The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[cv5]

So....right now I am busy determining the veracity of the mo'ed Yom Teruah as it relates to the rapture of the Church. Paul makes a very significant statement in Eph 5:14, which is actually a recitation of an hymn only the sung on the Feast of Trumpets. Furthermore, 1Cor 15:52 and 1Thes 4:19 (both quintessential rapture passages) speak of trumpets that almost certainly carry with them connotations of the Feast of Trumpets.

The theory is as follows: the Feast of Trumpets is the "appointed time" of God's arrival for judgment (the age of Grace has ended). This judgment first comes upon the house of God.....who are at this present time faithful believing Christians. We Christians are deemed perfectly righteous and holy in and by the completed work of Jesus, Therefore we are NOT appointed to wrath.....the judgment is determined (IMO this judgement occurs in heaven pre-trib) that we are to be redeemed and raptured (as firstfruits along with Christ Jesus) aka "delivered" (Strong's G4506 "to snatch up for oneself") per 1Thes 1:10.

Then comes the 2Thess 2 sequence "the man of sin is revealed", and the Great Tribulation/Day of the Lord/70th week of Daniel/God's Wrath upon the earth dwellers has begun. This Wrath plays out from Revelation 6 through 18. The Church is already in Heaven by Revelation chapters 4 and 5, seen as the 24 elders, who are denoted as "kings and priests", who sit on thrones, wear white robes and wear crowns. This group is unquestionably the Church as these designations only fit them uniquely.

The terms Jesus uses so often of men not knowing the "day" or the "hour" also tie into the sighting of the new moon at the most significant "appointed time", the "head of the year" aka Yom Teruah. So again, there may be a significant connection to this particular festival appointed time Yom Teruah.

I am only offering food for thought. Not proposing doctrine, not being dogmatic. Any inputs would be appreciated.

See below video for background information. I DO NOT necessarily agree with the contents or conclusions of the video so please be aware of this.

 

[ewq1938]

Note however that the Body of Christ, the believers are NOT judged according to their works

That's wrong. Believers are judged by their works:


Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev_2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Judgement can be punishment or reward as we see in these verses.

 

[Omegatime]

Salvation is grace thru faith in Yeshua, but rewards are for your works done in righteousness. Two separate issues.

 

[peldom10]

What a pathetic snipe! btw, who is "the left" anyway?

How can you say your side is "staying with scriptures" WHEN you have ZERO verses that support a pretrib rapture?

You are the ones who AREN'T "staying with scriptures".

You reject clear scriptures that proves rapture and tribulation....that IS...... pathetic.
I will not post them again.

Left is you...I conclude. Look in the mirror.

 

[cv5]

And that is happening now without a pre-trib rapture. We are literally on the Verge of WWIII with 6 Nations already involved in potential War and USA will be number 7 involved followed by Europe and others.

Yeah..........but the rapture has not yet occurred. So we can safely discard this notion.

 

[Marilyn]

So....right now I am busy determining the veracity of the mo'ed Yom Teruah as it relates to the rapture of the Church. Paul makes a very significant statement in Eph 5:14, which is actually a recitation of an hymn only the sung on the Feast of Trumpets. Furthermore, 1Cor 15:52 and 1Thes 4:19 (both quintessential rapture passages) speak of trumpets that almost certainly carry with them connotations of the Feast of Trumpets.

The theory is as follows: the Feast of Trumpets is the "appointed time" of God's arrival for judgment (the age of Grace has ended). This judgment first comes upon the house of God.....who are at this present time faithful believing Christians. We Christians are deemed perfectly righteous and holy in and by the completed work of Jesus, Therefore we are NOT appointed to wrath.....the judgment is determined (IMO this judgement occurs in heaven pre-trib) that we are to be redeemed and raptured (as firstfruits along with Christ Jesus) aka "delivered" (Strong's G4506 "to snatch up for oneself") per 1Thes 1:10.

