Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[1ofthem]

I just explained— they were imprisoned by the water— the idea that they are in a kind of purgatory after death is from Roman Catholicism which they got from commingling Christianity to create their demonic soup to deceive the masses— how important it is to test scripture against scripture and never isolate scripture as scripture never contradicts itself.

It is in the isolation of verses that all false doctrine derives from.

I said nothing about purgatory. I don't believe in anything close to the idea of purgatory. Like I just stated I don't believe there is a chance at redemption after death now. We live, we die, and then the judgment.

Imprisoned by water seems like just a reference to how they died. (Sodom and Gomorrah were set on fire by eternal fire) The main point is they are referred to as imprisoned spirits meaning they were/are still in existence. And they also seem to be conscious, seeing that Jesus went and preached to them.

Then we have the scripture that says the thief went to paradise that same day.

Yes, we know scripture never contradicts scripture and we know we can't just throw verses out, either. Like I said I haven't read through very much of this thread. I am going to read through it and consider it, but this may be one we end up disagreeing on.

As you said before, we are in agreement on so many things that there is bound to come a time that we will disagree on one point or another.

I'm not completely writing it off just yet, though.

 

[Laura798]

Yes, I agree that there is not a chance or opportunity for salvation after death, at this point.

The thing is these spirits were in prison. They hadn't ceased to exist.

Then you have the thief being promised paradise that same day.

Doesn't that sound a lot like the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus?

It seems to suggest that the unsaved go to prison waiting for the final judgment and the saved go to paradise waiting for the first resurrection when their spirit will be reunited with their bodies and they will be resurrected.

Dear1ofthem,
if a believer can enter straight into heaven without their wedding clothes (their immortal bodies) Then Christs return is a moot point. Also it means both believers and unbelievers would circumvent the jugment with is thoroughly unbiblical. It all must needs be mean the soul is immortal which is also unbiblical.
scripture says the dead in Christ will RISE at His second coming, not come down. God brings WITH Jesus the believers — the same way you may bring along a friend to a wedding. We will meet Christ in the air and God will bring us along with Christ. A very subtle but important theological difference.

"God will bring with Him thosewho have fallen asleep through Jesus." 1 Thessalonians 4:14,

 

[Runningman]

Runningman, I dont see anywhere that Phonemans position was debunked — he gave the most intelligent arguments on this entire thread with solid biblical support.

I disagree.

There is a name for the argument you are making here and i hope Im able to find it.

Good luck.

Saying his argument is debunked is no more true than the Pharisees saying Jesus had a demon.

Now you're way out of line. When the Pharisees said Jesus had a demon, Jesus said they had blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

Disagreeing with a mere man like Phoneman, who holds a false doctrine, and correcting it in a Bible discussion forum is not comparable to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. You're in a different universe right now. Come back!

Just because it doesnt align with your interpretation of scripture does not debunk his.

Read his OP again. His premise is that 1 Thess. 4 contains a chiasm, a type of Hebrew poem.

Keep in mind that 1 Thess. 4 is not a poem nor would the target audience of Gentile Thessalonians have understood that it's a Hebrew poem. 1 Thess. 4 is literal scripture.

Also keep in mind that Paul became what he needed to become to reach his audience. Paul would not have preached a Hebrew poem to Gentiles; that would be antithetical to Paul's strategy.

As always, inventing doctrines to circumvent the plain text reading of a scripture is a red flag. Apparently you can't see that.

He has given such good verses and explanations to what the soul is—to continue to believe what most of you believe is to be willfully blind to the truth.

It's interesting that those who accuse others of being willfully blind are often the blind. I don't think that's an accident, to be honest. Phoneman led you into a ditch and you don't want out.

 

[kleronomos]

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

You cannot kill or destroy or remove the Eternal Life that God has given to us in Christ.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
I and My Father are one.”

It would seem parables to day work as they always have. I am going to try to leave this conversation but thought I would repeat this one last time...and say God Bless and keep up the good work.

It all really comes down to this one verse.

John 11:25

Jesus said unto her,

I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

Believest thou this?



