Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:

"""I'm not interested in your obsession with Rev 14. I don't believe you even understand what it says.""""

You are not interested in what it says.

Yes i know that.

I'm certainly not interested in your unbiblical claims. You can't prove anything you've posted. And you haven't shown any verse that says what you claim.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

Bump1

 

[HatedForNoReason]

Am not worried about famine in the end of times because God chose me as one of his elect and will keep me fed.

-God kept Nebuchadnezzar alive living like a wild beast eating grass as a ox for 7 years.
-Elijah fed food by the ravens commanded by God.
-Also food got multiplied from a bunch of verses in the bible.

2 Corinthians 5:7
King James Version

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Freedom from sin=True gospel=After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, novels, music, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons and Christian music words that gives messages. I found out that in them there is lying, stealing, adultery (Matthew 5:28 looking at someone with lust is adultery), fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, murder, jealousy, pride=self-pity, hypocrisy, using God’s name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list.

link below will find out if you are one of the elect of God or one of the nonelect.

https://christianchat.com/testimoni...s-except-christian-stuff.199651/#post-4583333

 

[Rondonmon]

Am not worried about famine in the end of times because God chose me as one of his elect and will keep me fed.

-God kept Nebuchadnezzar alive living like a wild beast eating grass as a ox for 7 years.
-Elijah fed food by the ravens commanded by God.
-Also food got multiplied from a bunch of verses in the bible.

2 Corinthians 5:7
King James Version

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Freedom from sin=True gospel=After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, novels, music, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons and Christian music words that gives messages. I found out that in them there is lying, stealing, adultery (Matthew 5:28 looking at someone with lust is adultery), fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, murder, jealousy, pride=self-pity, hypocrisy, using God’s name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list.

link below will find out if you are one of the elect of God or one of the nonelect.

https://christianchat.com/testimoni...s-except-christian-stuff.199651/#post-4583333

Real Christians will not be here for the 70th-week tribulation anyway. Famine in Matt. 24 covered the whole Church Age as in it was a part of THE SORROWS or Birth Pangs that lead unto the birth of the 70th week.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Real Christians will not be here for the 70th-week tribulation anyway.

Here are the facts.

1. There are NO verses showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. None. Think about it.
2. Acts 24:15 says there will be A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved. That's 2 total.
3. 1 Cor 15:23 says after the resurrection of Christ, being the "first fruits", "then when He comes, those who belong to Him". Keep in mind that will occur at the SINGLE saved resurrection. iow, ALL the saved are resurrected at the same time.
4. 2 Thess 2:1-3 shows that the Second Advent and "gathering" (rapture) occur at the same time and NOT until AFTER the Tribulation.
5. Rev 20:1-5 specifically calls the resurrection of martyred believers from the Tribulation the FIRST resurrection. In which "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected.

 

[randyk]

Real Christians will not be here for the 70th-week tribulation anyway. Famine in Matt. 24 covered the whole Church Age as in it was a part of THE SORROWS or Birth Pangs that lead unto the birth of the 70th week.

I don't believe this. Jesus said "this generation" would see all of the initial birth pains of the coming destruction of Jerusalem. This destruction, involving the desolation of the temple, stone by stone, took place in that generation, in 70 AD. Nothing could be clearer, and yet futurists always want every prophecy to be about their generation, about the endtimes. Sorry, doesn't work for me.

 

[Runningman]

Here are the facts.

1. There are NO verses showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. None. Think about it.
2. Acts 24:15 says there will be A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved. That's 2 total.
3. 1 Cor 15:23 says after the resurrection of Christ, being the "first fruits", "then when He comes, those who belong to Him". Keep in mind that will occur at the SINGLE saved resurrection. iow, ALL the saved are resurrected at the same time.
4. 2 Thess 2:1-3 shows that the Second Advent and "gathering" (rapture) occur at the same time and NOT until AFTER the Tribulation.
5. Rev 20:1-5 specifically calls the resurrection of martyred believers from the Tribulation the FIRST resurrection. In which "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected.

