Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Jocund]

Your [counterpoints] are answered as follows;
1) ["earth was reaped refers to the grapes of wrath"] not really...
2) yes messianic ethnic Jews. Not proselyite Jews from other nations.
3) no...you made every bit of that up
4) yes SOME DO...SOME DO NOT, it is usually obvious.

1) You are entitled to an opinion but you can't deny that "earth was reaped" can refer to the grapes of wrath rather than a rapture.
2) the term you are looking for is Jewish Christians. On what scriptural grounds are you ruling out proselytes? Proselytes also belong to a respective tribe. Which in turn means that any convert to Christianity follows that theme as well (perhaps assuming that the convert didn't have a relevant ancestry to start).
3) It is an interpretation with equal standing and scriptural consistency as your interpretation. If you feel so strongly, demonstrate with scripture how the 144000 couldn't be those that had died before the crucifixion.
4) If you agree, that means that the passage you indicated can't be used to place the point in time that your claimed raptures occurred.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""Are you aware that there have been 2 men who were taken to heaven without dying or being raptured way before all this? What makes you think the 144K have been raptured? Just more presumptions."""

Take it up with Jesus.

Of course I already have. And we are on the same page, because I believe His Word.

Rev 14 begins with 144k firstfruit jews harvested from the earth and before the throne IN HEAVEN.

Sure. Future event. Don't you know the Bible has a lot to say about future events?

I AM JUST REPORTING what is there.

I am just explaining what is there.

You saying they are not pictured in heaven?

Didn't say that.

Kinda bizarre you going against what is written.

Kinda bizarre that you seem unable to understand my words.

Also bizarre that you reframe Jesus harvesting that same mass of Jews that he got the 144k firstfruits from as something other than what is clearly worded.

The 144K are evangelists IN the Trib. Maybe you didn't know that.

"""There is no mid trib rapture"""

THIS;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

So you disagree with one of your pretribber scholars, Henry Morris. Doesn't matter. The harvesting of the earth is judgment ON the earth. But you are free to believe whatever you would like.

Three events.
1st event
2nd event
3rd event.

OK, you've proved that you can count to 3.

I just report what is there.

And I just explain what is there.

Anyone can report what is written and/or said. But that doesn't mean they understand any of it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Kind of a goofy question, don'tcha think? Do you think I'm Jewish, or Indian?

The 144k are ethnic jewish firstfruits.
Firstfruits is a PORTION of main harvest.
So we are dealing with millions of Jews.

( that would be tribes)

I'm not Jewish. And there is NO rapture of Jews anytime in the Trib. The 144K are believers. So they "belong to Him", and will be resurrected with every other believer when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Red words refer to Second Advent. Blue words are ALL believers from Adam forward.

You're welcome.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The 144k are ethnic jewish firstfruits.
Firstfruits is a PORTION of main harvest.
So we are dealing with millions of Jews.

OK. But, so what?

 

[Absolutely]

1) You are entitled to an opinion but you can't deny that "earth was reaped" can refer to the grapes of wrath rather than a rapture.
2) the term you are looking for is Jewish Christians. On what scriptural grounds are you ruling out proselytes? Proselytes also belong to a respective tribe. Which in turn means that any convert to Christianity follows that theme as well (perhaps assuming that the convert didn't have a relevant ancestry to start).
3) It is an interpretation with equal standing and scriptural consistency as your interpretation. If you feel so strongly, demonstrate with scripture how the 144000 couldn't be those that had died before the crucifixion.
4) If you agree, that means that the passage you indicated can't be used to place the point in time that your claimed raptures occurred.

"""You are entitled to an opinion but you can't deny that "earth was reaped" can refer to the grapes of wrath rather than a rapture""".

You are entitled to your opinion, but the last group gathered in rev 14 is to the winepress.
You made the other group included "into wrath"which you are stating as a fact.
A baseless assertion by you.

"""2) the term you are looking for is Jewish Christians. On what scriptural grounds are you ruling out proselytes? Proselytes also belong to a respective tribe. Which in turn means that any convert to Christianity follows that theme as well (perhaps assuming that the convert didn't have a relevant ancestry to start)."""

It says tribes. Why do you need it to be something else?

"""3) It is an interpretation with equal standing and scriptural consistency as your interpretation. If you feel so strongly, demonstrate with scripture how the 144000 couldn't be those that had died before the crucifixion."""

I am only reporting the obvious.
If you can prove that strange position...then i will listen


"""4) If you agree, that means that the passage you indicated can't be used to place the point in time that your claimed raptures occurred"""
Are you saying ch 14 is not during the trib?
If so, what is the basis of that assumption.

 

[Absolutely]

OK. But, so what?

glad you agree.

Are those gathered in rev 14 preceding the dead IN CHRIST raised in 1Thes 4?

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
Kind of a goofy question, don'tcha think? Do you think I'm Jewish, or Indian?

