Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[randyk]

No, he didn't you just do not understand the bible Randyk, THIS GENERATION is referring to the generation that sees ALL THE SIGNS, thus the LAST SIGN being the Sun and Moon going dark means the Jews who see the 70th-week SIGN will be THAT GENERATION who sees Jesus' return. Of course !! We agreed on very little on the other board, so I doubt you will start seeing these truths now, but hope springs eternal.

That's the usual argument, to try to prove that this generation is an end-time generation. However, it is illogical, because Jesus said all these signs would take place in "this generation," referring to his own generation.
1) Jesus was speaking to his own Disciples in his own generation.
2) Jesus had just finished berating his own generation of Jews, who rejected him as Messiah, and who used the Law to disguise their internal wickedness.
3) Jesus said the temple would literally fall, stone by stone. That happened in that generation.

When you recognize that Jesus was clearly referring to his own time, and to the soon-coming judgment for his own wicked generation, then you can understand what Jesus meant by "all these signs." He obviously was not referring to the sign of his 2nd Coming, since he excluded that from any prediction of time and circumstance.

But Jesus had just finished explaining the things that would happen leading up to the fall of the temple. These signs, including rumblings of war, were called "birth pains." And they all happened in Jesus' generation, just before the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans.

It was "all these things" that would take place in "this generation." Jesus was predicting the time of Israel's fall, and not the time of his 2nd Coming.

 

[randyk]

If you think we are already in the great tribulation you need to go read and study the book of Revelation. There are more than just the 7 trumpet judgements for starters and theres going to be no other time like it every in the history of the world. The bible makes this clear.

I've been studying the book of Revelation for about 50 years. So I'm very familiar. If you haven't studied well enough, you will see things only through the lens of modern eschatology, or popular eschatology. Much of it is futurist, as I am. But it tends to think *everything* in the Bible, regarding prophecy, is still future. That is obviously false, since many prophecies have already been fulfilled.

One of those "fulfilled" prophecies is the prophecy of the Great Tribulation. It is not the Reign of Antichrist, as is popularly supposed. A simple reading of Luke 21 will tell you that I'm right, that the Great Tribulation is the Jewish Diaspora. Get back to me when you seriously consider what Jesus described was the Great Tribulation. He called it the Punishment of the Jewish People, which will last until the 2nd Coming and the end of the age. It only began in 70 AD, when the temple fell, and is the greatest Jewish punishment in history, because it is the longest Jewish punishment in history.

Don't believe it because I say it. Don't disbelieve it because it's unpopular to believe it. Believe it because Jesus said it.

 

[CS1]

No one here has preached that the church is subject to God's Wrath.

yes, some have. some here have even suggested we must die for the gospel. You may have not said that but some have suggested it nonetheless. Many have not dealt with those who are already dead in Christ or fallen asleep as Paul said in 1Thess 4:13-18. They rise first and if those who are already died in the Lord must be raised first then we which our lives are caught up to meet the Lord only to come back? the gospel of John and the first three chapters of Rev with 1cor 15 and 1thess 4 as well as Mathew 24-25 chapters tell us of this very thing . It is not secret we have all been told HE is coming soon.

 

[lawrence101]

I've been studying the book of Revelation for about 50 years. So I'm very familiar. If you haven't studied well enough, you will see things only through the lens of modern eschatology, or popular eschatology. Much of it is futurist, as I am. But it tends to think *everything* in the Bible, regarding prophecy, is still future. That is obviously false, since many prophecies have already been fulfilled.

One of those "fulfilled" prophecies is the prophecy of the Great Tribulation. It is not the Reign of Antichrist, as is popularly supposed. A simple reading of Luke 21 will tell you that I'm right, that the Great Tribulation is the Jewish Diaspora. Get back to me when you seriously consider what Jesus described was the Great Tribulation. He called it the Punishment of the Jewish People, which will last until the 2nd Coming and the end of the age. It only began in 70 AD, when the temple fell, and is the greatest Jewish punishment in history, because it is the longest Jewish punishment in history.

Don't believe it because I say it. Don't disbelieve it because it's unpopular to believe it. Believe it because Jesus said it.

No you have not been studying the book of Revelation instead you have been" reading" things into it that's not even there. What you posted here is nothing but unsupported pointless propaganda. The nation of Israel is here to stay but their time of trial is yet to come.

 

[lawrence101]

Actually it would be that for anyone who thinks Jesus said he would come and take anyone anywhere. He doesn't say that but people like yourself think he did. I showed you that you were wrong before and I will again:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you." that is regarding those who die while Christ is in heaven. Jesus will eventually leave heaven: "I will come again". That is the second coming and here is the important thing: "I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


So where is Christ after "I will come again and receive you unto myself"? Earth.


