How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[DavidTree]

Our big disagreement is not with the words in this passage but answered the question WHEN. WHEN will Jesus come for His church? (This passage is pointed to Gentile believers.)

You said: "This passage is pointed to Gentile believers."

This is adding to God's words - BAD - resist the temptation of the evil one to add to God's words.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians ch4

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. Romans 10:12


But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his trickery, your minds will be led astray from sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, this you tolerate very well! 2 Cor 11:3

You asked: "WHEN will Jesus come for His church?"

God's Answer: And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

WHEN??? = His Second Coming = that's when = there will only be ONE Second Coming of Christ justs as HE said = Matt ch24

 

[DavidTree]

This is not rocket science: there are always and forever only TWO resurrections: one for the righteous and one for the damned.
ALL the righteous (Jesus included) will take part in the CHIEF of all resurrections - the one john called "the first" in most English translations.

Next, ALL the unrighteous will take part in the last resurrection John told us of.

This is correct except for one major blunder you said: "(Jesus included) will take part in the CHIEF of all resurrections"

JESUS is the RESURRECTION = HE does not take part = HE is the PART

the LORD is not waiting to take part in the Resurrection = HE is the RESURRECTION on whom we wait to take part in.

and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath. 1 Thess 1:10

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thess 4:16

 

[lamad]

Yeah, I never intended this to become an argument. I was just stating what was true.

Ha ha ha! Now that was FUNNY! You started out in error! Paul taught pretrib first.

 

[ewq1938]

Ha ha ha! Now that was FUNNY! You started out in error! Paul taught pretrib first.

Paul taught post-trib not pre-trib. He warned against pre-trib when he taught the man of sin had to be revealed before our gathering to Christ. Pre-trib teaches there is a rapture before the revealing of the man of sin, directly against what the Apostle Paul taught.



2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


Do not be confused about the return of Christ or OUR gathering to Him (the rapture), that it can happen at any moment because it will NOT happen at any moment. Paul is speaking about the Church and when Christ comes for her.

The doctrine of the pre-trib rapture states that Christ can secretly return at "any moment" yet Paul is clear to rebuke that doctrine saying not to believe anyone who claims that.


"nor by letter as from us"

Paul mentions even a former letter of his, because of a confusing statement he made concerning Christs return, the very verses that today's pre-tribbers use errantly:



1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.



Paul said it was misunderstood then, and it is still being misunderstood to this very day. Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians was meant to clear up any confusion which apparently was not successful.




2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Don't let anyone, even a fellow Christian deceive you otherwise! Christ's return SHALL NOT COME until the Apostasy happens FIRST. The Apostasy is when Christians stop worshiping Christ and start worshiping the antichrist. Christ will not return until that terrible thing happens, and not until the man of sin is revealed.

 

[GaryA]

Question: are the signs in the Sun and Moon in Matthew 24 are the same very signs of the sun and moon John wrote at the 6th seal?

Yes.

The same signs:

Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25-26
Revelation 6:12-13
Acts 2:20
Isaiah 13:10

And, you should find that these signs match some of the Trumpet Events.

 

[Absolutely]

Double post

 

[walknlight]

Hi!

Yes.

The same signs:

Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25-26
Revelation 6:12-13
Acts 2:20
Isaiah 13:10

And, you should find that these signs match some of the Trumpet Events.

Missed a few
Ezek 32:7
Joel 2:31
Joel 3:15

"lamad said: Question: are the signs in the Sun and Moon in Matthew 24 are the same very signs of the sun and moon John wrote at the 6th seal?"
In comparison , no.

God Bless!

 

[iTheophilus]

Greetings, @Absolutely

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (NKJV)

Paul is saying: But I don't want you to be ignorant about those who have died, brethren, lest you mourn as others who have lost hope. Because if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, God will also bring those who sleep in Jesus with Him. For this reason, we say to you by the word of the Lord, that those of us who are living and stay until the Lord's return will not in any way precede those who are asleep. Because the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the sound of God's trumpet. And the first to rise will be those who have died in Christ. Then we who are yet alive will be taken up in the clouds with them to meet the Lord in the air. As a result, we will be with the Lord at all times.

The topic here is about "those who are sleeping“ (who have already died). The concern here is for the loved ones who have died and abandoned them, and whose decaying bodies are lying in their graves. Paul is telling the Thessalonians not to be sad for the Christians who have died and gone. It is the heathen who have no hope, since they believe it will all end with the grave. "That ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are," is the subject of this verse. If you're a Christian, you already know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and rose again on the third day. If you disagree, Paul labels you a heathen, a nonbeliever.

Ecclesiastes 9 talks about the flesh body, that when it dies, the soul departs from it, and the flesh is done away with (no longer needed). The topic is "where are the dead?"

Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. - Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 (NKJV)

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul tells us exactly when we would be gathered back to Jesus and when we would see those who are asleep (who have already died), and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh (last) trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink (in the twinkling an eye).

