How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[ewq1938]

"There are mortals of nations that are ruled over." Is that your answer to the question, or a joke?

Why would it be a joke? It's straight from scripture:

The thousand years is the rule with a rod of iron over the nations. It is not the length of a kingdom. The kingdom is eternal. Physically it is only in heaven at this time. It is here spiritually inside of believers now. It will be a physical reality after the second coming is completed.

Christ will exercise his Kingly authority on Earth when the 7th trump sounds:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The rod of iron reign only begins after Christ has come:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The saints reign will be on the Earth not from heaven:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the EARTH.

second coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

After the second coming:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



All these prove a literal kingdom with Christ and his saints physically here on the Earth literally ruling over human beings of various nations.

 

[ewq1938]

Oh my friend, you have yet to see holes in the post-trib theory, but they will be coming your way!

Over 4,500 posts and not one hole has been presented in Post-trib but we have exposed many many holes in Pre-trib like the rejection of the definition of Apostasia and the fact that the rapture cannot happen until after the man of sin is revealed which happens after the Great Tribulation has started so a rapture before it starts is impossible. Or the misuse of John 14:2-3 where there is nothing about Christ taking anyone back to heaven. And the other misuse of Rev 3:10 where only one church is kept from the hour of temptation. It doesn't say kept from the Great Tribulation and it doesn't apply to any other of the churches. Then of course there is the false claim that the church is not seen in Revelation after the 4th chapter when the church in the form of the 144k and the two witnesses and it's own two candlesticks which is two churches are very much there in Revelation and going through the Great Tribulation. Pre-trib has more holes than Swiss cheese! This is only a partial list!

 

[Charlie24]

Why would it be a joke? It's straight from scripture:

The thousand years is the rule with a rod of iron over the nations. It is not the length of a kingdom. The kingdom is eternal. Physically it is only in heaven at this time. It is here spiritually inside of believers now. It will be a physical reality after the second coming is completed.

Christ will exercise his Kingly authority on Earth when the 7th trump sounds:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The rod of iron reign only begins after Christ has come:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The saints reign will be on the Earth not from heaven:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the EARTH.

second coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

After the second coming:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



All these prove a literal kingdom with Christ and his saints physically here on the Earth literally ruling over human beings of various nations.

You are all over the place giving scripture from several different things and trying to make a singular point from it.

In other words you are taking scripture out of context for a purpose! From Rev. 2-20

I don't even know where to begin with this mess!

 

[Nehemiah6]

If that happens pre-trib then it excludes saints from the great tribulation.

That is not your concern. There are OT saints, NT saints, Tribulation saints, Millennial saints. They are all where God wants them. And we do not even know the half of it.

 

[Nehemiah6]

That a strong reason against the pre-trib rapture because what it does is leave part of the bride in the world to miss the supposed pre-trib wedding.

It is the Bridegroom who decides who the Bride will be. None of your concern.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Here's my question, if He didn't come back for them then how would they get in?

The five foolish virgins were excluded. So why would Christ return for them?

 

[Runningman]

Well, there seems to be the ultimate hole in the post-trib theory. Not to mention several other smaller ones.

If there is only one resurrection and it's at the Second Coming, all have been translated and given a glorified body.

How is the earth repopulated during the 1000 year reign?

All the saints now have glorified bodies, all the unbelievers are judged according to Matt. 25:31-46 and receive everlasting fire.

Where did all that multitude come from at the end of the 1000 year reign who Satan stirred up to rebellion?

That's a fair question. Check Revelation 20, paying close attention to verses 7-9, because there are mortal people with a sinful nature alive on the Earth during the 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom. When Satan is released from his prison, he is able to deceive them into amassing an army.

How is that possible? Sin isn't entirely eradicated during the Millenial Kingdom. Christ will reign until He has put all enemies under His feet:

1 Corinthians 15:25-28
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

What you're looking for is the New Heaven and New Earth. The heavens (outer space) and the earth are completely destroyed and made new. Sin is completely eradicated from creation:

2 Peter 3:10-13
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[ewq1938]

You are all over the place giving scripture from several different things and trying to make a singular point from it.

In other words you are taking scripture out of context for a purpose! From Rev. 2-20

I don't even know where to begin with this mess!

Nothing was taken out of context. You have no way to counter those scriptural facts so you just call it a mess and walk away. That's called dodging and side stepping.

 

[ewq1938]

It is the Bridegroom who decides who the Bride will be. None of your concern.

And Pre-trib separates bride so part of bride is missing the marriage. That's a concern to all because it's bad, unscriptural doctrine.

 

[1ofthem]

The five foolish virgins were excluded. So why would Christ return for them?

Thanks, I agree and that's all I needed to know.

My original conversation on this matter was with someone else.

 

[Charlie24]

Nothing was taken out of context. You have no way to counter those scriptural facts so you just call it a mess and walk away. That's called dodging and side stepping.

I'm pretty sure your side will fair better letting some others represent the case, at least they are in scripture context to the discussion!

 

[Charlie24]

That's a fair question. Check Revelation 20, paying close attention to verses 7-9, because there are mortal people with a sinful nature alive on the Earth during the 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom. When Satan is released from his prison, he is able to deceive them into amassing an army.

How is that possible? Sin isn't entirely eradicated during the Millenial Kingdom. Christ will reign until He has put all enemies under His feet:

1 Corinthians 15:25-28
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

What you're looking for is the New Heaven and New Earth. The heavens (outer space) and the earth are completely destroyed and made new. Sin is completely eradicated from creation:

2 Peter 3:10-13
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

We agree that there are mortal unbelievers that are present in the 1000 year reign!

