How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Nehemiah6]

That's the same thing. The nations/ethnos are individuals.

Nations are not individuals and vice versa. So are you just kidding yourself?

 

[ewq1938]

Nations are not individuals and vice versa. So are you just kidding yourself?

No, I am correcting your error by showing what the Greek word actually means.

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Those represent individuals.

 

[Laura798]

Rev 19 he does NOT come to bring salvation. He comes to destroy.
THANK YOU for illustrating the rapture is NOT the second coming in white horses.

No matter what....Jesus does not touch the ground in 1 thes 4 or rev 14:14.

So that hurts those positions denying that

Hmm? So I'm confused--you are responding to PAUL'S words....and? What's your point exactly?

 

[Runningman]

I know for sure a few things about this scripture. It is the judgement of the nations.

They are not actually being judged for salvation here but for their treatment of Israel during the tribulation.

You notice Jesus repeated the lines, you gave me water when I was thirsty, I was hungry and you gave food.

But to the goat nations he said, you DID NOT ...................

This is referring to the nations who helped Israel during the tribulation-- the sheep nations,

and those who warred against them with the anti-christ, or took no action to help when they could have-- the goat nations.

I don't see this as the Great White Throne of Judgement.

The problem I see in our camp (the area near me who discuss this) is that we are split on who of the goat nations were sentenced to everlasting punishment. There are different theories, and that's the problem, it's yet another gap to fill.

I'm telling you, this rapture/resurrection thing is not easy and neither side can claim victory as yet, and probably never, until Christ shows or tells us!

Big hint that this is not on Earth is that the goats go to the lake of fire after their judgement. There is no lake of fire, eternal fire, etc. spoken of in scripture that is on Earth. The only time and place where anyone or anything goes to a lake of fire is after the great white throne judgement and it occurs after the second resurrection where unbelievers go to their second death. (Revelation 20: 11-15)

Keep in view the question you asked, how are there mortal humans on Earth in light of Matthew 25:31-46? Simple answer is that Matthew 25:31-46 is not on Earth or that would stand in contradiction to Revelation 20:7-9. My interpretation, which I don't believe is mine but rather the Biblical interpretation, has no contradictions. Your interpretation does not stand to scrutiny and scripture refutes it.

 

[ewq1938]

Big hint that this is not on Earth is that the goats go to the lake of fire after their judgement. There is no lake of fire, eternal fire, etc. spoken of in scripture that is on Earth. The only time and place where anyone or anything goes to a lake of fire is after the great white throne judgement and it occurs after the second resurrection where unbelievers go to their second death. (Revelation 20: 11-15)

Yes, that is correct.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Earth and heaven fleeing away means this is a place away from both Heaven and Earth.

 

[Runningman]

There are no nations being judged at the Great White Throne. So that is incorrect. Only individuals who have been brought out of Hades for their final judgment.

The KJV uses the word "nations", but perhaps I took for granted that we all knew this is not a reference to the various nationalities and countries. Nations is actually the Greek word ethnos and it's a reference to race/ethnicity; it's referring to non-Jewish people, but Matthew 25:31-46 is not a standalone passage sufficient to define who a true Jew is; the goats are unbelievers (spiritually non-Jewish people) who have rejected Christ, the world Savior. As we all know, a true Jew is one who has a circumcised heart and spirit per Romans 2:29.

Here's your actual Biblical definition of what the "nations" are:

G1484 - ethnos - a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Tell me, who do you think these people are in Revelation 20?

Rev. 20:11-12
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

If you guessed they are unbelievers with hearts and spirits that are not circumcised (spiritually non-Jewish) then you guessed correctly. They are the "nations."

 

[Laura798]

Well, there seems to be the ultimate hole in the post-trib theory. Not to mention several other smaller ones.

If there is only one resurrection and it's at the Second Coming, all have been translated and given a glorified body.

How is the earth repopulated during the 1000 year reign?

All the saints now have glorified bodies, all the unbelievers are judged according to Matt. 25:31-46 and receive everlasting fire.

Where did all that multitude come from at the end of the 1000 year reign who Satan stirred up to rebellion?

Dear Friend,

The hole in the theory is taken away when you realize that there is no literal 1000 year reign and that Christ is reigning now!

Again I say-look up the word 1000 and its use in scripture it is always FIGURATIVE.

"My kingdom is not of this world" --and if it wasn't then it certainly isn't going to be in the future.

 

[Charlie24]

Big hint that this is not on Earth is that the goats go to the lake of fire after their judgement. There is no lake of fire, eternal fire, etc. spoken of in scripture that is on Earth. The only time and place where anyone or anything goes to a lake of fire is after the great white throne judgement and it occurs after the second resurrection where unbelievers go to their second death. (Revelation 20: 11-15)

Keep in view the question you asked, how are there mortal humans on Earth in light of Matthew 25:31-46? Simple answer is that Matthew 25:31-46 is not on Earth or that would stand in contradiction to Revelation 20:7-9. My interpretation, which I don't believe is mine but rather the Biblical interpretation, has no contradictions. Your interpretation does not stand to scrutiny and scripture refutes it.