 

[DavidTree]

Greetings, @Absolutely

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (NKJV)

Paul is saying: But I don't want you to be ignorant about those who have died, brethren, lest you mourn as others who have lost hope. Because if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, God will also bring those who sleep in Jesus with Him. For this reason, we say to you by the word of the Lord, that those of us who are living and stay until the Lord's return will not in any way precede those who are asleep. Because the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the sound of God's trumpet. And the first to rise will be those who have died in Christ. Then we who are yet alive will be taken up in the clouds with them to meet the Lord in the air. As a result, we will be with the Lord at all times.

The topic here is about "those who are sleeping." The concern here is for the loved ones who have died and abandoned them, and whose decaying bodies are lying in their graves. Paul is telling the Thessalonians not to be sad for the Christians who have died and gone. It is the heathen who have no hope, since they believe it will all end with the grave. "That ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are," is the subject of this verse. If you're a Christian, you already know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and rose again on the third day. If you disagree, Paul labels you a heathen, a nonbeliever.

Ecclesiastes 9 talks about the flesh body, that when it dies, the soul departs from it, and the flesh is done away with (no longer needed). The topic is "where are the dead?"

Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. - Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 (NKJV)

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul tells us exactly when we would be gathered back to Jesus and when we would see those who are asleep (who have already died), and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh (last) trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink (in the twinkling an eye).

In the Book of Revelation we can see where the Dead in Christ currently are AND we are shown the Future of the Multitudes without number of every tribe tongue and nation standing and worshipping the LORD - HalleluYah and Amen.

We, who have His Holy Spirit, bear witness to this Eternal Truth from Heaven where we have an Anchor for our Soul = Christ Jesus our SAVIOR.

NOTICE, we are not anchored to this earth, nor are we anchored to the Grave and Death - HalleluYah

So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“ODeath, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek

 

[Charlie24]

Paul taught post-trib not pre-trib. He warned against pre-trib when he taught the man of sin had to be revealed before our gathering to Christ. Pre-trib teaches there is a rapture before the revealing of the man of sin, directly against what the Apostle Paul taught.



2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


Do not be confused about the return of Christ or OUR gathering to Him (the rapture), that it can happen at any moment because it will NOT happen at any moment. Paul is speaking about the Church and when Christ comes for her.

The doctrine of the pre-trib rapture states that Christ can secretly return at "any moment" yet Paul is clear to rebuke that doctrine saying not to believe anyone who claims that.


"nor by letter as from us"

Paul mentions even a former letter of his, because of a confusing statement he made concerning Christs return, the very verses that today's pre-tribbers use errantly:



1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.



Paul said it was misunderstood then, and it is still being misunderstood to this very day. Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians was meant to clear up any confusion which apparently was not successful.




2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Don't let anyone, even a fellow Christian deceive you otherwise! Christ's return SHALL NOT COME until the Apostasy happens FIRST. The Apostasy is when Christians stop worshiping Christ and start worshiping the antichrist. Christ will not return until that terrible thing happens, and not until the man of sin is revealed.

I believe this to be an incorrect interpretation! Let me show you where the true argument concerning the differences between the pre-trib and post-trib camps lie.

Kenneth Wuest, a noted 20th century Greek scholar points out what the "falling away" that Paul spoke of truly meant and was interpreted before the KJV came along.

The "falling away" is a departure of the Church before the tribulation begins and then the Second Coming.

https://backtobasicsradio.com/falling-away/

 

[DavidTree]

I believe this to be an incorrect interpretation! Let me show you where the true argument concerning the differences between the pre-trib and post-trib camps lie.

Kenneth Wuest, a noted 20th century Greek scholar points out what the "falling away" that Paul spoke of truly meant and was interpreted before the KJV came along.

The "falling away" is a departure of the Church before the tribulation begins and then the Second Coming.

https://backtobasicsradio.com/falling-away/

We do not accept the writings of different viewpoints but only the Scripture. Scripture cannot lie.

There is No Authoritative voice above Scripture - Scripture ITSELF corrects false/erroneous doctrine.

If it did not come out of the mouth of God = Don't believe it. = SEE Genesis, the Garden Incident Chapter 2-3

Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers is giving you. You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, Deut 4:1-2

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 22:18-19

My Offer still stands = $1,000 REWARD for missing pre-trib rapture scripture(s).

To date, no one has been able to find even one.

 

[Charlie24]

We do not accept the writings of different viewpoints but only the Scripture. Scripture cannot lie.

There is No Authoritative voice above Scripture - Scripture ITSELF corrects false/erroneous doctrine.

If it did not come out of the mouth of God = Don't believe it. = SEE Genesis, the Garden Incident Chapter 2-3

Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers is giving you. You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, Deut 4:1-2

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 22:18-19

My Offer still stands = $1,000 REWARD for missing pre-trib rapture scripture(s).

To date, no one has been able to find even one.

That's a bold statement from someone who can't prove their own theory! It's amazing to me how the post-trib camp accuses us of not proving their case when you are no where near proving your own!

 

[DavidTree]

That's a bold statement from someone who can't prove their own theory! It's amazing to me how the post-trib camp accuses us of not proving their case when you are no where near proving your own!

lol - i do not have a theory to prove.

