Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
- Thread starter Phoneman-777
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You’re using an appeal to having secret or privileged knowledge as a literary device to try to persuade others to try to follow you. The problem with that is that you don’t speak on authority of the scriptures and for several pages now people have shown you you’re wrong. This logical fallacy is known as appeal to the minority, e.g. "What I am saying is true because most people do not believe it."
It's also argumentum ad verecundiam, or an appeal to false authority. You quote your own opinions and authority as the source of truth. Obviously that's a big red flag.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 refutes your thesis.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 8Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.
It's also argumentum ad verecundiam, or an appeal to false authority. You quote your own opinions and authority as the source of truth. Obviously that's a big red flag.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 refutes your thesis.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 8Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Luke 16:22-23
One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.
And the rich man also died and was buried.
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
The Lord Jesus Christ says they died = their physical bodies went to the grave/earth.
Their soul went to the afterlife which is Hades for the wicked(rich man) and Paradise for the saved (Abraham).
Angels do not touch or carry dead bodies anywhere or at anytime.
Angels are spirit and they do escort the souls of the righteous.
Jesus is not bringing dead bodies with Him. Jesus is bringing the souls of those who are currently with Him for the Resurrection of their dead bodies which are sleeping in the dust of the earth.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Luke 16:22-23
One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.
And the rich man also died and was buried.
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
The Lord Jesus Christ says they died = their physical bodies went to the grave/earth.
Their soul went to the afterlife which is Hades for the wicked(rich man) and Paradise for the saved (Abraham).
Angels do not touch or carry dead bodies anywhere or at anytime.
Angels are spirit and they do escort the souls of the righteous.
Jesus is not bringing dead bodies with Him. Jesus is bringing the souls of those who are currently with Him for the Resurrection of their dead bodies which are sleeping in the dust of the earth.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
-
1
- Show all
"them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
When is God bringing dead people with Him? Dead people from heaven? Those in Christ are not dead. Dead people in the rapture? Those in the rapture are not dead anymore.
I think those who "sleep in Jesus" are actually sleeping this time.
Please explain how anyone who is dead is actually brought with God.
When is God bringing dead people with Him? Dead people from heaven? Those in Christ are not dead. Dead people in the rapture? Those in the rapture are not dead anymore.
I think those who "sleep in Jesus" are actually sleeping this time.
Please explain how anyone who is dead is actually brought with God.
DavidTree said:
Rich man and Lazarus do not have their physical bodies in Luke ch16 =
How else could the rich man recognize Abraham?
Rich man and Lazarus do not have their physical bodies in Luke ch16 =
How else could the rich man recognize Abraham?
-
1
- Show all
The inescapable conclusion is that there is no such thing as soul sleep. Jesus' account in Luke 16 of a beggar and rich man who died proves that the dead aren't sleeping.
Rev 6 and the 5th seal describe the souls of dead people in heaven asking for revenge and even shouting. They aren't sleeping.
Paul taught that being "absent from the body", meaning physical death when the soul leaves the body, is being "at home with the Lord".
Paul said nothing about the soul sleeping.
The better explanation of what "sleeping" refers to when describing someone who has died is that their physical body is sleeping. Which will be resurrected when Jesus comes.
Rev 6 and the 5th seal describe the souls of dead people in heaven asking for revenge and even shouting. They aren't sleeping.
Paul taught that being "absent from the body", meaning physical death when the soul leaves the body, is being "at home with the Lord".
Paul said nothing about the soul sleeping.
The better explanation of what "sleeping" refers to when describing someone who has died is that their physical body is sleeping. Which will be resurrected when Jesus comes.
-
2
- Show all
FreeGrace2 said:
Is this a defense for "soul sleep"?
All I wanted was the poster to clarify his position.
[QUOTE}And btw just because the majority believe something doesnt mean its true. [/QUOTE]
For sure.
Is this a defense for "soul sleep"?
All I wanted was the poster to clarify his position.
[QUOTE}And btw just because the majority believe something doesnt mean its true. [/QUOTE]
For sure.
Yes. Their bodies are sleeping and will be resurrected when He comes.
Their souls are very much alive. Rev 6 and the 5th seal prove that. As does the account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 and Jesus telling one of the thiefs that he would be with Him in Paradise.
But I guess those who hold to "soul sleep" must think that Jesus was inviting him to a sleep-over or something.
Their souls are very much alive. Rev 6 and the 5th seal prove that. As does the account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 and Jesus telling one of the thiefs that he would be with Him in Paradise.