Then comes the 2Thess 2 sequence "the man of sin is revealed", and the Great Tribulation/Day of the Lord/70th week of Daniel/God's Wrath upon the earth dwellers has begun. This Wrath plays out from Revelation 6 through 18. The Church is already in Heaven by Revelation chapters 4 and 5, seen as the 24 elders, who are denoted as "kings and priests", who sit on thrones, wear white robes and wear crowns. This group is unquestionably the Church as these designations only fit them uniquely.

The terms Jesus uses so often of men not knowing the "day" or the "hour" also tie into the sighting of the new moon at the most significant "appointed time", the "head of the year" aka Yom Teruah. So again, there may be a significant connection to this particular festival appointed time Yom Teruah.

I am only offering food for thought. Not proposing doctrine, not being dogmatic. Any inputs would be appreciated.

See below video for background information. I DO NOT necessarily agree with the contents or conclusions of the video so please be aware of this.

Interesting thoughts there cv5. Good to be thinking about it. Now I believe that when Jesus was manifest on earth He did not know all things but continually listened to the Father and obeyed Him. However when He was placed at the Father`s right hand, the Godhead, He has now omniscience. Thus our Head fully knows what appointed time His Father will send Him to receive His Body to glory.

Now as to the `Feast of Trumpets.` I realise it was celebrated on Israel`s New Year, as you said. However this is what I have gleaned.

Trumpets

The Feast of Trumpets fulfillment is Israel`s dark day. It occurs at the New Moon when the primary night light of the heavens is darkened. Israel`s prophets repeatedly warned of a coming dark day of judgment. They knew it as `the Day of the Lord,` that terrible period of time at the end of the age when the Lord will pour out His fiery judgment not only upon Israel`s enemies, but upon Israel herself to bring her to repentance and into the New Covenant.

Day of Atonement

Yom Kippur events prophetically points to Messiah`s future work with the nation of Israel. They will occur at Messiah`s coming to establish His ruler through Israel. As a nation Israel will come face to face in repentance with their Messiah - Israel`s national Day of repentance. (Zech. 12: 7 - 14)

Tabernacles

When the Messiah sets up His millennial kingdom rule, He will gather the remnant of Israel back to her land. The righteous among the Gentiles, too, will be gathered to the Lord. They will go up from year to year to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles - God is with us. (Zech. 14: 16 - 21)

 

[Marilyn]

FreeGrace2 said:


So we know from Scripture that ALL believers, from Adam on, will be resurrected at the same event, which is "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23.

Right. 2 types and therefore just 2 resurrections, as the verses I've provided plainly say.

Jn 5:28,29 doesn't indicate that these resurrections occur together, and the context of Scripture show that they are 1,000 years apart.


Correct. Now, do you know the result of being judged according to their works?


2 Cor 5:10 says believers will be judged. In fact, the "Judgment Seat of Christ" IS a judgment.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

`For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. BUT EACH ONE IN HIS OWN ORDER:...` (1 Cor. 15: 23)

When we read all of God`s word we see that there is an ORDER for those being made alive because of Jesus work on the cross.

Two types of resurrections do not result in just two times. Scripture tells us who is resurrected and when over time.

John 5: 28 & 29 reveal about those that are IN THE GRAVE. However do you realise that the OT saints, the just men are in the General Assembly and NOT in the grave, plus the believers of the church who have preceded us are also in the General Assembly. Two different groups awaiting their resurrection to life but at two different times.

The Church, (1 Thess. 4: 13 - 17, Rev. 3: 21) Pre-trib.
The just men (mostly OT saints) (Rev. 21: 2) NHNE.

The Bema seat of Christ is not judgment of life or condemnation, but for rewards of what was done under the anointing of the Holy Spirit and not for self aggrandizement. (2 Cor. 5: 8 - 10, 1 Cor. 3: 9 - 15)

 

[Marilyn]

That's wrong. Believers are judged by their works:


Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev_2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Judgement can be punishment or reward as we see in these verses.

The Lord is speaking to the people of Israel in Mat. 16: 27 about their future.