"I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


This is what Jesus said. This is what you think he said:


"I will come again and receive you unto myself AND TAKE YOU BACK TO HEAVEN; that where I am, there ye may be also."


He never said when he came back, that he was taking anyone to heaven. He comes again to Earth and where he is on Earth is where the church will be.

Also in the same chapter:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Christ isn't returning to take anyone up to heaven to live with him and the Father but the opposite! The Father and Christ will end up coming here to make their abode here on Earth with us! That's the opposite of the false pre-trib teaching!


If you can't read the verses correctly, how can you possibly understand?? You can't.

I agree it doesn't say He takes us back to Heaven but it also doesn't say he takes us back down to the Earth either , so it doesnt support post-trib .
But just think about this for a second , He prepares a place for us in Heaven then returns to bring us back to Earth ? Just doesnt make any sense.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree it doesn't say He takes us back to Heaven but it also doesn't say he takes us back down to the Earth either , so it doesnt support post-trib .
But just think about this for a second , He prepares a place for us in Heaven then returns to bring us back to Earth ? Just doesnt make any sense.

Sure it does. The place for people who die is in heaven. That's before the second coming but after Christ does return, there is no taking people to heaven nor going there because Christians will become immortal so there is no further need to go to a place in heaven. Jesus remains here for eternity and even the Father will come here. That's found in Revelation 21 and other places.

 

[lawrence101]

What are you talking about? *Pre-Tribbers* are the ones who concocted the Secret Rapture theory!!

You know exactly what im "talking" about. It's you post-tribbers who coined the term "secret rapture" we just agreed to it." No one knows the day or the hour " remember ? Only the Father knows, cant put it much clearer.

 

[ewq1938]

You know exactly what im "talking" about. It's you post-tribbers who coined the term "secret rapture"

Let's see you prove that claim. I have seen MANY pre-tribbers use the term "secret" for the rapture without any post-trib saying it first.

 

[ewq1938]

Here is a pre-tribber speaking of the secret rapture:

https://www.raptureforums.com/rapture/the-secret-rapture/

"The Secret Rapture

July 24, 2016Rapture

The Secret Rapture
By Chris Schang

The secret rapture event is a theological event that the Bible foretells will happen during the end times when millions and millions of people across the world will suddenly “vanish” or “disappear” without any kind of advance signs or warnings. The rapture of the church is when the Lord Jesus Christ suddenly appears in the air, with the sound of the archangel’s trumpet, and believers both dead and alive will meet the Lord in the air and return with him to Heaven.

People who are left behind after the secret rapture, will find themselves in shock and disbelief at the mysterious event. Some unbelievers will try to explain away the “vanishings” as some sort of “evolutionary process” where people who were “not ready” were removed from Earth so that mankind can move forward in the evolutionary process. This is likely to be the excuse of people who have placed their faith in the science book rather than God’s Word which is found in the Holy Bible. Still others will find some other excuse so they can continue in their unbelief and wicked ways.

Immediately after the rapture it is likely that the people left behind will be completely stunned that the rapture of the church has finally happened. Many will be in state of unbelief and it is also likely many will be in denial that the secret event called the rapture has finally happened as foretold by the Holy scriptures. The rapture is described as happening in the “twinkling of an eye” which modern science has estimated to be a small fraction of a second. As a result, people will be walking on Earth one second and then find themselves walking in Heaven the next. The rapture will only be for people who placed their trust and faith in their salvation on the completed work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the Cross. People who have not made a decision for Jesus Christ will suddenly find themselves left behind to face the Tribulation period and the wrath of God to come. The Tribulation period will be a time unlike any ever seen on Earth. It will be a time when God pours out his wrath on unbelievers, both Jew and Gentile. The Bible also calls this time of wrath as the “time of Jacob’s trouble” in reference to the Tribulation period or the Day of the Lord.

Typical portrayals of the rapture event in books and movies usually have what appears to be a normal everyday scene of people going about their daily lives when suddenly, out of the blue, people vanish into thin air. People suddenly disappearing without any warning is often cited as the reasons for car wrecks, airplanes falling out of the sky, buses rolling into buildings, and many other scenarios where people who were suddenly raptured caused chaos back on Earth. Key personnel will be missing, the economy will take a severe blow, food distribution, and transportation services will take a sudden blow. Chaos will suddenly be the order of the day after the rapture of the church. While it is hard to tell exactly how the rapture event will play out in the real world, we can be assured that the rapture will indeed happen as Bible prophecy continues to head to a climax in the in the middle east and in the world.

