The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is not a single verse pointing to Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven, either.

The joke's on you. Thinking that there are ANY verses saying what you keep claiming. All without any verse to prove it.

The horses have no hooves.

Who cares? Totally irrelevant.

Where are your convincing verses about Jesus taking people to heaven after He comes and resurrects believers?

If you had 'em, you'd have quoted 'em.

Your silence is deafening.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
How silly. There are NO pretrib verses. Anywhere.

Nobody saw the mailman put the mail in our mailbox.

Exactly !! You HAVE TO presume that He will. That's all you have; presumption.

It has to be a fact.

It is quite silly to believe what the Bible does not say.

Presuming what isn't stated is foolish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Your comments are totally irrelevant.

But hey, C'mon...prove that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

Prove mine.

OK, so you can't prove your presumptions. Everyone knows that anyway.

However, to ask me to "prove yours" is the height of absurdity. Of course you KNOW that your view CAN'T be proved.

Or you would have by now.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
How silly. There are NO pretrib verses. Anywhere.

I took your covers off.

Why don't you take the covers off your presumptions and give us the verse that proves your claims?

You are exposed for coming in here and trolling pretribbers.

Oh, so asking for evidence for a belief is now called "trolling"??? Really? Would you rather I not ask for evidence?

There is nothing at all of substance in your prove a negative rabbit trails.

I guess what you are trying to say here is that trying to prove a pretrib rapture is a "negative rabbit trail".

Well, I guess we can agree on that!!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

What is the day of the Lord in verse 2 mean

Steven and stefanny when to Los Angeles they are visit they friend

They is plural pronoun for Steven and stefanny

(1)Concerning the coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him ..........(2) that day of the Lord

2 is plural pronouns of 1

Let me try to put it as simply as I can, to help you see what I'm saying (and what the text is conveying):

--Verse 1's Subject (in its two clauses) is completely and totally VERTICAL (the Lord DESCENDING "TO the meeting... IN THE AIR" and US being SNATCHED / CAUGHT UP "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR")

--Verse 2's Subject (Paul covering what the "false conveyors" are purporting) is completely and totally HORIZONTAL (i.e. entirely EARTHLY-located): "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]";
Paul states ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the "false convyors' msg" being ANYTHING AT ALL about "RAPTURE / CAUGHT UP / SNATCHED [IN THE AIR]" (THAT Subject / Paul's OWN v.1 Subject HE IS BRINGING to bear on the issue of the "false claimants' false msg")--their false claim rather had / has to do with "[that] the day of the Lord is present / is already here" (i.e. playing out upon the EARTH, where it is ONLY EVER SLATED to take place: ON THE EARTH)





The remainder of the passage is Paul reiterating (3x) the SEQUENCE between THESE TWO ISSUES (v.1's Subject and V.2's Subject). Before "the day of the Lord [EARTHLY-located TIME-PERIOD] can BE PRESENT (as was the false claimants' msg), particular "movement" must take place (stated 3x in 3 ways):

a) "THE '[a] standing away-from [away-from a previous standing]' FIRST" (and [subsequentlyand distinctly] "the man of sin BE REVEALED")
b) "what withholdeth [holds back, is RESTRAINING] unto/for (him [the man of sin] TO BE REVEALED *IN HIS TIME*")
c) "until out of the midst he BECOME" ("AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked BE REVEALED") [in similar language to that of Lam2:3-4 "he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy..." i.e. lifting his RESTRAINT and allowing the "enemy" to then have at it!]



...IOW, the man of sin's "BE REVEALED" FOLLOWS that particular "movement" being spoken of in 3 ways (referring to the same basic thing).








Paul is conveying the SEQUENCE between (between TWO DISTINCT ITEMS):

-- the earthly-located time period known as "the DOTL" [the Subject of the "false claimants" (v.2) saying "IT IS PRESENT!"] (its ARRIVAL ASPECT [period] involving "JUDGMENTs" and "BIRTH PANGS" and the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" [v.9a] of "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME [Dan7:7]... the "IN THE NIGHT" [DARK / DARKNESS] time period, aka the 7-yr Trib [THAT ASPECT OF the entire long DOTL time period]...)
[and]
-- "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (v.1)




... they are NOT *identical* ITEMS (v.1's Subject and v.2's Subject), but entirely DISTINCT