The Lord is speaking to the church in Rev. 2: 23, as you say, but it is NOT for being judged to life or condemnation. It is the Bema seat of Christ, for rewards of what was done under the anointing of the Holy Spirit and not for self aggrandizement. (2 Cor. 5: 8 - 10, 1 Cor. 3: 9 - 15)

 

[kleronomos]

Hi kleronomos,

`Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks, or to the Church of God.` (1 Cor. 10: 32)

`(God the Father) gave Him (Jesus) to be HEAD over all things to the church which is His Body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.` (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

Jesus is also KING of Israel. (Matt. 2: 2)

And also KING of the Nations. (Rev. 15: 3)

I know if someone had given me all those verses spotlighting the many problems in the many different areas, it would give me great pause.

1Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God

That settles it then The church of God is the lost sheep of Israel. No, the church is WHOMSOEVER WOULD. Not under the law, but under grace. Gods people.


Yes Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords of ALL kingdoms of the world. Or at least will be once Babylon is fallen at His return.

I am not sure how much different "Jesus being the head/the man in charge" makes anything, as it is still God. Surely no one else could ever be.

No, Gods people are Gods people. I am glad I am willing to stand, willing to fight and even willing to die. Funny how many people are willing to do that for their country and how many aren't willing to do it for GOD. But funny isn't the word. Tragic is.

 

[Absolutely]

The `trumpet` refers to God`s voice, (Rev. 1: 10). And as the Feast of Trumpets is for Israel then it refers to them. The Last trump of 1 Cor. 15: 52 is for the believer in the Body of Christ. It refers to the last prophetic voice of God to us while on earth.

Not what it is saying.
His voice came AS A TRUMPET.

if you think the last trumpet( last trump) is not blown every year then you can be wrong all you want to.
You can also assume the jewish feasts and customs have noting to do with heavens timing all you want to, and just remain wrong.

Yes of course the last trump is for the believer. Nobody thinks otherwise.

 

[cv5]

Interesting thoughts there cv5. Good to be thinking about it. Now I believe that when Jesus was manifest on earth He did not know all things but continually listened to the Father and obeyed Him. However when He was placed at the Father`s right hand, the Godhead, He has now omniscience. Thus our Head fully knows what appointed time His Father will send Him to receive His Body to glory.

Now as to the `Feast of Trumpets.` I realise it was celebrated on Israel`s New Year, as you said. However this is what I have gleaned.

Trumpets

The Feast of Trumpets fulfillment is Israel`s dark day. It occurs at the New Moon when the primary night light of the heavens is darkened. Israel`s prophets repeatedly warned of a coming dark day of judgment. They knew it as `the Day of the Lord,` that terrible period of time at the end of the age when the Lord will pour out His fiery judgment not only upon Israel`s enemies, but upon Israel herself to bring her to repentance and into the New Covenant.

Day of Atonement

Yom Kippur events prophetically points to Messiah`s future work with the nation of Israel. They will occur at Messiah`s coming to establish His ruler through Israel. As a nation Israel will come face to face in repentance with their Messiah - Israel`s national Day of repentance. (Zech. 12: 7 - 14)

Tabernacles

When the Messiah sets up His millennial kingdom rule, He will gather the remnant of Israel back to her land. The righteous among the Gentiles, too, will be gathered to the Lord. They will go up from year to year to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles - God is with us. (Zech. 14: 16 - 21)



View attachment 235959

The thing is.....it is impossible to divorce eschatology from the mo'edim. In fact it is the mo'edim that precedes the eschatology and is the very template for it. The first three feasts have been fulfilled (with absolute precision to the very day) and we can certainly expect the last four to be fulfilled in exactly the same way.

Is the rapture going to occur at the very beginning of the Feast of Trumpets? What to do the commentators on this thread think? I would be curious to know......

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
What a pathetic snipe! btw, who is "the left" anyway?

How can you say your side is "staying with scriptures" WHEN you have ZERO verses that support a pretrib rapture?