That's the truth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

1. There are NO verses showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. None. Think about it.

FALSE. You can start with John 14:1-3 and go from there. So if you are completely clueless about this one important doctrine, there would be no point in even addressing all your other fallacies.

 

[lamad]

I don't believe this. Jesus said "this generation" would see all of the initial birth pains of the coming destruction of Jerusalem. This destruction, involving the desolation of the temple, stone by stone, took place in that generation, in 70 AD. Nothing could be clearer, and yet futurists always want every prophecy to be about their generation, about the endtimes. Sorry, doesn't work for me.

OK. Then tell us when in history each of the trumpet judgments happened, and each of the vials with plagues happened. Since they are history, it should be easy.

 

[lamad]

Real Christians will not be here for the 70th-week tribulation anyway. Famine in Matt. 24 covered the whole Church Age as in it was a part of THE SORROWS or Birth Pangs that lead unto the birth of the 70th week.

You are real close: Jesus was not talking about "the end" until he talked of His coming. However, everything before verse 15 was speaking of church age events.

 

[lamad]

Am not worried about famine in the end of times because God chose me as one of his elect and will keep me fed.

-God kept Nebuchadnezzar alive living like a wild beast eating grass as a ox for 7 years.
-Elijah fed food by the ravens commanded by God.
-Also food got multiplied from a bunch of verses in the bible.

2 Corinthians 5:7
King James Version

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Freedom from sin=True gospel=After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, novels, music, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons and Christian music words that gives messages. I found out that in them there is lying, stealing, adultery (Matthew 5:28 looking at someone with lust is adultery), fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, murder, jealousy, pride=self-pity, hypocrisy, using God’s name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list.

link below will find out if you are one of the elect of God or one of the nonelect.

https://christianchat.com/testimoni...s-except-christian-stuff.199651/#post-4583333

I don't need a link, thanks. I know I am "In Christ." I also know I will not be taking part of any of the 70th week. That week is for Daniel's people, not the church. I am going to be found worthy to escape all these things, as will all who are in Christ and are looking for His coming.

Since God's escape plan is very real, and part of scripture, I wonder why you wish to remain behind and suffer God's wrath?

 

[lamad]

Left Behind Secret Rapture is a lie made up by Satan.

Remember, Left Behind Secret Rapture and rapture are two different things.

The bottom link talks about the rapture and what is rapture.

http://testallthings.com/2010/05/31/when-is-the-rapture/


The Word of God says that Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, John 17:15

We don't know the exact day, time and hour of the Real Jesus Christ 2nd Coming, but we do know the signs.

Before the Real Jesus Christ comes back: Great earthquake that shakes Earth and Heaven, sun shall be turned into darkness, moon into blood, stars shall withdraw their shining, heaven rolled like a scroll, every mountain and island moved out of their places, great hail out of heaven pelting on some of Satan's children on earth.

Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 38:19-23, Joel 2:10-11, Joel 2:30-32, Haggai 2:6, 21, Matthew 24:29-34, Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:24-29, Mark 13:31, Acts 2:19-20, Luke 21:25-33 and Hebrews 12:26-28, Revelation 6:12-17, Compare Daniel 7:13-14, 27, Ezekiel 13:13, Revelation 11:15-19, Revelation 16:17-21

http://repent5610.blogspot.com/2012/12/there-is-no-secret-rapture.html

If you are interested in freedom from sin and how do we receive the Holy Spirit? read below.
After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, novels, music, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons and Christian music words that gives messages. I found out that in them there is lying, stealing, adultery (Matthew 5:28 looking at someone with lust is adultery), fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, murder, jealousy, pride=self-pity, hypocrisy, using God’s name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list.

1 John 2:15 King James Version (KJV)


15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 New King James Version

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


Now I will be preaching about how to receive the Holy Spirit and be 100% going to Heaven.