EITHER

HE IS THE RESURRECTION NOW/ PRESENTLY/HAS BEEN

OR

HE IS NOT THE RESURRECTION NOW, NOT AS OF YET - BUT SOMEDAY HE WILL BE/WILL BECOME THE RESURRECTION

 

[Laura798]

I said nothing about purgatory. I don't believe in anything close to the idea of purgatory. Like I just stated I don't believe there is a chance at redemption after death now. We live, we die, and then the judgment.

Imprisoned by water seems like just a reference to how they died. (Sodom and Gomorrah were set on fire by eternal fire) The main point is they are referred to as imprisoned spirits meaning they were/are still in existence. And they also seem to be conscious, seeing that Jesus went and preached to them.

Then we have the scripture that says the thief went to paradise that same day.

Yes, we know scripture never contradicts scripture and we know we can't just throw verses out, either. Like I said I haven't read through very much of this thread. I am going to read through it and consider it, but this may be one we end up disagreeing on.

As you said before, we are in agreement on so many things that there is bound to come a time that we will disagree on one point or another.

I'm not completely writing it off just yet, though.

drat! Timed out again— typing on my tiny iphone se doesnt help.😕
Dear1ofthem,
if a believer can enter straight into heaven without their wedding clothes (their immortal bodies) Then Christs return is a moot point. Also it means both believers and unbelievers would circumvent the jugment which is thoroughly unbiblical. It all must needs be mean the soul is immortal which is also unbiblical.
scripture says the dead in Christ will RISE at His second coming, not come down. God brings WITH Jesus the believers — the same way you may bring along a friend to a wedding. We will meet Christ in the air and God will bring us along with Christ. A very subtle but important theological difference.

"God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus." 1 Thessalonians 4:14,

Dear sister, ive observed that you are one of the few who questions and wants to truly understand the scriptures themselves— not what anyone else says. 😇✨

“Now the Berean Jews were of more noblecharacter than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”— Acts 17:11

 

[Runningman]

It would seem parables to day work as they always have. I am going to try to leave this conversation but thought I would repeat this one last time...and say God Bless and keep up the good work.

It all really comes down to this one verse.

John 11:25

Jesus said unto her,

I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

Believest thou this?



EITHER

HE IS THE RESURRECTION NOW/ PRESENTLY/HAS BEEN

OR

HE IS NOT THE RESURRECTION NOW, NOT AS OF YET - BUT SOMEDAY HE WILL BE/WILL BECOME THE RESURRECTION

I'm leaving with you... for real this time.

Spoiler: unless...

or until I see some low-hanging fruit again in this thread....

 

[kleronomos]

The problem with the "immortal soul" crowd" is that they refuse to accept the explicit Biblical description of what is a Soul (Genesis 2:7 KJV) and the mortal nature of it (James 5:20 KJV) and thus must resort to twisting other texts which are either less explicit or speak of the Soul poetically as "proof" of their doctrine.

Since a Soul only exists as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, at death the Soul ceases to exist and thus can't be carried anywhere by anyone...unless this is said to happen in parables like the Rich Man and Lazarus.

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

 

[Laura798]

I disagree.



Good luck.



Now you're way out of line. When the Pharisees said Jesus had a demon, Jesus said they had blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

Disagreeing with a mere man like Phoneman, who holds a false doctrine, and correcting it in a Bible discussion forum is not comparable to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. You're in a different universe right now. Come back!




Read his OP again. His premise is that 1 Thess. 4 contains a chiasm, a type of Hebrew poem.

Keep in mind that 1 Thess. 4 is not a poem nor would the target audience of Gentile Thessalonians have understood that it's a Hebrew poem. 1 Thess. 4 is literal scripture.

Also keep in mind that Paul became what he needed to become to reach his audience. Paul would not have preached a Hebrew poem to Gentiles; that would be antithetical to Paul's strategy.

As always, inventing doctrines to circumvent the plain text reading of a scripture is a red flag. Apparently you can't see that.



It's interesting that those who accuse others of being willfully blind are often the blind. I don't think that's an accident, to be honest. Phoneman led you into a ditch and you don't want out.

He didnt leaf me anywhere— i simply believe the scriptures themselves snd not what ive been taught by some denomination— nearly sll of which have been influenced by their mother, the Roman Catholic Church.
Its not an invention s— he has solid scriptures to support his position. And the example is not apples to apples— of course Im not saying you are sayinghe has a demon— that’s preposterous—it is about saying he’s wrong when he is using SCRIPTURE that cannot be refuted. You say it is an invention simply because it doesnt align eith YOUR doctrinal interpretation which is false on so many levels.