And finally, some people will realize what has happened and will come to faith in the Lord as a result. These are the people who sat on the fence about making a decision for Jesus Christ until it was too late. But the good news is that salvation can be acquired after the rapture, but it is likely that one will end up suffering a martyrs death as a result. These are the Tribulation saints that are spoken about in Revelation 7. These will be the people who needed just one more undeniable piece of evidence that God was real and waited too long as a result. The Bible says that today is the day of salvation. Don’t put it off, tomorrow could be too late. Get saved today!!"

 

[ewq1938]

Same author:

https://www.raptureforums.com/rapture/secret-rapture/

"Secret Rapture?

August 6, 2016Rapture

Secret Rapture?
By Chris Schang

The secret rapture is a blessing that has provided to his church. Out of all the dispensations the age of grace through faith is the only one that provides for the blessed hope of the secret rapture. The rapture is said to be secret because the timing of the event is not know. The rapture is also an event that is imminent meaning that it could literally happen at anytime. This assurance from the Lord of the rapture is to help keep Christians focused on the Lord and his promises to the church.

The secret rapture is also a guarantee of the Holy Spirit’s deposit in believers. When a person gets saved the Holy Spirit takes up residence inside a believer to be the comforter that God has promised. God also said that the Holy Spirit would also help teach us things so that we can discern between godly things and the things of the world. As a believer I’m sure many of you are on a regular basis feeling the conviction and warnings from the spirit of God as the Holy Spirit serves to show us things that the natural and unsaved man can not see. This gift of the Holy Spirit is truly a blessing to us all. God doesn’t want us left in the dark as we are new creations thanks to faith in Jesus’ death on the Cross.

The Holy Spirit can also help us see things in the scriptures that shows us that God never pours out his wrath on his believers. So we ca have confidence that when the secret rapture takes place and millions upon millions of people simply vanish off the face of the earth that we can know that God is always faithful and never pours out his wrath on believers.

The secret rapture is supported by numerous scriptures in the Bible. The Bible says that we are not destined to wrath but to salvation in Jesus Christ. This is such a wonderful expectation that everyone should be looking for this imminent event all the time. The Bible tells us that were are to remain sober and also watching for the rapture. Jesus described his removal of Christians in the rapture as being similar to a thief who comes in the night and that the master of the house is shocked when he sees his possessions gone. So this describes perfectly the world’s response when Christians suddenly vanish out of then air and are taken to Heave by the Lord and the marriage supper of the lamb takes place. Believers will also take part in the Bema seat of Christ when Jesus passes out crowns and rewards for our faithful service since being born again.

I’d like to encourage everyone to continue to watch eagerly for the rapture of the church as the signs of the end times point to the soon return of the Lord Jesus of his church. Let us continue to be like watchmen on the wall who are always looking for blessed hope of the rapture. Let us also pray for the peace of Jerusalem and that God’s will is done on earth as it is done in Heaven.

God bless."

 

[lawrence101]

Sure it does. The place for people who die is in heaven. That's before the second coming but after Christ does return, there is no taking people to heaven nor going there because Christians will become immortal so there is no further need to go to a place in heaven. Jesus remains here for eternity and even the Father will come here. That's found in Revelation 21 and other places.

No that verse does not support post-trib in any way shape or form, your just "reading" that into it supported by nothing but pointless propaganda.
Heaven is not for "people who die" as you say , its for those who die in Christ , its for the redeemed as scripture says.

 

[lawrence101]

Same author:

https://www.raptureforums.com/rapture/secret-rapture/

"Secret Rapture?

August 6, 2016Rapture

Secret Rapture?
By Chris Schang

The secret rapture is a blessing that has provided to his church. Out of all the dispensations the age of grace through faith is the only one that provides for the blessed hope of the secret rapture. The rapture is said to be secret because the timing of the event is not know. The rapture is also an event that is imminent meaning that it could literally happen at anytime. This assurance from the Lord of the rapture is to help keep Christians focused on the Lord and his promises to the church.

The secret rapture is also a guarantee of the Holy Spirit’s deposit in believers. When a person gets saved the Holy Spirit takes up residence inside a believer to be the comforter that God has promised. God also said that the Holy Spirit would also help teach us things so that we can discern between godly things and the things of the world. As a believer I’m sure many of you are on a regular basis feeling the conviction and warnings from the spirit of God as the Holy Spirit serves to show us things that the natural and unsaved man can not see. This gift of the Holy Spirit is truly a blessing to us all. God doesn’t want us left in the dark as we are new creations thanks to faith in Jesus’ death on the Cross.

