worship Him."




Not meant to be taken as a "60-minute" period of time.

 

[kleronomos]

He never said when he came back, that he was taking anyone to heaven. He comes again to Earth and where he is on Earth is where the church will be.

I know THE WORDS DON'T MATCH WHAT YOU BELIEVE. Sorry. Maybe we could get God to rip that page out for you. (Makes me laugh just as much as the first time I ever read that)

YOU are correct. HE DID NOT USE THOSE EXACT WORDS. Words close to them but not exact. Words that lead in the exact same direction.

The conversation had 2000 years ago.

HOPEFULLY WE BOTH AGREE CHRIST JESUS IS IN HEAVEN RIGHT NOW and has been this entire time and will only be leaving for the day of vengeance.

I sure hope you will do this for me in the same manner to SEE wherein the problem lies.


John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

That generation of VIpERS will never be going to where He is going

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

Christ is going to HEAVEN where HE will be until HIS RETURN for the Day of vengeance/Day of the Lord. What word is used?
Follow. Not wait. Not wait for my return. Not wait till I go and come back but FOLLOW ME. Remember follow the leader? Where the leader went you followed. So the direction is SET.

Christ tells him 'not now' but afterwards. EVEN THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THE DIRECTION. THE ONLY WAY FOR THE DIRECTION TO BE CHANGED IS BY THE DOCTRINES OF MEN MAKING VOID THE WORDS OF GOD.

We know why, but Peter did not. So he is going to ask more questions. Peter had been following Jesus for a few years and is by no means ready to part ways and quit following.

37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

AGAIN, GODS WORDS set the direction for us. Question is RIGHT NOW, do you believe them? If you believe what is written, then you have NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT THEM AS TRUTH. NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL THE REST OF YOUR BELIEFS FROM THAT POINT ON. It isn't a 'trick' question. It isn't written in a hard to follow manner. There are not figures of speech employed. No idioms. Just straight up conversation.

38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me.

Christ is going to explain where He is going and what it's like

2 In my Father's house are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Direction is SET YET AGAIN. GO. And where He is going is where a place is being prepared FOR PETER.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


a. of Christ's invisible return from heaven, i. e. of the power which through the Holy Spirit he will exert in the souls of his disciples: John 14:18, 23;

of his invisible advent in the death of believers, by which be takes them to himself into heaven, John 14:3.

You do realize that IF THIS WERE ANY OTHER SUBJECT IN THE WHOLE WORLD YOU WOULD BE VERY UPSET THAT I was doing this right now, right?

1. We know Christ is going to Heaven and will not be leaving until the day of vengeance.
2. We know this is about 2000 years ago.
3. We know Peter is asking about following
4. We know Christ is preparing a place for him
5. We know Christ wants him to be where He is.
6. We know that Christ will personally receive Peter.
7. We know Christ can't LEAVE heaven so Peter is going to have to be raised up to Christ and so that is where Christ will meet him.


4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know

Direction SET YET AGAIN. That is 3 witnesses. I agree, there is no time written but the direction is most certainly.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Now Thomas jumps in to let us know THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT PETER, BUT 'WE'/US AND ALL THE SAVED TO FOLLOW AFTER THEM. This is not Metaphorically but actually.

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

God is in heaven AND 'cometh unto' IS A DIRECTION YET AGAIN.



18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

In the way of the Holy Spirit. But this is SPEAKING OF WHILE YET ALIVE, He will come. Previous is AFTERWARDS. AFTER THIS LIFE. Notice no 'following' or 'be where I am' or cometh but leave you

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Christ Jesus ALIVE IN HEAVEN, Peter ALIVE IN HEAVEN. (if the dead don't rise then Christ isn't risen)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

At the day you receive the Holy Spirit you know. And only peace follows because you also know you will never die

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[Marilyn]

None of these verses mentions "the General Assembly". Where is that term found in Scripture?

Second, none of these verses mentions a resurrection.

In Heb 11:16, "they" refers to OT saints, who anticipated a heavenly city for them. But the NJ isn't just for them, but ALL believers from all time.

The `General Assembly, (Heb. 12: 23) has the church of the first born AND THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN. The Spirits of Just men, the OT saints have been promised the city. (Heb. 11: 16) We, the Body of Christ have been promised `something better,` meaning a dominion greater. (Heb. 11: 40) Two different inheritances within God`s great kingdom.