First, it’s only by the grace of God that he gives you faith in Jesus Christ in order to give up your sins. It’s only by the grace of God that he leads you to pray to him to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or any sinful desires. When you pray to God to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or sinful desires (Romans 6:6-7 and Galatians 5:24), Satan will intervene and extremely tempt you in watching the TV. But if it’s God’s will and if you are one of God’s elects, you will overcome it and God will destroy all your evil desires of watching TV. After God has destroyed all your evil desires of watching TV and if you are one of God’s elects, you receive the joy of the Holy Spirit for about 40 minutes. After the joy wears off, all existence of boredom no longer exists and you no longer burn out (psychology) anymore. That is when you have received the Holy Spirit.

Then it’s by the grace of God that he forgives you of your sins, as you confess and repent of your sins throughout your life which is called sanctification. But you can watch Christian stuff that don’t have sins (Like sermons) because that helps you grow more mature as a Christian spiritually and for more information about this sermon, go to spreadthegospel59.wordpress.com then go to
The short version of “To be free from sin (sin deceives and hurts everyone) and how do we receive the Holy Spirit?”

Why does God hate sin? | GotQuestions.org
What does it mean that “you were bought with a price” (1 Corinthians 6:20; 7:23)? | GotQuestions.org
Sin Will Never Make You Happy
(What does the Bible say about hypocrisy? | GotQuestions.org)
Gives thanks to God, that you are free from sin (sin deceives=never satisfied no matter how many times you do it,
gives pain, makes you guilty, go from bad to worse)
if you are one of God’s elect, to fight off self-pity is to give thanks to God for everything. What does the Bible say about self-pity? | GotQuestions.org
Is eternal security a “license” to sin? | GotQuestions.org

The reason why am hated for no reason since I were physically born and never fit in is because am one of God’s elects. (John 15:18-19)


Just so you know Jesus had to carry all of God’s elects sins and endure the punishment for God’s elects sins which is Hellfire spiritually, which is extreme love and mercy.
Go to the bottom website, for better explanation.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/jesus-eternal-punishment-hours/

I rather think a "secret" rapture is made up by posttribbers.
Let's reherse:
A SHOUT
A TRUMPET
Graves suddenly flying open: this is bound to make noise and start a very noisy earthquake.

How then could this be "secret?" The WORLD will know something happened.

The Word of God says that Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation.
Yes, but it also says He will come just before wrath and the Day of His wrath (the Day of the Lord.)

Just these two verses PROVE they cannot be speaking of the same event: "After the trib' must be at least 7 years after God's wrath begins.

Just so you know, John saw the great crowd too large to number in chapter 7, NOT IN CHAPTER 19 of Revelation.

 

[Runningman]

I also know I will not be taking part of any of the 70th week. That week is for Daniel's people, not the church. I am going to be found worthy to escape all these things, as will all who are in Christ and are looking for His coming.

Since God's escape plan is very real, and part of scripture, I wonder why you wish to remain behind and suffer God's wrath?

All of what you just said is false.

The great tribulation is not God's wrath, it's the devil's wrath. As shown by Revelation 12:12, the great tribulation doesn't occur until immediately after the devil comes to earth with great wrath:

Rev. 12:12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The Day of the Lord (or the Day of Christ , also known as the day of God's wrath) doesn't occur until after Jesus returns and the church is gathered. It's definitely post-tribulation:

2 Thess. 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
1. There are NO verses showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. None. Think about it.

FALSE. You can start with John 14:1-3 and go from there.

OK.

John 14-
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

I added the next verse (v.4) to prove the point of what Jesus said.

Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead. He was assuring His disciples that when they die, they would be with Him, as He was going to prepare a place for them.

As to v.3, this isn't materially different than 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

So, my statement is not refuted. There is nothing in John 14 about the resurrection or rapture.