You are the ones who AREN'T "staying with scriptures".

You reject clear scriptures that proves rapture and tribulation

No one has yet quoted ANY verse that proves a "pretrib" rapture. That is the issue, not that there isn't a rapture.

Of course the living believers WILL be caught up together with the saints from heaven and receive their glorified body.

What Scripture SAYS NOTHING ABOUT is a trip to heaven after being given a glorified body.

And why do you say I reject the tribulation?? Where did I ever even suggest such nonsense?

Obviously the Bible speaks of both a rapture, meaning living believers caught up together with saints from heaven to receive their glorified bodies, and of the Great Tribulation.

So your comment is beyond weird.

....that IS...... pathetic.
I will not post them again.

You've NEVER posted any verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Left is you...I conclude. Look in the mirror.

Your conclusion is as WRONG as your theology about end times.

You believe in a pretrib rapture with trip to heaven even though the Bible says nothing of the kind.

If I'm "left", then you are left of left.

 

[FreeGrace2]

`For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. BUT EACH ONE IN HIS OWN ORDER:...` (1 Cor. 15: 23)

When we read all of God`s word we see that there is an ORDER for those being made alive because of Jesus work on the cross.

The order is simple. Jesus first, and then, "when He comes" everyone else. That's the order.

Two types of resurrections do not result in just two times.

The Bible only describes the resurrection of believers as one. Same for the resurrection of the unsaved.

Scripture tells us who is resurrected and when over time.

"over time'", huh. Nope. Just one. It is "when He comes".

You seem not to like my use of the NIV. So here are more:
English Standard Version
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Berean Study Bible
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

Berean Literal Bible
But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming,

King James Bible
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


New American Standard Bible
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,


Christian Standard Bible
But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at his coming, those who belong to Christ.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at His coming, those who belong to Christ.

American Standard Version
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Each person in his order; The Messiah was the first fruits; after this, those who are The Messiah's at his arrival.

English Revised Version
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This will happen to each person in his own turn. Christ is the first, then at his coming, those who belong to him [will be made alive].

International Standard Version
However, this will happen to each person in the proper order: first the Messiah, then those who belong to the Messiah when he comes.

They also say the same thing.

John 5: 28 & 29 reveal about those that are IN THE GRAVE. However do you realise that the OT saints, the just men are in the General Assembly and NOT in the grave

I have no idea what you are talking about here, so please clarify. ALL dead bodies are IN the grave.

plus the believers of the church who have preceded us are also in the General Assembly. Two different groups awaiting their resurrection to life but at two different times.

Please show in the Bible about the "general assembly" that is related to resurrection. The 2 "different groups" has already been defined as saved and unsaved. Acts 24:15.

If you think I'm wrong, please address this verse and show me where my error is.

The Church, (1 Thess. 4: 13 - 17, Rev. 3: 21) Pre-trib.
The just men (mostly OT saints) (Rev. 21: 2) NHNE.

There is NO resurrection in Rev 21. Or prove it with Scripture.

The Bema seat of Christ is not judgment of life or condemnation, but for rewards of what was done under the anointing of the Holy Spirit and not for self aggrandizement. (2 Cor. 5: 8 - 10, 1 Cor. 3: 9 - 15)

Of course it is. That's what I said.

 

[Absolutely]

`For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. BUT EACH ONE IN HIS OWN ORDER:...` (1 Cor. 15: 23)

When we read all of God`s word we see that there is an ORDER for those being made alive because of Jesus work on the cross.

Two types of resurrections do not result in just two times. Scripture tells us who is resurrected and when over time.

John 5: 28 & 29 reveal about those that are IN THE GRAVE. However do you realise that the OT saints, the just men are in the General Assembly and NOT in the grave, plus the believers of the church who have preceded us are also in the General Assembly. Two different groups awaiting their resurrection to life but at two different times.

The Church, (1 Thess. 4: 13 - 17, Rev. 3: 21) Pre-trib.
The just men (mostly OT saints) (Rev. 21: 2) NHNE.