I would say that is quite a leap of faith to consider Matt. 25:31-46 as taking place in heaven.

But if that's the way you see it, ok!

 

[DavidTree]

Nations are not individuals and vice versa. So are you just kidding yourself?

Are not nations comprised of people? Can you have a nation without individuals?

PEACE

 

[Charlie24]

Dear Friend,

The hole in the theory is taken away when you realize that there is no literal 1000 year reign and that Christ is reigning now!

"My kingdom is not of this world" --and if it wasn't then it certainly isn't going to be in the future.

Not sure if it was you or another, I'm thinking Miss Laura, though. See if this rings a bell or sounds a whistle.

John 18:36

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Jesus said now is not my Kingdom, but it's gonna be!

Matt. 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

This is when His Kingdom will be of this world! Do you recognize when that is?

 

[ewq1938]

Again I say-look up the word 1000 and its use in scripture it is always FIGURATIVE.

The Greek word G5507 chilioi never is used figuratively. The word has a specific meaning in Greek as the number of a thousand of something single, in this case a thousand of a year or a "thousand years" which is why it is a plural word. The Greek language also has a version of the word that means one thing that equals a thousand which is why that word is written in the singular. It's like having a thousand one dollar bills vs. having a thousand dollar bill.

Either way, G5507 chilioi cannot and does not mean more or less than exactly a thousand.

 

[Runningman]

I would say that is quite a leap of faith to consider Matt. 25:31-46 as taking place in heaven.

But if that's the way you see it, ok!

Actually, the GWTJ apparently is not in Heaven or Earth. Please see post #4665 by @ewq1938.

Please tell me, which scripture talks about a lake of fire, or eternal fire, on the Earth? (and if you can't find one, why do you believe there is a lake of fire on earth?)

I'll wait for your answer.

 

[ewq1938]

Please tell me, which scripture talks about a lake of fire, or eternal fire, on the Earth? (and if you can't find one, why do you believe there is a lake of fire on earth?)

I'll wait for your answer.

Where do you think it is?

 

[DavidTree]

Dear Friend,

The hole in the theory is taken away when you realize that there is no literal 1000 year reign and that Christ is reigning now!

Again I say-look up the word 1000 and its use in scripture it is always FIGURATIVE.

"My kingdom is not of this world" --and if it wasn't then it certainly isn't going to be in the future.

Dear Sister, i agree that there is some symbolism in Revelation such as the Dragon to describe satan.

The Thousand Year Reign is a literal period of time that God firmly established in Genesis but because of sin, man fell short of it.

PEACE

 

[Runningman]

Where do you think it is?

Now I think it's what you said in post #4665, it's not in Heaven or Earth. That rules out the possibility that the "lake of fire" is a reference to the Earth's interior of molten magma. The GWTJ and the lake of fire are somewhere else that we don't seem to know where exactly.

Revelation 20:11
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 

[ewq1938]

Now I think it's what you said in post #4665, it's not in Heaven or Earth. That rules out the possibility that the "lake of fire" is a reference to the Earth's interior of molten magma. The GWTJ and the lake of fire are somewhere else that we don't seem to know where exactly.

The pit and Hades (possibly the same place) is said to be located in the Earth but certainly the GWTJ and LOF is not based on that scripture. It makes sense to me to have such a terrible place so far away from what will be a paradise for all eternity.

 

[GaryA]

That's the same thing. The nations/ethnos are individuals. It is not word as a country or government type of nation. You have to look at it from the perspectiove of the Greek language not English. Doing that is ALWAYS a mistake like the mistake you have made here.

The word has been translated as, Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
Total KJV occurrences: 164

Wonderful!

Somebody else understands that "before him shall be gathered all nations" is referring to "the whole population" (of the earth - as individuals) rather than "this nation is a sheep, this nation is a goat"...

 

[Charlie24]

Actually, the GWTJ apparently is not in Heaven or Earth. Please see post #4665 by @ewq1938.

Please tell me, which scripture talks about a lake of fire, or eternal fire, on the Earth? (and if you can't find one, why do you believe there is a lake of fire on earth?)

I'll wait for your answer.

I'm sorry Runningman, I can't agree with your buddy on this one!

"From whose face the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them" actually means,

The old earth and heaven are passing away, being cleansed, making way for the NEW heaven and earth, Rev. 21:1.

That which was stained by sin, has no more place.

Rev. 12:1 is just 4 verses away and explains what is happening!

 

[ewq1938]

I'm sorry Runningman, I can't agree with your buddy on this one!

"From whose face the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them" actually means,

The old earth and heaven are passing away, being cleansed, making way for the NEW heaven and earth, Rev. 21:1.

That proves the Earth and Heaven fleeing is not the NHNE because the GWTJ happens in Revelation 20, and the New Heaven and new Earth happens in Revelation 21.

 

[Charlie24]

That proves the Earth and Heaven fleeing is not the NHNE because the GWTJ happens in Revelation 20, and the New Heaven and new Earth happens in Revelation 21.

No, it just means the old sin stained world is passing away before Him who sits on the throne.

The new world that God originally intended is now arriving. That's all it means!

It's a new world with a new beginnig!