Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[lamad]

Heaven. Of course. Why do you try to force some pretrib journey to get to those homes. All the disciples died within 50 years of when Jesus said that. And they ALL went to those homes.

You're proving nothing.

Yes, it is true, whenever a saint dies, they go to those homes. You have that part right. Here is the difference: I believe what He said, that He would go and build, then would come and receive us (as the bride) unto Himself. Where will He be when He receives His bride? In the air and in the clouds. But where is He during the 7 years? He is in heaven. He does not continue down after collecting His bride: He returns to heaven.

What you miss: Paul tells us his gathering will be before wrath; probably JUST before wrath - as the trigger for wrath. You probably believe this, but due to preconceptions are then forced to move wrath to the end of the trib, when John and the Holy Spirit have the start of wrath BEFORE the trib.

 

[lamad]

My previous post proved that there is only 1 resurrection of the saved. Keep reading the post until it sinks in.


They don't happen severn years apart. Read my post until it all sinks in.

You are too funny. Why would I want error to "sink in?" The truth is, I don't.

I won't go and find your previous post. It will be wrong too.

Where you miss it: you just don't believe Paul. He tells us that the rapture will come just before the Day of the Lord and the start of God's wrath. Just keep in mind what Peter said about Paul's writings. You have to meditate on what Paul wrote. The truth is, Jesus will come pretrib to the clouds, and His coming will be the trigger for the rapture, for He will call up the dead in Christ first, then those of us who are alive. And just so you will know, this will be a part of that "first resurrection." Jesus was the first - as the firstfruits. Always remember, if there is a firstfruit, there will be a secondfruit, a third fruit etc. The word "first" tells us there will be more.

Next, the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. It is going to be church age/Day of the Lord, as back to back events, with no time between: one moment it will be church age, and the next moment, the rapture will have happened and it will be the start of the Day of the Lord. Just so you know, John puts the start of the Day in chapter 6, NOT IN CHAPTER 19.

Keep in mind my axiom for Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit, is immediately suspect and will always be proven wrong.

Where you miss it: you imagine that the "first resurrection" is a one time event that happens at the end of the week. You forget that Jesus' own resurrection was a part of that "first" resurrection. You don't understand, the rapture events will be the second wave of people taking part in that first resurrection. Then around 7 years later the Old Testament saints will be another wave. You see, God chose to make that the ONLY resurrection for the righteous over all time.

 

[Runningman]

"""Jesus describes the great tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 and basically says it will be the most difficult time for people in Earth's history. There's no discussion by Jesus of escaping those difficult times until after the tribulation"""

Like i said...why would you obey Jesus and pray to escape?????

Makes no sense

I can ASSURE YOU...
That postrib doctrine beast took you guys out into a wasteland and died a long time ago.

You can keep whipping it...but it is dead. And left you guys fiercely modifying verses.

Listen to yourself and your relentless comments about nothing particularly relevant or effective to elaborate why you believe the pre-trib is correct. It's just comes off as a bunch of hot air:

"Postribber...." Nope you got it wrong Jesus. We would never pray that...there is no point in it"
"I know you have zero interest in those things.
"Your deal is impossible."
"as wimpy believers that are not brave like you guys."
"You guys DEFINITELY ...NEVER... plan to escape"
"In fact you guys despise that notion...and brag about how you will be running from cave to cave with the devil man chasing you with an overgrown axe"
"If you dont know..i will look it up for you. ( you will NEVER find it in ANY postribber talking points)"
"Too funny"
"Makes no sense"
"I can ASSURE YOU... "

You've proved nothing other than that you know how to talk a lot of smack without ever actually taking time to disprove/prove anything; a lot of smoke, mirrors, distraction, and forum sliding. Your strategy is to flood Bible discussions with a lot of pointless rambling and bury quality comments worthy of proper discussion. Truly shameful.

 

[lamad]

This paragraph is internally contradicted. You first tell me that there is only 1 resurrection of the saved, and then you tell me there are only 2 resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 for all people. Duh. Right. One for the saved, and one for the unsaved.