The Bema seat of Christ is not judgment of life or condemnation, but for rewards of what was done under the anointing of the Holy Spirit and not for self aggrandizement. (2 Cor. 5: 8 - 10, 1 Cor. 3: 9 - 15)

Pretty much so..yes

 

[Absolutely]

The thing is.....it is impossible to divorce eschatology from the mo'edim. In fact it is the mo'edim that precedes the eschatology and is the very template for it. The first three feasts have been fulfilled (with absolute precision to the very day) and we can certainly expect the last four to be fulfilled in exactly the same way.

Is the rapture going to occur at the very beginning of the Feast of Trumpets? What to do the commentators on this thread think? I would be curious to know......

....or the last trump of the feast of trumpets.

Just sayin

 

[Absolutely]

The order is simple. Jesus first, and then, "when He comes" everyone else. That's the order.


The Bible only describes the resurrection of believers as one. Same for the resurrection of the unsaved.


"over time'", huh. Nope. Just one. It is "when He comes".

You seem not to like my use of the NIV. So here are more:
English Standard Version
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Berean Study Bible
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

Berean Literal Bible
But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming,

King James Bible
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


New American Standard Bible
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,


Christian Standard Bible
But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at his coming, those who belong to Christ.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at His coming, those who belong to Christ.

American Standard Version
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Each person in his order; The Messiah was the first fruits; after this, those who are The Messiah's at his arrival.

English Revised Version
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This will happen to each person in his own turn. Christ is the first, then at his coming, those who belong to him [will be made alive].

International Standard Version
However, this will happen to each person in the proper order: first the Messiah, then those who belong to the Messiah when he comes.

They also say the same thing.


I have no idea what you are talking about here, so please clarify. ALL dead bodies are IN the grave.


Please show in the Bible about the "general assembly" that is related to resurrection. The 2 "different groups" has already been defined as saved and unsaved. Acts 24:15.

If you think I'm wrong, please address this verse and show me where my error is.


There is NO resurrection in Rev 21. Or prove it with Scripture.


Of course it is. That's what I said.

Many ot saints were resurrected alongside Jesus.

First resurrection.

Part of firstfruits

Then main at the pretrib rapture

 

[Absolutely]

You reject clear scriptures that proves rapture and tribulation....that IS...... pathetic.
I will not post them again.

Left is you...I conclude. Look in the mirror.

Just make him refute the bible.

And he will.

I find it comical

Lol

 

[FreeGrace2]

Many ot saints were resurrected alongside Jesus.

Really? Please quote the passage that supports this. I don't believe your claim.

First resurrection.

The Bible tells us that Jesus was "the first to rise from the dead". So you figure it out. Acts 26:23

Part of firstfruits

There aren't any "parts" of firstfruits. Jesus is the ONLY ONE. 1 Cor 15:23

Then main at the pretrib rapture

There is only ONE resurrection of SAVED PEOPLE. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23.

You are free to address any of these verses and try to prove me wrong about what they mean.

If I am wrong, I would sure like to know.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Just make him refute the bible.

And he will.

I find it comical

Lol

What's comical is how much you've been refuted and you don't even know it. lol

I give you plenty of verses that plainly say what I believe. Unlike yourself.

I'm still waiting for a verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

You believe He will, but you haven't YET provided a verse that shows this.

So, because the Bible says nothing about that, where did you get your information from?

 

[cv5]

....or the last trump of the feast of trumpets.

Just sayin

I don't see it that way. It could mean the Feast of Trumpets, the last one. Or many other intriguing possibilities. I hate to admit it but we may never actually know what we would like to know on this matter. We know that Paul knew.....but we may not truly know until our gathering to Him.

If memory serves me correctly, Ezekiel omits 4 of the mo'edim: Pentecost, Feast of Weeks, Feast of Trumpets, and Day of Atonement. There is lots of commentary on the reasons for this. Supposedly having something to do with the fact that they have been fulfilled (the last one??). Very interesting.