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ... they are NOT *identical* ITEMS (v.1's Subject and v.2's Subject), but entirely DISTINCT

(the false conveyors [v.2] were saying NOTHING about the content/Subject OF VERSE 1--PAUL's Subject HE IS BRINGING TO BEAR on the issue [the issue of v.2's Subject that the false claimants' were purporting which was/is an entirely EARTHLY-located issue/Subject, "purporting that the DOTL IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE" unfolding upon the earth])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The 5 wise go into the wedding chamber.
[...]
But you are trying to make some case that some unknown group goes into the marriage room and shuts the door

The same word that's in 25:10 (about the "5 wise" [whom He is NOT coming "TO MARRY," btw tho they ARE "saved" persons]) is used here also (of the "GUESTS [PLURAL]"):

Mat 22:10

Berean Study Bible
So the servants went out into the streets and gathered everyone they could find, both evil and good, and the wedding hall [G1062 -gamos] was filled with guests [plural].

Berean Literal Bible
And those servants, having gone out into the highways, brought together all, as many as they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall [G1062 - gamos] became full of those reclining [plural; G345 - that is, at a meal / surrounding a table].



Note to the readers: "the GUESTS [PLURAL]" are ALSO *NOT* whom He is coming "TO MARRY"... they are "the GUESTS [PLURAL]" (NOT "the BRIDE / WIFE [SINGULAR]")

Abs, you're having ALL OF THE GUESTS [PLURAL] (LIKE WHO WERE IN ATTENDANCE in the John 2 event, with the governor of the feast and Jesus and His mother and hosts of guests), YOU have them ALL supposedly coming into the "marriage CHAMBER / ROOM" (the INTIMATE place)


[Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" v.36 [not "FOR" the wedding!! as Abs insists]... THEN the meal [G347 - "shall sit down" - around at table, at a meal], v.37!! i.e. the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (and their ENTRANCE [or NON-entrance] INTO *that*!)]



Note to Abs: Jesus talks ABUNDANTLY about His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (FOR the earthly MK age), throughout the Gospel accounts... I'm not aware of any passages particularly mentioning any horses or the Armageddon war... (however, the SHARP SWORD of His mouth, yeah...).
As I see it, the way you are explaining things is conveying to me that you think Jesus NEVER REFERS to His Second Coming to the earth (FOR the earthly MK age), SINCE (as you say) He doesn't talk about "horses" and "Armageddon" anywhere... IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING??

 

[cv5]

"Abs, you're having ALL OF THE GUESTS [PLURAL] (LIKE WHO WERE IN ATTENDANCE in the John 2 event, with the governor of the feast and Jesus and His mother and hosts of guests), YOU have them ALL supposedly coming into the "marriage CHAMBER / ROOM" (the INTIMATE place) "

Exactly. I was trying to model that scenario re: the 10 virgins in post #517.

The newlywed Bride and Groom are ALREADY ensconced in the wedding chamber (in heaven) for their honeymoon. The 10 virgins don't live with the Bride under her very roof 24/7 waiting for the Groom to arrive. No, but these 10 Bridesmaids live in their own homes (on the earth) with their own families.

Now that the Groom has arrived like a thief in the night and has raptured away the Bride and has departed to the Father's house (to heaven), only THEN do these expectant Bridesmaids spring into service as they do not instantaneously know that this rapture has occurred. It comes as a surprise to them, as it does to the entire community.

HOWEVER, the news very quickly spreads around the villiage (on the earth) that the rapture has occurred. It becomes obvious to everyone.

It is the task of these bridesmaids to go around the village and INFORM all of the relevant parties that the wedding feast/supper/festivities are soon to begin.

These bridesmaids and the villagers do not meet the Groom again until He exits the wedding chamber (in heaven) (after seven days aka seven years!) for the Second Coming (to the earth) to enjoy the wedding supper/feast/festivities.

The point is that these Bridesmaids definitely do not go to heaven (the honeymoon bridal chamber) with the Bride and Groom. They are wedding guests....

 

[Absolutely]

"Abs, you're having ALL OF THE GUESTS [PLURAL] (LIKE WHO WERE IN ATTENDANCE in the John 2 event, with the governor of the feast and Jesus and His mother and hosts of guests), YOU have them ALL supposedly coming into the "marriage CHAMBER / ROOM" (the INTIMATE place) "

Exactly. I was trying to model that scenario re: the 10 virgins in post #517.