As the OT saints, the just men are spirits at the moment, it is as God promised, that they would inherit the city, which comes down out of heaven from God. It is the fulfillment of God`s promise to the OT saints. (rev. 21: 2)

 

[kleronomos]

[QUOTE="kleronomos, post: 4767398, member: 312711"

With the time SHORTENED TO 'AN HOUR'. HOUR OF TEMPTATION, HOUR RULING WITH THE BEAST,

That reference isn't meant to be thought of as 60 min:


Rev_17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.
Total KJV occurrences: 108

Context will show whether it's a literal hour or a figurative hour. Since we already know the beast has 42 months to be in power, the hour here is figurative of 42 months ie: a period of time. This type of use of "hour" is found in many places in the bible.

It's like saying, "This is my hour to shine!" but just meaning, "This is my TIME to shine!" Not a limit to only 60 min.[/QUOTE]


I agree, it is not 60 minutes. More to just show how silly a pre trib rap is to GOD even at the 7 years. I believe it is way shorter though.

We will know the season though...

Revelation 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

If one has eyes to see the first 1/2 is the time to prepare for the 2nd half. Can't take the mark of the beast until the image is set up. SO on the outside the period of time life would get 'tricky' would be 3 1/2 years. BUT when you have 3 1/2 years to prepare, even that isn't so hard. And who do we really need to watch out for? FAMILY that is TRYING TO HELP us SEE.

 

[Marilyn]

FreeGrace2 said:
The order is simple. Jesus first, and then, "when He comes" everyone else. That's the order.


The Bible only describes the resurrection of believers as one. Same for the resurrection of the unsaved.

All believers will enjoy the NJ on the NE. It's not just for OT believers.


You really think this refers only to OT saints? Why? The term "just men made perfect" refers to all believers, not just OT saints.


All believers will live with God FOREVER on the NE, where the NJ is.


This is true of ALL believers.


So where do you think all the dead NT saints are residing, if not the same place?


Nope. There is just ONE resurrection of believers; all believers. And it will occur "when He comes".

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Red words refer to the Second Advent.

Blue words refer to EVERY believer from Adam on.

According to what you've posted, it seems you cannot believe whaat 1 Cor 15:23 says.

Or, you must have to interpret far beyond what the verse plainly says.

You tell me.

So where is Adam in Hebrews 11? It starts with Abel....

 

[Marilyn]

Something, anything, something close, something along the these lines is what I am looking for


BECAUSE this is HOW GODS TRUTHS ARE WRITTEN

Isaiah 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called..

Good scripture there, thank you.

The Lord is the Head of His Body - `members of His body, of His flesh and of his bones.` (Eph. 5: 30)

The Lord is the husband (master) of Israel and they are His `wife.` (Isa. 54: 4 & 5)

The Lord is the ruler over the nations who go up to honour Him. (Rev. 21: 26)

 

[kleronomos]

The `General Assembly, (Heb. 12: 23) has the church of the first born AND THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN. The Spirits of Just men, the OT saints have been promised the city. (Heb. 11: 16) We, the Body of Christ have been promised `something better,` meaning a dominion greater. (Heb. 11: 40) Two different inheritances within God`s great kingdom.

As the OT saints, the just men are spirits at the moment, it is as God promised, that they would inherit the city, which comes down out of heaven from God. It is the fulfillment of God`s promise to the OT saints. (rev. 21: 2)

What's really strange is quoting HEBREWS for the NOT HEBREWS.

Not so different that the JEWISH TRADITION for setting the church times.

That division thing is so difficult to manage. Seems Israel keeps intruding upon the 'churches' time. Didn't God give 'the church' any verses of its own? Pre trib and finding another wife, all without one direct word. Wonder why such a noticeable change from the way Israel is written about. I don't even know how many times it is repeated over and over in the Old Test. One side can't quite mentioning it and other never a direct word. CONFUSING to say the least. Almost like what isn't there just really isn't there.

 

[kleronomos]

Good scripture there, thank you.

The Lord is the Head of His Body - `members of His body, of His flesh and of his bones.` (Eph. 5: 30)

The Lord is the husband (master) of Israel and they are His `wife.` (Isa. 54: 4 & 5)

The Lord is the ruler over the nations who go up to honour Him. (Rev. 21: 26)

ALL Scripture is good. Don't thank me THANK GOD. What do you see as Isa 54 saying exactly?

 

[Marilyn]

ALL Scripture is good. Don't thank me THANK GOD. What do you see as Isa 54 saying exactly?

I see that Isa. 54 is God telling Israel about their future.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do my questions about where your evidence is bother you? I'm still waiting for any verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

YOU CAN ASK THIS QUESTION FOREVER AND WILL NEVER RECEIVE AN ANSWER. I Thank you for asking it.

You're welcome. People who go on forums pushing their unsupported ideas should be held to account.

Failing to answer these basic questions at least shows everyone who just reads these threads that they don't have answers nor any evidence from Scripture.

They are exposed by their own silence.