But they are born into the 1000 year reign. Matt. 25:31-46 takes care of the unbelievers at the Second Coming.

Of course the sin nature is still present in the mortals, this is where the crowd arises that Satan leads into rebellion.

There are some theories as to what happens in Matt. 25:31-46 when Christ returns. Some say all the unbelievers are not sentenced to the "everlasting fire," but only the leaders and the people from the goat nations are allowed into the Kingdom with the sheep on the right hand. But this is not how the scripture reads in Matt. 25:31-46, imo.

How about reading that scripture and see what you take from it, get back with me.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm pretty sure your side will fair better letting some others represent the case, at least they are in scripture context to the discussion!

Nice try but most post-tribs are in agreement on these things. You are just dodging by making thinly veiled personal attacks, which is one of the main weapons in Pre-trib arsenal.

 

[Charlie24]

Nice try but most post-tribs are in agreement on these things. You are just dodging by making thinly veiled personal attacks, which is one of the main weapons in Pre-trib arsenal.

Whatever you say, friend!

 

[Runningman]

We agree that there are mortal unbelievers that are present in the 1000 year reign!

But they are born into the 1000 year reign. Matt. 25:31-46 takes care of the unbelievers at the Second Coming.

Of course the sin nature is still present in the mortals, this is where the crowd arises that Satan leads into rebellion.

There are some theories as to what happens in Matt. 25:31-46 when Christ returns. Some say all the unbelievers are not sentenced to the "everlasting fire," but only the leaders and the people from the goat nations are allowed into the Kingdom with the sheep on the right hand. But this is not how the scripture reads in Matt. 25:31-46, imo.

How about reading that scripture and see what you take from it, get back with me.

Matthew 25:31-46 is the great white throne judgment. That would be post-millennial kingdom just before the New Heaven and New Earth kingdom.

Yes, there is a kingdom in the New Earth too. The sheep are going to enter into the kingdom on the New Earth. The goats go to the lake of fire.

See Revelation 21.

I don't see any holes or problems with the post-trib rapture.

 

[Charlie24]

Matthew 25:31-46 is the great white throne judgment. That would be post-millennial kingdom just before the New Heaven and New Earth kingdom.

Yes, there is a kingdom in the New Heaven and New Earth too. The sheep are going to enter into the kingdom on the New Earth. The goats go to is the lake of fire.

See Revelation 21.

I don't see any holes or problems with the post-trib rapture.

I know for sure a few things about this scripture. It is the judgement of the nations.

They are not actually being judged for salvation here but for their treatment of Israel during the tribulation.

You notice Jesus repeated the lines, you gave me water when I was thirsty, I was hungry and you gave food.

But to the goat nations he said, you DID NOT ...................

This is referring to the nations who helped Israel during the tribulation-- the sheep nations,

and those who warred against them with the anti-christ, or took no action to help when they could have-- the goat nations.

I don't see this as the Great White Throne of Judgement.

The problem I see in our camp (the area near me who discuss this) is that we are split on who of the goat nations were sentenced to everlasting punishment. There are different theories, and that's the problem, it's yet another gap to fill.

I'm telling you, this rapture/resurrection thing is not easy and neither side can claim victory as yet, and probably never, until Christ shows or tells us!

 

[Charlie24]

I know for sure a few things about this scripture. It is the judgement of the nations.

They are not actually being judged for salvation here but for their treatment of Israel during the tribulation.

You notice Jesus repeated the lines, you gave me water when I was thirsty, I was hungry and you gave food.

But to the goat nations he said, you DID NOT ...................

This is referring to the nations who helped Israel during the tribulation-- the sheep nations,

and those who warred against them with the anti-christ, or took no action to help when they could have-- the goat nations.

I don't see this as the Great White Throne of Judgement.

The problem I see in our camp (the area near me who discuss this) is that we are split on who of the goat nations were sentenced to everlasting punishment. There are different theories, and that's the problem, it's yet another gap to fill.

I'm telling you, this rapture/resurrection thing is not easy and neither side can claim victory as yet, and probably never, until Christ shows or tells us!

Oh and what I forgot to say is that Matt. 25:31-46 takes place at the Second Coming, the beginning of the 1000 year reign, and the GWTJ takes place after Satan is cast in hell at the end of the 1000 year reign.

Rev. 20:5 says that "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years expired." These are judged at the GWTJ.

So there is a 1000 years between the two events.

 

[Laura798]

Many critical of the differences without consideration that they were humans in action of writing.

I compare Matthew, Mark, Luke and John's Gospel account of Chris'st era in the Bible to 4 people standing around when a accident happened and there were four accounts of details. Each would be different.
It takes away no authenticity of the subject.

Yes I agree and that was the point I was attempting to make. I think you were affirming what I was saying, right?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Matthew 25:31-46 is the great white throne judgment.

There are no nations being judged at the Great White Throne. So that is incorrect. Only individuals who have been brought out of Hades for their final judgment.

 

[ewq1938]

There are no nations being judged at the Great White Throne. So that is incorrect. Only individuals who have been brought out of Hades for their final judgment.

That's the same thing. The nations/ethnos are individuals. It is not word as a country or government type of nation. You have to look at it from the perspectiove of the Greek language not English. Doing that is ALWAYS a mistake like the mistake you have made here.

The word has been translated as, Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
Total KJV occurrences: 164