That is precisely what Paul said in Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

One each. Obviously. And then Paul clarified even further about WHEN the saved resurrection will occur.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, you tell me, from this verse, just WHEN that single saved resurrection will occur.


Didn't miss a thing. 1 Cor 15:23 notes that Jesus was the first to be resurrected. And then, WHEN HE COMES, an obvious reference to the Second Coming, "those who belong to Him", which is an obvious reference to EVERY SAVED human from Adam on.

So if you think there will be a pretrib rapture, which occurs with a resurrection, you've got a huge problem with Rev 20, which specifically says the resurrection of trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection.


You have been taught false doctrine. There will be only 1 resurrection for the saved, as I have shown from several verses. Your problem is not with me, but with the Word of God.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Jesus' words, not mine. THE resurrection of the righteous. One resurrection.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Again, just one resurrection for the saved, and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15;23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

All believers will be resurrected at the same event. There are no "waves" of resurrection as you presume.

So, you tell me, from this verse, just WHEN that single saved resurrection will occur.
Where you miss it: You are asking a silly question. You are trying to pinpoint a single moment in time for this resurrection for the righteous. That is where you miss it: "first" is only a title for a resurrection and although it is first in sequence, it is also first in honor. The same Greek word was elsewhere translated as chief. It is the chief of the two resurrections. It is the resurrection title to fit all resurrections over time for the righteous. Jesus was the firstfruit of this resurrection nearly 2000 years ago. The church will be the next way. Seven years later, the Old Testament saints will be yet another wave.

Where you miss it: There will be only 1 resurrection for the saved Rather, there is one TITLE for all the resurrections for the righteous over time. John titled that resurrection as the first or chief resurrection. It is not one event, it covers all time.

 

[lamad]

John 14:1-3. But Jesus was ASSURRING the disciples that they will be in heaven. Jesus hadn't died yet. He did go to heaven as the ascension, where He did prepare a place for them. There is NOTHING sbout a rapture or Him taking resurrected believers to heaven. Zero.


EVERYONE who dies before the Second Advent WILL go to heaven. Of course. But there are NO VERSES that describe jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Zero.


Huh? What's your point here?


Actually, they have been the homes to the 11 disciples for over 2,000 years. Those believers who die at the beginning of the Trib will be in their homes for 7 years, yes, but so what?

You do NOT have a verse that describes Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

Are you aware that there is only ONE resurrection for saved people?

Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23.

Prove me wrong. I've just given you the proof.

Sorry, but your proof does not pass the test of all end time scriptures.

Look, if you wish to stay behind and "tribulate," that will be between you and God. I and the rest of the Bride are going to be where Jesus will be during those 7 years.

By the way, don't overlook the two verses in the bible that tell us the saints left behind will be overcome. Are you expecting to be overcome?

Where you miss it: God has given us all a CHOICE: we can pray to be found worthy to escape what is coming, or we can stay behind and be overcome. It seems you are choosing to be overcome. I would have to say, that is a silly choice.

 

[lamad]

I find that an examination of the ministry of Jesus shows that He wants His followers to be tough as nails and endure the worst possible scenarios, up to and including martyrdom. Many quotes by Jesus about enduring persecution and tribulation.

Jesus describes the great tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 and basically says it will be the most difficult time for people in Earth's history. There's no discussion by Jesus of escaping those difficult times until after the tribulation.

The wedding marriage and supper needs to and must require all of the brides present. Pre-trib rapture theologians must atleast allow the wedding and supper of the Lamb to occur at some point post-trib.

Then there's the matter of the first resurrection containing saints from the great tribulation per Revelation 20:4-6. Yet 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says the first resurrection occurs before the rapture. In the pre-trib theory, this creates a major theology problem and possibly a contradiction.

That's just a bit about why post-trib is a more sound and Biblical interpretation.

That is only because your definition of "the first resurrection" is not according to scripture.

