How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[1ofthem]

I'm a little busy ATM so I'm just skimming through your posts.

Thanks for all the replies, though. I'll try to make time to look at them more closely later.

They had dirty robes that needed washing.
They are the ones left behind and martyred.
They are the ones left behind "BEFORE THE FLOOD" (judgement.)
The "one taken" is the 5 wise virgins.

 

[1ofthem]

Ok we can take dynamics past simplicity.

For example describe to me in detail what Jesus does as far as the actual consumation in that marriage chamber that the wise virgins went into.

Because you seem to make THAT your pivot point for ALL understanding.
In other words you have a reason (whether it's right or wrong ) for ascribing a dynamic that "virgins" applies to heathens. Personally I have a huge problem with trying to make believers that have a light, Holy Spirit ,lamps ,and are waiting for Jesus ,alongside, "on fire" sold out believers ,into heathens. That is a huge red flag when that is made to say something else and so I just simply ascribe another meaning it.

Virgins are indeed virgins

What makes you believe that the 5 foolish virgins ever enter into the kingdom?

There is nothing that I see that offers or even suggests another chance.

To take these verses to say that the 5 foolish are "the left behind" and the bridegroom is coming back again to retrieve them is adding to the scripture...IMHO.

 

[DavidTree]

David, I'll give it to you for bringing up very difficult things to explain, lol!

I can't explain this in words but I believe I have captured it in my mind. I will give you the words of a great scholar I highly trust, of course he's passed on now, but see it you can make sense of what he has said here!

This is concerning Heb. 9:28.

"The phrase. "As it is appointed unto men once to die," in effect, gives us the reason for the great sacrifice of Christ. Due to the fall, man brought upon himself the sentence of death. He separated himself from God, who is man's life source, and that separation being effected, death was and is inevitable.

In fact, before the fall, man was destined to live forever, and this speaks of physical life as well as spiritual life, however, with spiritual life forfeited, physical life was doomed, hence all the sickness, disease, afflictions, inevitably leading to death."

He goes on to say (i'm tired of typing this) "Looking about us. and understanding that all men must die, AND BECAUSE OF SIN HAVE DIED..."

It looks to me that he is referring this "appointment for men to die" as the spiritual death we are sentenced to before we come to Christ. Then the judgement that comes when "He will appear the second time" will determine what we did individually with that spiritual death, did we accept Christ and escape this death, or are still dead and will suffer the Judgement.

Does that make any sense to you?

Makes perfect sense and is half truth.

The error is: "he is referring this "appointment for men to die" as the spiritual death we are sentenced to before we come to Christ. Then the judgement that comes when "He will appear the second time"."

The judgement of both spiritual death and physical death was immediate upon Adam & Eve when they sinned.

The spiritual death ocurred in a 'atomos of time' = split second the moment the forbidden fruit hit their lips.

The physical death also ocurred the moment they ate the forbidden fruit.
Why then did they not drop dead that instant???

HALLELUYAH = God's Plan of GRACE & MERCY = the GOSPEL of GOD

Truly physical death entered their bodies along with spiritual death at the same moment.

The physical death had a time stamp on it according to the Will of God.
Man was created to live a thousand years but sin entered into man and those years were cut short by sin which is death.

It is written: It is appointed for man once to die after death the Judgment.

God covered Adam & Eve's sin with a blood sacrifice of a lamb and as long as they remained under this Grace, God would receive them into Eternal Life once the True Lamb came and shed His Blood for ALL the world.

Now you may say to yourself, no DavidTree - that's not how i see it, you may but hopefully not and in case you do;
CHRIST has the Remedy for you to SEE = John 3:18

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”

Back to Hebrews 9:28
so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many;
and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

You die twice or You die ONCE and LIVE TWICE = take your pick

Salvation is TWICE = His First Coming for remission of sin and His Second Coming for Resurrection unto Eternal Life.

Death is TWICE = All have sinned and fallen short of His Glory an AFTER death the Judgement

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection!

The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years. Rev 20:4-6

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

The FATHER SON and HOLY SPIRIT wrote a Children's book so that simple minded, everyday children can read and understand.

Page 1 reads - It is written: not of works lest any man should boast

Page 2 reads - It is written: not by might nor by power but by My Spirit says the LORD

There is much more the Spirit wants to share with you on this but i have to go now , however, if you have the Spirit then do not grieve HIM by adding to or taking away from His words and HE shall open and enlarge the borders of your understanding.
PEACE

 

[DavidTree]

Half the church misses the rapture.
They stay andd face the AC, refuse the mark, and are martyred.

To just assume they are not believers is not in line with the text. They can CLEARLY be seen as believers.
And remember, Jesus said TO BELIEVERS pray that ye may be counted WORTHY to escape the things about to come to upon the earth....."
That is vividly depicting " worthy elect vs unworthy elect" and "escaping vs not escaping"

Then in rev it says. TO THE CHURCH "because you have kept the word of my testimony( condition) i will also keep yoi from the trial about to come upon the entire world" ( some kept out..some not....equals some are worthy)

Them we see in rev if you are wish washy CHRISTIAN ...Jesus will spew you out of his mouth.