The Holy Spirit can also help us see things in the scriptures that shows us that God never pours out his wrath on his believers. So we ca have confidence that when the secret rapture takes place and millions upon millions of people simply vanish off the face of the earth that we can know that God is always faithful and never pours out his wrath on believers.

The secret rapture is supported by numerous scriptures in the Bible. The Bible says that we are not destined to wrath but to salvation in Jesus Christ. This is such a wonderful expectation that everyone should be looking for this imminent event all the time. The Bible tells us that were are to remain sober and also watching for the rapture. Jesus described his removal of Christians in the rapture as being similar to a thief who comes in the night and that the master of the house is shocked when he sees his possessions gone. So this describes perfectly the world’s response when Christians suddenly vanish out of then air and are taken to Heave by the Lord and the marriage supper of the lamb takes place. Believers will also take part in the Bema seat of Christ when Jesus passes out crowns and rewards for our faithful service since being born again.

I’d like to encourage everyone to continue to watch eagerly for the rapture of the church as the signs of the end times point to the soon return of the Lord Jesus of his church. Let us continue to be like watchmen on the wall who are always looking for blessed hope of the rapture. Let us also pray for the peace of Jerusalem and that God’s will is done on earth as it is done in Heaven.

God bless."

LOL! That was from way way back in 2016, oh you got us all convinced . What you copied and pasted here proves absolutley nothing about who coined the term "secret rapture". All it proves is that pre-tribbers believe there will be a secret rapture as scripture says. No one knows the day or the hour but the Father only. Nice try though but you failed yet again.

 

[ewq1938]

LOL! That was from way way back in 2016, oh you got us all convinced . What you copied and pasted here proves absolutley nothing about who coined the term "secret rapture". All it proves is that pre-tribbers believe there will be a secret rapture as scripture says.

Oops! You screwed up. You have been claiming that post-trib made up this secret rapture language yet here you are admitting, "there will be a secret rapture as scripture says." Pretty dishonest of you to accuse post-trib of inventing that.

No, scripture does NOT say there is a secret rapture.

 

[lawrence101]

Let's see you prove that claim. I have seen MANY pre-tribbers use the term "secret" for the rapture without any post-trib saying it first.

And i've seen MANY post-tribbers use the term "secret" rapture, whats your point ?

 

[ewq1938]

The lie:

I agree somewhat, but its the timing the debate is over. Yes it was the post-tribbers that came up with the "secret" rapture as part of their false belief system.

The truth:

LOL! That was from way way back in 2016, oh you got us all convinced . What you copied and pasted here proves absolutley nothing about who coined the term "secret rapture". All it proves is that pre-tribbers believe there will be a secret rapture as scripture says.

 

[lawrence101]

Oops! You screwed up. You have been claiming that post-trib made up this secret rapture language yet here you are admitting, "there will be a secret rapture as scripture says." Pretty dishonest of you to accuse post-trib of inventing that.

No, scripture does NOT say there is a secret rapture.

No i did not claim that post-tribbers made up this secret rapture language, now your lying , i said post-tribbers coined the term "secret rapture" and pinned it on pre-tribbers, we simply agreed to the term because its true. You appear to have a weak reading comprehension. Look up the definition of the word "SECRET ", then read this " no one knows the day or the hour but the Father only "

 

[lawrence101]

The lie:



The truth:

All lies

 

[justbyfaith]

Left Behind Secret Rapture is a lie made up by Satan.

Remember, Left Behind Secret Rapture and rapture are two different things.

The bottom link talks about the rapture and what is rapture.

http://testallthings.com/2010/05/31/when-is-the-rapture/


The Word of God says that Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, John 17:15

We don't know the exact day, time and hour of the Real Jesus Christ 2nd Coming, but we do know the signs.

Before the Real Jesus Christ comes back: Great earthquake that shakes Earth and Heaven, sun shall be turned into darkness, moon into blood, stars shall withdraw their shining, heaven rolled like a scroll, every mountain and island moved out of their places, great hail out of heaven pelting on some of Satan's children on earth.

Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 38:19-23, Joel 2:10-11, Joel 2:30-32, Haggai 2:6, 21, Matthew 24:29-34, Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:24-29, Mark 13:31, Acts 2:19-20, Luke 21:25-33 and Hebrews 12:26-28, Revelation 6:12-17, Compare Daniel 7:13-14, 27, Ezekiel 13:13, Revelation 11:15-19, Revelation 16:17-21

http://repent5610.blogspot.com/2012/12/there-is-no-secret-rapture.html

If you are interested in freedom from sin and how do we receive the Holy Spirit? read below.
After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, novels, music, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons and Christian music words that gives messages. I found out that in them there is lying, stealing, adultery (Matthew 5:28 looking at someone with lust is adultery), fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, murder, jealousy, pride=self-pity, hypocrisy, using God’s name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list.