The newlywed Bride and Groom are ALREADY ensconced in the wedding chamber (in heaven) for their honeymoon. The 10 virgins don't live with the Bride under her very roof 24/7 waiting for the Groom to arrive. No, but these 10 Bridesmaids live in their own homes (on the earth) with their own families.

Now that the Groom has arrived like a thief in the night and has raptured away the Bride and has departed to the Father's house (to heaven), only THEN do these expectant Bridesmaids spring into service as they do not instantaneously know that this rapture has occurred. It comes as a surprise to them, as it does to the entire community.

HOWEVER, the news very quickly spreads around the villiage (on the earth) that the rapture has occurred. It becomes obvious to everyone.

It is the task of these bridesmaids to go around the village and INFORM all of the relevant parties that the wedding feast/supper/festivities are soon to begin.

These bridesmaids and the villagers do not meet the Groom again until He exits the wedding chamber (in heaven) (after seven days aka seven years!) for the Second Coming (to the earth) to enjoy the wedding supper/feast/festivities.

The point is that these Bridesmaids definitely do not go to heaven (the honeymoon bridal chamber) with the Bride and Groom. They are wedding guests....

What it says is different.;
Before the flood
One taken/ left
Watch and wait.

Before the flood the groom comes for the virgins.
Watch and wait.

Not only that the virgins go out to meet the groom.
But his return was delayed.

That is all 100% pretrib rapture.

You need a "after the flood" time frame ,and no delay in his coming to make all that work..

 

[Absolutely]

Quote by dw;
"""Coming always refers to after the trib and coming for the millennial kingdom, never the rapture"
Or something to that effect

Here is mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It is declared twice
Jesus comes pretrib.
" coming" used twice as a pretrib rapture dynamic.

 

[cv5]

What it says is different.;
Before the flood
One taken/ left
Watch and wait.

Before the flood the groom comes for the virgins.
Watch and wait.

Not only that the virgins go out to meet the groom.
But his return was delayed.

That is all 100% pretrib rapture.

You need a "after the flood" time frame ,and no delay in his coming to make all that work..

Can't agree with you Abs. Look again Matthew at 24:38,39,40,41.

38 "until the day that Noah entered the ark" (too late, the stroke of judgment has come)
39 "until the flood came and took them all away" (judgment is now underway)
40 "taken" (a phenomenon occurring as a result of Judgement)
41 "taken" (a phenomenon occurring as a result of Judgement)

took them - taken - taken

It's pretty clear to me.....this has to be a judgment phenomenon.

 

[Absolutely]

"Abs, you're having ALL OF THE GUESTS [PLURAL] (LIKE WHO WERE IN ATTENDANCE in the John 2 event, with the governor of the feast and Jesus and His mother and hosts of guests), YOU have them ALL supposedly coming into the "marriage CHAMBER / ROOM" (the INTIMATE place) "

Exactly. I was trying to model that scenario re: the 10 virgins in post #517.

The newlywed Bride and Groom are ALREADY ensconced in the wedding chamber (in heaven) for their honeymoon. The 10 virgins don't live with the Bride under her very roof 24/7 waiting for the Groom to arrive. No, but these 10 Bridesmaids live in their own homes (on the earth) with their own families.

Now that the Groom has arrived like a thief in the night and has raptured away the Bride and has departed to the Father's house (to heaven), only THEN do these expectant Bridesmaids spring into service as they do not instantaneously know that this rapture has occurred. It comes as a surprise to them, as it does to the entire community.

HOWEVER, the news very quickly spreads around the villiage (on the earth) that the rapture has occurred. It becomes obvious to everyone.

It is the task of these bridesmaids to go around the village and INFORM all of the relevant parties that the wedding feast/supper/festivities are soon to begin.

These bridesmaids and the villagers do not meet the Groom again until He exits the wedding chamber (in heaven) (after seven days aka seven years!) for the Second Coming (to the earth) to enjoy the wedding supper/feast/festivities.

The point is that these Bridesmaids definitely do not go to heaven (the honeymoon bridal chamber) with the Bride and Groom. They are wedding guests....

There is no feast in the virgin parable. No " bridesmaids" in the parable either. Plus in the scenario you laid out the groom would be the husband dealing with young girls.