So yes, the 5 foolish are unmistakenly believers.

This is not in the KJV so it must be in the LBV

'Left Behind' Version of the Bible...................

 

[lamad]

Where do people come up with such nonsense?

It is a legitimate scripture and question so it is not nonsense.

 

[DavidTree]

It is a legitimate scripture and question so it is not nonsense.

i apologize and please forgive me for my haste as i was responding to 'nonsense' as well.

In your Post #4,572, you responded to member 1ofthem who said:
"Pre-trib would have us believe that the bridegroom is coming back to get them at another time."

This is, in fact, the position that some members on here hold/believe and have posted as 'pre-trib' doctrine.

Member 1ofthem was referring to those previous pre-trib Posts.

You responded to her Post with "Where do people come up with such nonsense?"

So the 'nonsense' comes not from Member 1ofthem.

Now to your very legitimate question: Post #4,572 = "Will those left behind, the "remnant" of Rev. 12, be a part of the Bride, or will they only be guests if they refuse the mark and become one of the beheaded?"

#1.) Not one of His Saints are 'left behind' - this is nonsense and not found in Scripture.
#2.) All Saints are part of His Body and will be Resurrected at His Second Coming
#3.) 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 , 1 John 2:18-19 & 3:1-3 , Revelation 6:9-11

 

[Nehemiah6]

"Pre-trib would have us believe that the bridegroom is coming back to get them at another time."

As a matter of fact that is NOT nonsense. Christ (the Lamb) is the divine Bridegroom and the Church is the Bride of Christ. Since there is the Marriage of the Lamb in Revelation 19, it follows (according to Hebrew custom) that the Bridegroom comes for the Bride before the Marriage occurs. And so it is at the Resurrection/Rapture. This is one of the strongest reasons why there is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

 

[Absolutely]

What makes you believe that the 5 foolish virgins ever enter into the kingdom?

There is nothing that I see that offers or even suggests another chance.

To take these verses to say that the 5 foolish are "the left behind" and the bridegroom is coming back again to retrieve them is adding to the scripture...IMHO.

They are left behind just like it says.
They go to heaven via refusing the mark.
The innumerable number came out of the gt. Definately martyrs.
They had dirty robes.
They washed their dirty robes.

 

[DavidTree]

As a matter of fact that is NOT nonsense. Christ (the Lamb) is the divine Bridegroom and the Church is the Bride of Christ. Since there is the Marriage of the Lamb in Revelation 19, it follows (according to Hebrew custom) that the Bridegroom comes for the Bride before the Marriage occurs. And so it is at the Resurrection/Rapture. This is one of the strongest reasons why there is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

i want to give your Post a HIGH WINNER but i can't because you added 'pre-trib' to it.

Drop the pre-trib and you are Right ON Target.

Remember the 'nonsense' is referring only to mistaken belief of "Christ leaves Saints behind."

PEACE to you Brother in CHRIST betrothed to HIM by the call of the FATHER thru Grace and Faith - AMEN

 

[1ofthem]

As a matter of fact that is NOT nonsense. Christ (the Lamb) is the divine Bridegroom and the Church is the Bride of Christ. Since there is the Marriage of the Lamb in Revelation 19, it follows (according to Hebrew custom) that the Bridegroom comes for the Bride before the Marriage occurs. And so it is at the Resurrection/Rapture. This is one of the strongest reasons why there is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

I'm not sure if if I can will clear this up or not....

But here goes nothing... I was speaking of the 5 foolish virgins in that statement.

Maybe I am not conveying the sentiments of pre-tribe position on the 5 foolish correctly...IDK

Here's my question, if He didn't come back for them then how would they get in?

 

[1ofthem]

They are left behind just like it says.
They go to heaven via refusing the mark.
The innumerable number came out of the gt. Definately martyrs.
They had dirty robes.
They washed their dirty robes.

If they had dirty robes at the time of his coming, then were they actually saved to begin with?

How did they wash their robes? Aren't we washed and clean in the blood of the Lamb the instance we are truly saved?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This view strikes me as a stubborn knot that need be untangled, although, frankly, I don't have the energy to attempt at this time, especially after times I exert that much energy presenting several evenly combed silky strands. I'm particularly at a juncture where I'd rather conserve my energy conversing with those that are actually listening rather than offering any pretense of it, and I certainly do not feel any need to thank them for offering even a little pretense. I'm not judging either way this is the case with you specifically, as I said I just haven't the energy. However, I'll actually return when I have gathered the sufficient energy to put into it and actually consider your assertion to have a possibility of credence, rather than approach it to with a certainty there must be something wrong because it does not shine as it waves in the wind.