 

[lamad]

Listen to yourself and your relentless comments about nothing particularly relevant or effective to elaborate why you believe the pre-trib is correct. It's just comes off as a bunch of hot air:

"Postribber...." Nope you got it wrong Jesus. We would never pray that...there is no point in it"
"I know you have zero interest in those things.
"Your deal is impossible."
"as wimpy believers that are not brave like you guys."
"You guys DEFINITELY ...NEVER... plan to escape"
"In fact you guys despise that notion...and brag about how you will be running from cave to cave with the devil man chasing you with an overgrown axe"
"If you dont know..i will look it up for you. ( you will NEVER find it in ANY postribber talking points)"
"Too funny"
"Makes no sense"
"I can ASSURE YOU... "

You've proved nothing other than that you know how to talk a lot of smack without ever actually taking time to disprove/prove anything; a lot of smoke, mirrors, distraction, and forum sliding. Your strategy is to flood Bible discussions with a lot of pointless rambling and bury quality comments worthy of proper discussion. Truly shameful.

So answer the question: do you plan on praying to be found worthy to escape - or not? It seems from your "smack" that you don't want to escape, but rather to be overcome.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Rev 12:11​

 

[lamad]

Rev 12:11​

IN CONTEXT this will be those left behind at the pretrib rapture. Most will die.

 

[CS1]

some of you think the church is subject to God's wrath we are not. The bride of Christ doesn't have to endure abuse to prove their love to God. The Rapture has never been taught as a secret, we are told He is coming for His Bride and to be ready. You are ready or you are not. Ready means at the time of death or at the appearance.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

IN CONTEXT this will be those left behind at the pretrib rapture. Most will die.

That's man-made Left-Behind doctrine.
It has no context in the prophetic narrative of scripture.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

some of you think the church is subject to God's wrath we are not. The bride of Christ doesn't have to endure abuse to prove their love to God. The Rapture has never been taught as a secret, we are told He is coming for His Bride and to be ready. You are ready or you are not. Ready means at the time of death or at the appearance.

No one here has preached that the church is subject to God's Wrath.

 

[Absolutely]

Listen to yourself and your relentless comments about nothing particularly relevant or effective to elaborate why you believe the pre-trib is correct. It's just comes off as a bunch of hot air:

"Postribber...." Nope you got it wrong Jesus. We would never pray that...there is no point in it"
"I know you have zero interest in those things.
"Your deal is impossible."
"as wimpy believers that are not brave like you guys."
"You guys DEFINITELY ...NEVER... plan to escape"
"In fact you guys despise that notion...and brag about how you will be running from cave to cave with the devil man chasing you with an overgrown axe"
"If you dont know..i will look it up for you. ( you will NEVER find it in ANY postribber talking points)"
"Too funny"
"Makes no sense"
"I can ASSURE YOU... "

You've proved nothing other than that you know how to talk a lot of smack without ever actually taking time to disprove/prove anything; a lot of smoke, mirrors, distraction, and forum sliding. Your strategy is to flood Bible discussions with a lot of pointless rambling and bury quality comments worthy of proper discussion. Truly shameful.

instead of editing to prove your superior methods, try addressing the talking points instead.

lol
I am taking YOUR BELIEFS to their logical conclusion.

And instead of "correcting" me on YOUR BELIEFS. YOU go into a rhetoric mode of my "style".
You may not like how i did it, but your failure to counter indicates your error, none the less

Please address the errors about my observations,

such as how Jesus said to pray to escape something you say is inevitable ,and praying would be useless.