I dont know of any door that is not connected to a room...so yes Jesus takes his bride into a room and shuts the door.

That is exactly how it reads.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
" went into the marriage"
Under that declaration it is not a "already wed" husband taking young girls into a room and shutting the door????
No way are they "bridesmaids".

It is very vivid and says exactly what it says.

 

[Absolutely]

Can't agree with you Abs. Look again Matthew at 24:38,39,40,41.

38 "until the day that Noah entered the ark" (too late, the stroke of judgment has come)
39 "until the flood came and took them all away" (judgment is now underway)
40 "taken" (a phenomenon occurring as a result of Judgement)
41 "taken" (a phenomenon occurring as a result of Judgement)

took them - taken - taken

It's pretty clear to me.....this has to be a judgment phenomenon.

Nope
Re read it.
The SETTING is BEFORE the flood.
( you left it out)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were BEFORE THE FLOOD they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

That ain't going away.

 

[cv5]

There is no feast in the virgin parable. No " bridesmaids" in the parable either. Plus in the scenario you laid out the groom would be the husband dealing with young girls.

I dont know of any door that is not connected to a room...so yes Jesus takes his bride into a room and shuts the door.

That is exactly how it reads.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
" went into the marriage"
Under that declaration it is not a "already wed" husband taking young girls into a room and shutting the door????
No way are they "bridesmaids".

It is very vivid and says exactly what it says.

Heavens no. You're breaking the Jewish wedding ceremony structure and protocols. Which is the key to understanding this parable. And Jesus is definitely not a polygamist.

These 10 virgins are clearly bridesmaids are definitely not THE (ONE and only) BRIDE.

Furthermore v. 1 one says that the bridesmaids went out to MEET the bridegroom. In a wedding rapture is the groom who invades the house of the bride. The bride definitely does not come out to meet Him.

The marriage of verse 10 is certainly the wedding feast.

 

[TheLordIsMyRedeemer]

Rev 2
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev3
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Every bit of those verses ARE TO THE CHURCH.

Under your template your beliefs do not jive with all Jesus says.

In fact, Jesus warnings to the church are OPPOSITE what you are saying.
EXACTLY OPPOSITE.

What do you think the dynamic is behind the crowns rewarded to those EARNING them?

Let me tell you.
WORTHY VS UNWORTHY.

same thing in the rapture
Same thing in the 7 letters to the 7 churches
Same EXACT thing in the parable of the 10 virgins
....and the one taken/left.

All that....you need changed.

But what Jesus is telling you is a no brainer.
Carnal adulterous believers get no crowns and do not go in the rapture.
No way you can change that.

I find it odd you omit the 7 letters to the 7 churches that seal off any hope that some adulterous sinful carnal believers are going in the rapture.

I also think there is a faithful/unfaithful remnant. The glorified faithful remnant described as 'they that turn many to righteousness' in Daniel 12:1-3 will be the ones sharing the gospel with those who are in danger of becoming apostates (Isaiah 60:1-3, Mark 16:15, John 14:12). I believe in the possibility of apostasy.

Jesus said the 'gospel would be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.' Some view 'the end' as the start of Daniel's 70th week. I view 'the end' as the coming great tribulation in the Matthew 24:15 as the antichrist is revealed in 2 Thess 2:3.

The harvest would give these called out ones an opportunity to repent and return to the Lord before persecution comes from Mystery Babylon (Rev. 2:10, Rev. 17:6). There is the command for souls to 'come out of her my people' in Rev. 18:4.

Some souls will become martyrs for the Lord and they end up suffering loss. It is the martyrs of Mystery Babylon who are part of the 'rest of the dead' in Revelation 20:5. They do not live again until after the millennial reign.

It is probable that this harvest is the event that Ken Peters saw in his dream. Ken saw the resurrection of the dead but did not witness the rapture in the dream. It is clear 'we shall all be changed' according to 1 Cor. 15:51. The glorified faithful remnant and the martyrs of Mystery Babylon would both be caught up in the 'child' harpazo of Rev. 12:5 in this theory. I view this strict wall of separation that the 'church age' of the pre-trib theory has placed between Christians and other saints as somewhat problematic. I see Daniel's 70th week as a transitional period. This harvest/rapture within the tribulation of Daniel's 70th week is more likely in my view.

"Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent (Rev. 2:5). "This final harvest would be a final opportunity for those who are lukewarm to repent and return to the Lord before the rapture occurs.

 

[cv5]

Heavens no. You're breaking the Jewish wedding ceremony structure and protocols. Which is the key to understanding this parable. And Jesus is definitely not a polygamist.

These 10 virgins are clearly bridesmaids are definitely not THE (ONE and only) BRIDE.

Furthermore v. 1 one says that the bridesmaids went out to MEET the bridegroom. In a wedding rapture is the groom who invades the house of the bride. The bride definitely does not come out to meet Him.

The marriage of verse 10 is certainly the wedding feast.

In a Jewish wedding ceremony the groom actually comes into the house of the bride. Literally invades the house and snatches away the bride, while the parents and brothers are watching! The bride herself is completely passive and doesn't make a move does not depart the house.

 

[cv5]

I also think there is a faithful/unfaithful remnant. will be the ones sharing the gospel with those who are in danger of becoming apostates (Isaiah 60:1-3, Mark 16:15, John 14:12). I believe in the possibility of apostasy. The glorified faithful remnant described as 'they that turn many to righteousness' in Daniel 12:1-3

Jesus said the 'gospel would be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.' Some view 'the end' as the start of Daniel's 70th week. I view 'the end' as the coming great tribulation in the Matthew 24:15 as the antichrist is revealed in 2 Thess 2:3.

The harvest would give these called out ones an opportunity to repent and return to the Lord before persecution comes from Mystery Babylon (Rev. 2:10, Rev. 17:6). There is the command for souls to 'come out of her my people' in Rev. 18:4.

Some souls will become martyrs for the Lord and they end up suffering loss. It is the martyrs of Mystery Babylon who are part of the 'rest of the dead' in Revelation 20:5. They do not live again until after the millennial reign.

It is probable that this harvest is the event that Ken Peters saw in his dream. Ken saw the resurrection of the dead but did not witness the rapture in the dream. It is clear 'we shall all be changed' according to 1 Cor. 15:51. The glorified faithful remnant and the martyrs of Mystery Babylon would both be caught up in the 'child' harpazo of Rev. 12:5 in this theory. I view this strict wall of separation that the 'church age' of the pre-trib theory has placed between Christians and other saints as somewhat problematic. I see Daniel's 70th week as a transitional period. This harvest/rapture within the tribulation of Daniel's 70th week is more likely in my view.

"Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent (Rev. 2:5). "This final harvest would be a final opportunity for those who are lukewarm to repent and return to the Lord before the rapture occurs.

Daniel 12:1 frames everything in the context of the Great Tribulation. Which pertains only to Israel ("thy people" 2X!)....definitely not the Church.

v. 2 "many of them".....same group from v. 1.....Israelites.

v.3......same group.......Israelites.

 

[TheLordIsMyRedeemer]

Daniel 12:1 frames everything in the context of the Great Tribulation. Which pertains only to Israel ("thy people" 2X!)....definitely not the Church.

v. 2 "many of them".....same group from v. 1.....Israelites.

v.3......same group.......Israelites.

Yes, I'm aware that you are a proponent of the pre-trib theory, and the strict dispensationalism it entails. Understandably, I've received similar comments in the past when making reference to that scripture. I don't hold to the same interpretation of Daniel’s 70th week, with its stopping/starting 'prophetic clock' and intermittent 'gap,' into which the 'church age' is placed. I view it as a transitional period as I've mentioned in the past. That being said, I don't question the validity of it being framed in the context of the Great Tribulation and I appreciate your response. Scriptures pertaining to the glorified remnant have always intrigued me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Before the flood the groom comes for the virgins.
Watch and wait.

Before the flood the groom comes for the virgins.
Watch and wait.

You seem to really enjoy mixing reality with parables.

That is all 100% pretrib rapture.

Only IF there is a verse showing Jesus actually taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Which there isn't.

 

[ewq1938]

I believe scripture as it is written. And whether the rapture takes place pre or post tribulation is not a salvation issue. However, the thing that is most concerning is how people could be deceived. Those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture could unwittingly accept the mark of the beast thinking it is nothing more than a precursor. This because they don't believe they will be present on the Earth when the mark is instituted.

Apparently it is a salvation issue.