 

[kleronomos]

I'm leaving with you... for real this time.

Spoiler: unless...

or until I see some low-hanging fruit again in this thread....

for real this time too!! I hope

 

[1ofthem]

I'm leaving with you... for real this time.

Spoiler: unless...

or until I see some low-hanging fruit again in this thread....

for real this time too!! I hope

Well, now I'm not sure what to do?

Should I stay or should I go now? lol.

 

[Laura798]

Pagans and the many cults that reverberate the same blinded view, that Jesus simply didn’t mean what He actually said. There are several deaths spoken of in Scripture. To define any one of them without the proper context and exegesis is to be misled.[/QUOTE
please stop equating YOUR false doctrine as being equal to Jesus words.

 

[Laura798]

Well, now I'm not sure what to do?

Should I stay or should I go now? lol.[/QUOTE
please oh please 1ofthem NEVER follow the crowd! Its your choice!
but i will leave simply because i was taking a break from CC—and because I have packing to do!
bless you sister and blessings to you in the new year!🎉🥳

 

[1ofthem]

drat! Timed out again— typing on my tiny iphone se doesnt help.😕
Dear1ofthem,
if a believer can enter straight into heaven without their wedding clothes (their immortal bodies) Then Christs return is a moot point. Also it means both believers and unbelievers would circumvent the jugment which is thoroughly unbiblical. It all must needs be mean the soul is immortal which is also unbiblical.
scripture says the dead in Christ will RISE at His second coming, not come down. God brings WITH Jesus the believers — the same way you may bring along a friend to a wedding. We will meet Christ in the air and God will bring us along with Christ. A very subtle but important theological difference.

"God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus." 1 Thessalonians 4:14,

Dear sister, ive observed that you are one of the few who questions and wants to truly understand the scriptures themselves— not what anyone else says. 😇✨

“Now the Berean Jews were of more noblecharacter than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”— Acts 17:11

Thanks, sister.

 

[Laura798]

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

🤔

 

[1ofthem]

@Laura798

I was just joking. I'm silly like that sometimes.

Anyhow, blessings to you as well. And I'm still praying that all goes well with the move.

GBY

 

[DavidTree]

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection

And this is why they are Sad-U-cee

 

[Laura798]

@Laura798

I was just joking. I'm silly like that sometimes.

Anyhow, blessings to you as well. And I'm still praying that all goes well with the move.

GBY

🙂💖

 

[posthuman]

Hi 1ofthem,

they were those who died in the flood they were ‘imprisoned’ by the water. Of course once one has died there is no opportunity for salvation— through the power of the Holy Spirit via Noah the wicked people that were destroyed in the flood were preached to.

You are ignoring his point:

How is God preaching to the dead if God is annihilated and the dead are annihilated?
And why is God preaching salvation if there is no salvation?

You and tele-person are trying to tell me that Christ ceased to exist when He separated His spirit/soul from His earthly physical body.
@1ofthem has shown you that your narrative is inconsistent with scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh, so the body sleeps (dies) but the Soul doesn't sleep (die)?

There you go!

Scripture SHOWS that there are souls in heaven, talking no less! Jesus gave an account of 2 men who died and went to Sheol. One to Abraham's bosom and one to Torments. And the guy in Torments talked with Abraham. How is that sleep?

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is obviously s parable and to take it as a true story is embarrassing.

Quite the contrary, my dear sister. No parable contains proper names, and certainly NOT actual people (Abraham).

Jesus gave us a glimpse of life in Sheol for OT souls. Very clear.

If we followed this line of reasoning— because Jesus uses names, then one could say “Adam the ant sprayed fire out of his arse and set the whole country of your Europe ablaze with it. “ 🔥 and its true because you see i used a name…🙄

No, since it is YOU who said it, we don't have to trust the words. When Jesus said it, and named names, it is easy to believe.

What is the compelling reason to view it as a parable? And what was Jesus teaching in that supposed parable?

"All these things Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable.” —Matthew 13:34

Doesn't apply to Jesus' account of the souls in Sheol.