1 John 2:15 King James Version (KJV)


15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 New King James Version

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


Now I will be preaching about how to receive the Holy Spirit and be 100% going to Heaven.

First, it’s only by the grace of God that he gives you faith in Jesus Christ in order to give up your sins. It’s only by the grace of God that he leads you to pray to him to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or any sinful desires. When you pray to God to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or sinful desires (Romans 6:6-7 and Galatians 5:24), Satan will intervene and extremely tempt you in watching the TV. But if it’s God’s will and if you are one of God’s elects, you will overcome it and God will destroy all your evil desires of watching TV. After God has destroyed all your evil desires of watching TV and if you are one of God’s elects, you receive the joy of the Holy Spirit for about 40 minutes. After the joy wears off, all existence of boredom no longer exists and you no longer burn out (psychology) anymore. That is when you have received the Holy Spirit.

Then it’s by the grace of God that he forgives you of your sins, as you confess and repent of your sins throughout your life which is called sanctification. But you can watch Christian stuff that don’t have sins (Like sermons) because that helps you grow more mature as a Christian spiritually and for more information about this sermon, go to spreadthegospel59.wordpress.com then go to
The short version of “To be free from sin (sin deceives and hurts everyone) and how do we receive the Holy Spirit?”

Why does God hate sin? | GotQuestions.org
What does it mean that “you were bought with a price” (1 Corinthians 6:20; 7:23)? | GotQuestions.org
Sin Will Never Make You Happy
(What does the Bible say about hypocrisy? | GotQuestions.org)
Gives thanks to God, that you are free from sin (sin deceives=never satisfied no matter how many times you do it,
gives pain, makes you guilty, go from bad to worse)
if you are one of God’s elect, to fight off self-pity is to give thanks to God for everything. What does the Bible say about self-pity? | GotQuestions.org
Is eternal security a “license” to sin? | GotQuestions.org

The reason why am hated for no reason since I were physically born and never fit in is because am one of God’s elects. (John 15:18-19)


Just so you know Jesus had to carry all of God’s elects sins and endure the punishment for God’s elects sins which is Hellfire spiritually, which is extreme love and mercy.
Go to the bottom website, for better explanation.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/jesus-eternal-punishment-hours/

There is a pre-tribulation rapture. I do not believe that it will be a secret one...for in it will be the trumpet of God and the voice of the archangel (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

 

[FreeGrace2]

I agree it doesn't say He takes us back to Heaven but it also doesn't say he takes us back down to the Earth either , so it doesnt support post-trib .
But just think about this for a second , He prepares a place for us in Heaven then returns to bring us back to Earth ? Just doesnt make any sense.

Think for a sec. Where do you think the resurrected saints reside during the Millennium?

In fact, Rev 20 tells you.

 

[Runningman]

LOL! That was from way way back in 2016, oh you got us all convinced . What you copied and pasted here proves absolutley nothing about who coined the term "secret rapture". All it proves is that pre-tribbers believe there will be a secret rapture as scripture says. No one knows the day or the hour but the Father only. Nice try though but you failed yet again.

Where the pre-tribbers get the idea that there is a Secret Coming of Christ (or Secret Rapture) is from the verses that say "the Lord comes as a thief in the night" and "that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." That's referring to the return of Christ and the subsequent Day of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5 clearly teaches that the church will not be surprised by the Day of the Lord. For those who are not familiar with what the Day of the Lord is, it just means the time of God's wrath upon sinners. See Isaiah 13:9-13 for a comprehensive explanation of what happens on the Day of the Lord and the signs that will occur. Bonus: The signs that occur in Isaiah 13:9-13 also occur in Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 6:12-14.

Here's what 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 says:

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1 Thess. 5 clearly teaches that those who know "the times and the seasons" will not be overtaken by the Day of Lord because they're the church who are not appointed to wrath.

Now before you say that the Day of the Lord is the great tribulation or occurs after a pre-trib rapture, consider 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3:

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The Day of Christ is the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord comes after Christ returns, we are gathered to Him (raptured), after the great apostasy and the great tribulation.

So pre-tribbers must necessitate a Secret Coming of Christ or a Secret Rapture because they don't know that the Day of the Lord occurs after Christ's return and after the church is raptured in the post-tribulation timeframe. Pre-tribbers often invent multiple comings of Christ, sometimes 3, 4, or even 5 comings of Christ to tie off lose ends in the theology.

I know this is a long, wordy, post, but please take some time to really study all of the verses I showed you.