 

[Absolutely]

Listen to yourself and your relentless comments about nothing particularly relevant or effective to elaborate why you believe the pre-trib is correct. It's just comes off as a bunch of hot air:

"Postribber...." Nope you got it wrong Jesus. We would never pray that...there is no point in it"
"I know you have zero interest in those things.
"Your deal is impossible."
"as wimpy believers that are not brave like you guys."
"You guys DEFINITELY ...NEVER... plan to escape"
"In fact you guys despise that notion...and brag about how you will be running from cave to cave with the devil man chasing you with an overgrown axe"
"If you dont know..i will look it up for you. ( you will NEVER find it in ANY postribber talking points)"
"Too funny"
"Makes no sense"
"I can ASSURE YOU... "

You've proved nothing other than that you know how to talk a lot of smack without ever actually taking time to disprove/prove anything; a lot of smoke, mirrors, distraction, and forum sliding. Your strategy is to flood Bible discussions with a lot of pointless rambling and bury quality comments worthy of proper discussion. Truly shameful.

Your strategy is to flood Bible discussions with a lot of pointless rambling and bury quality comments worthy of proper discussion. Truly shameful.

Do you ever actually counter a challenge intelligently?????

That is some great strategy of yours to edit quotes and then try some little smear job.

try this on..
get a bible and lets look at the 2 escape verses.

And be honest. don't pretend you guys do not think we are the wimps that cant take the supposed gt, where you guys envision being pursued by the ac.

You get all worked up when your beliefs are brought foreword.

you really gonna insist that you do not believe you guys are going to be chased by the ac?????????

No sir....your beliefs are at the front and you dont like it.

 

[Absolutely]

No one here has preached that the church is subject to God's Wrath.

the ac kills all refusing the mark.
It says in the bible that power is given to the ac to overcome the saints
it says "all take the mark"
The 4 horsemen deliver grief never before seen on the planet, and , ARE SENT FROM HEAVEN.

you postribs think some "wrath vs trib" is the basis for some false idea that the pretrib verses are somehow voided.

postrib rapture is BASED ON OMISSION.
That is a fact.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""It would make sense that the symbolic 144,000=total amount of God's elects since beginning of creation till end of time. They have feast after Great White Throne Judgment."""


nope
Because they are " first fruits".
IOW they are a small portion of the main jewish harvest vividly depicted in rev 14.

Nope. Ch 14 is a look-ahead of what's coming. It's not chronologically placed in the overall narrative.

 

[Absolutely]

That's man-made Left-Behind doctrine.
It has no context in the prophetic narrative of scripture.

Good thing we got a bible
You did not investigate, Your teachers fooled you.

Mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

mat 25
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

oooops

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""The wedding marriage and supper needs to and must require all of the brides present.

You got that right! And that happens when Christ returns at the Second Advent, where He resurrects ALL believers. Just as 1 Cor 15:23 plainly says: But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

As you know, 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection chapter. And Paul made it clear that ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes". The ONLY time that will be possible is AFTER the Trib when Jesus comes back.

We also see the marriage supper has already happened...Just as Jesus declared at the last supper.

Nope. The Bride is getting ready. And 19:9 - "Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.” makes no sense if it already occurred 7 years before.

What does "are invited" mean to you? It means people are invited to what is about to occur.

The gathering of the Jews in rev 14 is the last group seated at the wedding supper.

And that will happen when Jesus sets up His Millennial kingdom after He comes back at the Second Advent as King of kings.

These are more hidden truths that are unpacked as time marches forward.

There are no "hidden truths". It's all laid out very clearly.

1. There is ONE resurrection of the saved, per Luke 14:14 and Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 14:23.
2. We know the resurrection of Trib martyrs occurs after the Trib.

 

[Absolutely]

No matter what

mat 24 "before the flood" can not be changed.

lot delivered before the sodom judgement can not be changed.


and yet postribbers DO JUST THAT. they have the church delivered after the flood and sodom destroyed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""Then there's the matter of the first resurrection containing saints from the great tribulation per Revelation 20:4-6. Yet 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says the first resurrection occurs before the rapture.

You're just trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

At the Second Advent, Jesus brings with Him all the saved that are already in heaven. He gives all of them resurrection bodies. Then, those who are still alive are gathered together with THEM and receive their resurrection bodies.

That's WHY the resurrection mentioned about the Trib martyrs is called the FIRST resurrertion.

Explain 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Explain how there can be "waves" of resurrections or multiple resurrections from this verse.