So if you are completely clueless about this one important doctrine, there would be no point in even addressing all your other fallacies.

Rather, you are unable to address them. If they were fallacies, they SHOULD BE EASY to refute.

Truth is ALWAYS able to refute fallacies.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I rather think a "secret" rapture is made up by posttribbers.

No, we don't need to make up anything about the pretrib theory.

Let's reherse:
A SHOUT
A TRUMPET
Graves suddenly flying open: this is bound to make noise and start a very noisy earthquake.

How then could this be "secret?" The WORLD will know something happened.

What you are describing here is the Second Advent. You bet it will be seen by the whole world.

The Word of God says that Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation.
Yes, but it also says He will come just before wrath and the Day of His wrath (the Day of the Lord.)

Could you please quote the verse that says this?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead. He was assuring His disciples that when they die, they would be with Him, as He was going to prepare a place for them.

This is so ludicrous it is not even worth responding to. So according to your fantasy Jesus comes back again, and again, and again, each time a Christian dies, to take them to Heaven where He is!

No, the proper interpretation is that this is the first mention of the Rapture by Christ Himself. "I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF" corresponds to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 which says that "the Lord HIMSELF shall descend from Heaven".

 

[randyk]

OK. Then tell us when in history each of the trumpet judgments happened, and each of the vials with plagues happened. Since they are history, it should be easy.

Separate subject. I never said all of prophecy was historically fulfilled. Preterists tend in that direction. I do not.

Jesus did say that he was giving prophecy, in the Revelation, of things to happen *after* the things that presently were. So after detailing the things that were happening at that time with the 7 churches of Asia Jesus went on to show John things that would happen later.

He did not give a precise time--only said these things would follow. The imagery is of the 2nd Coming, but was only intended to show that these things were leading to the 2nd Coming. Each seal opening and each trumpet described things that were happening in history, leading to the 2nd Coming.

The 7 trumpets show God's judgments upon the earth. They have been happening all throughout history, but we know they will culminate towards the end, because we are told the last days will consist of a 3.5 year reign of Antichrist, followed by a great mobilization to Armageddon. Then judgment will be poured out in final measure, leading to the greatest judgment of all--sentencing for eternity.

 

[lawrence101]

I rather think a "secret" rapture is made up by posttribbers.
Let's reherse:
A SHOUT
A TRUMPET
Graves suddenly flying open: this is bound to make noise and start a very noisy earthquake.

How then could this be "secret?" The WORLD will know something happened.

The Word of God says that Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation.
Yes, but it also says He will come just before wrath and the Day of His wrath (the Day of the Lord.)

Just these two verses PROVE they cannot be speaking of the same event: "After the trib' must be at least 7 years after God's wrath begins.

Just so you know, John saw the great crowd too large to number in chapter 7, NOT IN CHAPTER 19 of Revelation.

I agree somewhat, but its the timing the debate is over. Yes it was the post-tribbers that came up with the "secret" rapture as part of their false belief system.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead. He was assuring His disciples that when they die, they would be with Him, as He was going to prepare a place for them.

This is so ludicrous it is not even worth responding to.

Thank you for your opinion.

So according to your fantasy Jesus comes back again, and again, and again, each time a Christian dies, to take them to Heaven where He is!

No, actually, that seems to be what the pretribbers must think when they cite Jn 14:1-3 as some kind of proof of pretrib rapture.

That's the fantasy.

No, the proper interpretation is that this is the first mention of the Rapture by Christ Himself. "I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF" corresponds to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 which says that "the Lord HIMSELF shall descend from Heaven".

OK, let's go with your theory. Where does the text say that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured believers to heaven?

Which verse, specifically?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I agree somewhat, but its the timing the debate is over. Yes it was the post-tribbers that came up with the "secret" rapture as part of their false belief system.

Why do post-tribbers need a "secret rapture"? Please explain.

I know the pre-tribbers do.