God has spoken CLEAR as DAY on this - Believe Him for HE never said "Christ is coming pre-trib to rapture His Elect"

HE never said " Before the resurrection i will rapture My Saints"

HE never said "Before the Tribulation I will gather My Elect"

i have to go now - PEACE and will speak with you later

 

[lamad]

You said: "This passage is pointed to Gentile believers."

This is adding to God's words - BAD - resist the temptation of the evil one to add to God's words.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians ch4

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. Romans 10:12


But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his trickery, your minds will be led astray from sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, this you tolerate very well! 2 Cor 11:3

You asked: "WHEN will Jesus come for His church?"

God's Answer: And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

WHEN??? = His Second Coming = that's when = there will only be ONE Second Coming of Christ justs as HE said = Matt ch24

You said: "This passage is pointed to Gentile believers."

This is adding to God's words - BAD - resist the temptation of the evil one to add to God's words.

You don't seem to know the difference between UNDERSTANDING a verse and adding to a verse. I did not add.

Where you miss it: you take a verse pointed to the Jews and attempt to apply it to the church - so end up with nonsense.

You are TOO funny! OF COURSE a "second" coming will be the second time He comes. That is the very definition of "second." His second coming will be His coming TO THE AIR to get His bride and take His bride back to the homes He has prepared. But then, over 7 years later, He will come YET AGAIN, which will be His THIRD coming (but only the second time He touches down) and it will be His coming to Armageddon.

Paul shows us His second coming: 1 Thes 4.
John shows us His third coming: Rev. 19.

 

[DavidTree]

You said: "This passage is pointed to Gentile believers."

This is adding to God's words - BAD - resist the temptation of the evil one to add to God's words.

You don't seem to know the difference between UNDERSTANDING a verse and adding to a verse. I did not add.

Where you miss it: you take a verse pointed to the Jews and attempt to apply it to the church - so end up with nonsense.

You are TOO funny! OF COURSE a "second" coming will be the second time He comes. That is the very definition of "second." His second coming will be His coming TO THE AIR to get His bride and take His bride back to the homes He has prepared. But then, over 7 years later, He will come YET AGAIN, which will be His THIRD coming (but only the second time He touches down) and it will be His coming to Armageddon.

Paul shows us His second coming: 1 Thes 4.
John shows us His third coming: Rev. 19.

lol x100

i have to go now - will respond to this later - PEACE and BLESSING in Christ be upon you Today - Amen

 

[lamad]

Yes.

The same signs:

Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25-26
Revelation 6:12-13
Acts 2:20
Isaiah 13:10

And, you should find that these signs match some of the Trumpet Events.

Now I know you really don't study these verses, but just read over them and declare to all that you know.

Where you miss it: the signs at the 6th seal are the signs for the coming Day of the Lord. The sun turns black. How in the world would anyone KNOW the sun appears black UNLESS THEY SEE IT? How in the world would anyone know the moon appears red, UNLESS THEY SEE IT? Without a doubt, these signs at the 6th seal are TOTAL ECLIPSES of the sun and moon and are SEEN signs.

Did you never look up the Greek word behind "darkened" in Matthew 24? Strong's tells us, for planets it means being void of light. It is speaking of TOTAL DARKNESS - not even the stars will be seen. This is the sign for HIS COMING to armageddon. Neither the sun nor the moon can be seen because it is total darkness, void of light. NO ONE can see the moon unless sunlight is reflected from it. And if the sunlight is put out, or if heaven clouds block the sun, they will also block the moon and the stars.

If we believe John (it seems you don't) he shows us that there will be MANY events between the 6th seal and His coming to Armageddon - about 7 years of events. Therefore, you are mistaken.

 

[Charlie24]

lol - i do not have a theory to prove.

God has spoken CLEAR as DAY on this - Believe Him for HE never said "Christ is coming pre-trib to rapture His Elect"

HE never said " Before the resurrection i will rapture My Saints"

HE never said "Before the Tribulation I will gather My Elect"

i have to go now - PEACE and will speak with you later

We have more scripture for a pre-trib than you have for your theory! Why don't you explain for us Rev. 3:10? Tell us why Christ gave this to John to give to the Church.

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

 

[DavidTree]

We have more scripture for a pre-trib than you have for your theory! Why don't you explain for us Rev. 3:10? Tell us why Christ gave this to John to give to the Church.

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

lolx100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

No one has ever posted a single 'pre-trib' verse and cannot because they do not exist.

That is why you-all have to talk talk talk about it..................

 

[Charlie24]

lolx100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

No one has ever posted a single 'pre-trib' verse and cannot because they do not exist.

That is why you-all have to talk talk talk about it..................

That's because "seeing they cannot see, hearing they will not hear."

 

[DavidTree]

That's because "seeing they cannot see, hearing they will not hear."

i SEE Brother - i also see that you and all the others before you never could find a single pre-trib verse.

The only person who spoke pre-trib from Scripture is satan and all who believe his lies.

"seeing they see not, hearing they hear not"

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: (you refuse His words = blind by choice)
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. - Proverbs 30:5-6