I guess perhaps I was mistaken in assuming (by the tenor of your post / response to @Laura798 ) that you agreed with her words, rather than opposed what she was saying:

Laura798 said: Matthew 24 (know this--Christ is coming suddenly, but not secretly--and the taken are compared to those 'taken' in the flood)

...which perspective I myself agree with

(though I differ in that I am "pre-trib" and do not believe these "taken and left" passages speak to "our Rapture," but rather His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 point in the chronology instead)


Forgive me for mis-reading your intentions thinking you were agreeing on Laura798's point about the "taken" being the ones "taken away in judgment"... I see now that perhaps I misunderstood the point of your response to her in that post. = )

 

[1ofthem]

They are left behind just like it says.
They go to heaven via refusing the mark.
The innumerable number came out of the gt. Definately martyrs.
They had dirty robes.
They washed their dirty robes.

In the parable of the virgins... I don't see any verses where it states they were left behind and given another chance?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In the parable of the virgins... I don't see any verses where it states they were left behind and given another chance?

Many of us "pre-tribbers" (I am one ) see this passage NOT as being a "rapture" passage, but set in the context of His Second Coming to the earth / His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19), just as Luke 12:36-37,38,40 (and parallel) is speaking of: "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347] (i.e. the earthly MK age).

I realize there are a few "pre-tribbers" in this particular thread who do not see it this way, believing it IS a "rapture" context instead (I do not).

 

[1ofthem]

Many of us "pre-tribbers" (I am one ) see this passage NOT as being a "rapture" passage, but set in the context of His Second Coming to the earth / His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19), just as Luke 12:36-37,38,40 (and parallel) is speaking of: "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347] (i.e. the earthly MK age).

I realize there are a few "pre-tribbers" in this particular thread who do not see it this way, believing it IS a "rapture" context instead (I do not).

Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me

 

[ewq1938]

As a matter of fact that is NOT nonsense. Christ (the Lamb) is the divine Bridegroom and the Church is the Bride of Christ. Since there is the Marriage of the Lamb in Revelation 19, it follows (according to Hebrew custom) that the Bridegroom comes for the Bride before the Marriage occurs. And so it is at the Resurrection/Rapture. This is one of the strongest reasons why there is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

That a strong reason against the pre-trib rapture because what it does is leave part of the bride in the world to miss the supposed pre-trib wedding. It also makes those of the bride that die in the Great Tribulation to miss the first resurrection. The rapture being after the Great Tribulation does not leave any part of the bride in the world, does not make part of the bride miss the wedding or first resurrection.

Pre-trib also violates the fact that the revealing of the man of sin happens before the rapture happens.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ The "5 wise VirginS [plural]" are not who Jesus is coming to "MARRY"... though they are indeed "saved" persons.

He will be coming at that point (His Second Coming to the earth) as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom. Then the next scene takes up "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (the earthly MK age--and the "5 wise VirginS [plural]" ENTRANCE into THAT)


Luke 12:36-37,38,40 (and its parallel passage)... same thing... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (as ALREADY-WED at that point)... THEN the meal [G347 (and related passages connected with this word)]

 

[ewq1938]

^ The "5 wise VirginS [plural]" are not who Jesus is coming to "MARRY"... though they are indeed "saved" persons.

How can they be saved when Jesus doesn't know them?

"5 wise VirginS [plural]

There is no valid reason to tell people virgins with an S means it is plural. You are added unnecessary things in your posts which makes them barely readable. I skip over 99 percent of your posts because of this nonsense.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

How can they be saved when Jesus doesn't know them?

I said this:

TheDivineWatermark said:
^ The "5 wise VirginS [plural]"


Jesus does NOT tell the "5 WISE Virgins" He does not know them.

Are you perhaps just skimming over written words and not actually comprehending them?

I skip over 99 percent of your posts because of this nonsense.

Hmmm... I see.



Put on your reading glasses, dear

 

[Runningman]

As a matter of fact that is NOT nonsense. Christ (the Lamb) is the divine Bridegroom and the Church is the Bride of Christ. Since there is the Marriage of the Lamb in Revelation 19, it follows (according to Hebrew custom) that the Bridegroom comes for the Bride before the Marriage occurs. And so it is at the Resurrection/Rapture. This is one of the strongest reasons why there is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

"The Bridegroom comes before the marriage occurs." If that happens pre-trib then it excludes saints from the great tribulation. While they're up in heaven eating, drinking, making merry, and get married, all of the other brides are suffering great tribulation. I don't believe God will allow that, do you?

The reason for this is that the pre-tribulation rapture theology has holes in it because it isn't scriptural. That much is obvious to many of us here in this thread.

If you care about the integrity of the scriptures, and I think you do deep down, you have to admit that the only way it makes sense is if the gathering to the marriage is post-tribulation.

It turns out that the Bible does teach the post-tribulation gathering. That's what we've been trying to show you for a while now. Do you see it yet?