But I guess those who hold to "soul sleep" must think that Jesus was inviting him to a sleep-over or something.
-
2
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Runningman, I dont see anywhere that Phonemans position was debunked — he gave the most intelligent arguments on this entire thread with solid biblical support. There is a name for the argument you are making here and i hope Im able to find it. Saying his argument is debunked is no more true than the Pharisees saying Jesus had a demon. Just because it doesnt align with your interpretation of scripture does not debunk his.
He has given such good verses and explanations to what the soul is—to continue to believe what most of you believe is to be willfully blind to the truth.
He has given such good verses and explanations to what the soul is—to continue to believe what most of you believe is to be willfully blind to the truth.
How does a dead body sleep exactly if it has no brain activity?
I challenge you to look up all the verse that use sleep interchangeably with death. It is the whole person who is sleeping. Jesus is coming to wake us up. Who is us? Our personhood, not our decaying bodies! What makes us a person— the breath of life that God gives us! look up the science of sleep— you will soon see it is impossible for a dead body to be asleep. Every single time Jesus woke someone from the sleep of death he woke them body AND soul. Jesus himself was dead in the grave three days as He said to Mary, “Touch me not, for I have NOT yet ascended to rhe Father.”
I challenge you to look up all the verse that use sleep interchangeably with death. It is the whole person who is sleeping. Jesus is coming to wake us up. Who is us? Our personhood, not our decaying bodies! What makes us a person— the breath of life that God gives us! look up the science of sleep— you will soon see it is impossible for a dead body to be asleep. Every single time Jesus woke someone from the sleep of death he woke them body AND soul. Jesus himself was dead in the grave three days as He said to Mary, “Touch me not, for I have NOT yet ascended to rhe Father.”
Apparently some think that Jesus was inviting the thief to a sleep-over or something.
Also the comma was added in the sentence— if you remove it it says I tell you today— that Christ pronouncing it on that day.
-
1
- Show all
Good Morning Sis,
Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor. And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
JESUS Emphasizes = Both men alive on earth in their physical bodies and fully conscious of their surroundings.
One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.
And the rich man also died and was buried.
JESUS Emphasizes = Both men died and their bodies in the grave/earth.
One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.
JESUS Emphasizes = full conciousness after death and spirit angels carrying the soul of the beggar, Lazarus, to Abraham's soul.
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
JESUS Emphasizes = full consciousness after death
So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’
JESUS Emphasizes = full consciousness after death
Why did JESUS tell us this supposed 'parable'???
FYI = a false teaching is one who denies the words of JESUS.
Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor. And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
JESUS Emphasizes = Both men alive on earth in their physical bodies and fully conscious of their surroundings.
One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.
And the rich man also died and was buried.
JESUS Emphasizes = Both men died and their bodies in the grave/earth.
One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.
JESUS Emphasizes = full conciousness after death and spirit angels carrying the soul of the beggar, Lazarus, to Abraham's soul.
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
JESUS Emphasizes = full consciousness after death
So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’
JESUS Emphasizes = full consciousness after death
Why did JESUS tell us this supposed 'parable'???
FYI = a false teaching is one who denies the words of JESUS.
-
1
- Show all
Oh, so the body sleeps (dies) but the Soul doesn't sleep (die)?
Lot: "Oh, let me escape hither...and my Soul shall live (and not die)."
Abraham: "Say thou art my sister...and my Soul shall live (and not die) because of thee."
John: "Every living Soul died in the sea".
Ezekiel: "The Soul that sinneth, it shall die".
Jeremiah: "And they (wicked souls) shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, Whose name is the Lord of hosts."
Matthew's talking about the bodies of SLEEPING SAINTS. Is English your first language or no?
The context of Luke is Jesus talking about what shall be in the resurrection, not the present.
Lot: "Oh, let me escape hither...and my Soul shall live (and not die)."
Abraham: "Say thou art my sister...and my Soul shall live (and not die) because of thee."
John: "Every living Soul died in the sea".
Ezekiel: "The Soul that sinneth, it shall die".
Jeremiah: "And they (wicked souls) shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, Whose name is the Lord of hosts."
Matthew's talking about the bodies of SLEEPING SAINTS. Is English your first language or no?
The context of Luke is Jesus talking about what shall be in the resurrection, not the present.
Jesus was not annihilated when His spirit/soul separated from His physical body
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while [the] ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while [the] ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
-
2
-
1
-
1
- Show all