I'm not Jewish. And there is NO rapture of Jews anytime in the Trib. The 144K are believers. So they "belong to Him", and will be resurrected with every other believer when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Red words refer to Second Advent. Blue words are ALL believers from Adam forward.

You're welcome.

Nope
Reread it.
144k ETHNIC JEWS.
BECAUSE they are ETHNIC JEWISH FIRSTFRUITS, THEY ARE a CROSSECTION OR "GATHERING FROM" ethnic jews.
Once the facts are laid out, THEN make assertions.

Do you understand the meaning of firstfruits?

Do you think firstfruit apples represents a harvest of tomatoes?

You just stumbled on an inescapable dynamic.

If the average end time student reads " firstfruit ETHNIC jews" IN THE BIBLE, the question is AUTOMATIC....." WHAT FIRSTFRUITS?"
HOW ARE THEY FIRSTFRUITS?

That is addressed.
Not how you may or may not like it.
But none the less addressed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

glad you agree.

Are those gathered in rev 14 preceding the dead IN CHRIST raised in 1Thes 4?

Again, the "gathering' in Rev 14 isn't about a rapture, but judgment on the earth.

My position is what the Bible says; there is A resurrection (singular) for the saved and A resurrection (singular) for the unsaved.

Acts 14:25 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be A resurrection(singular) of both the righteous and the wicked.

Now for the saved:

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, all believers are resurrected/raptured "WHEN He comes". And that is shown to be AFTER the Trib, per 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:4.

I reject any concept of a "phased" resurrection. There is only 1 for the saved and 1 for the unsaved.

The Bible says so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nope
Reread it.
144k ETHNIC JEWS.
BECAUSE they are ETHNIC JEWISH FIRSTFRUITS, THEY ARE a CROSSECTION OR "GATHERING FROM" ethnic jews.
Once the facts are laid out, THEN make assertions.

Do you understand the meaning of firstfruits?

Do you think firstfruit apples represents a harvest of tomatoes?

You just stumbled on an inescapable dynamic.

If the average end time student reads " firstfruit ETHNIC jews" IN THE BIBLE, the question is AUTOMATIC....." WHAT FIRSTFRUITS?"
HOW ARE THEY FIRSTFRUITS?

That is addressed.
Not how you may or may not like it.
But none the less addressed.

I'm not interested in your obsession with Rev 14. I don't believe you even understand what it says.

 

[Absolutely]

Anyone who's studied this knows (or should know) that when John Nelson Darby was inventing his dispensationalism he face a dilemma. He believed the church age would end and a new age—or dispensation—would begin in which God would once again turn His attention to the Jews. But what would bring about the end of the church age? The pre-tribulation rapture of course. He didn't get this idea by studying the scripture and having a revelation from the Lord. He was actively looking for something to fit his preconceived notions of dispensationalism.

The pre-trib rapture isn't taught in scripture. It's a pure fabrication. And the fact that so many people have bought into it proves people don't understand God's word.

FlyingDove said:
Below find 4 more translations pre 1611 KJV that ALL say departure not falling away.

1526 Tyndale Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst"" and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1537 Matthews Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the Lord cometh not/except ther come a departure"" that the sinfull man opened/the son of perdition

1535 Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)
2 Thes 2:3 Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORD commeth not, ""except the departynge come 1st"" and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

1540 The Great Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lord comes not except a departure first"", and the sinfull man be showed, son of perdition,

Find supporting scripture on Gods people (Body of Christ/Church) escaping wrath:

We see here the church escaping the wrath of the great tribulation soon to be poured out

1 Thes 1:10, And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even ""Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come""

Rom 5:9 being now justified by his blood ""we shall be saved from wrath"" through him

1 thes 5:9 ""God hath not appointed us to wrath"" but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

The angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear

Noah and his family were delivered from wrath before the flood came

The great tribulation to come is called the time of Jacobs/Israels trouble Jer 30:7.

Additionally:

At the physical return when Jesus STANDS on MT. Olive. The caught-up/raptured saints are with the Lord.

Zec 14:
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(MY NOTE: When Jesus returns HIS FEET shall stand on Mt Olives (same place he ascended from Acts 1:9-11)

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
(MY NOTE: The LORD my God shall come & all the saints are with him).

5 On that day His feet will stand on Mt Olive. The Mt will split in 2 from east to west. Then the Lord your God will come, & all the saints with Him.
(MY NOTE: The LORD my God shall come & all the saints are with him)

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(MY NOTE: When the Lord returns ten thousands of his saints are with him)

1 Thes 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
(MY NOTE: When the Lord Jesus returns ALL his saints are with him)

 

[Absolutely]

I'm not interested in your obsession with Rev 14. I don't believe you even understand what it says.

Better to just leave it out.
Pretend it does not say what it does.
Live in that world if you will

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm not interested in your obsession with Rev 14. I don't believe you even understand what it says.

Better to just leave it out.
Pretend it does not say what it does.
Live in that world if you will

I live in the world of reality. I"m not obsessed with anything, as you as.

Rev 14 just doesn't mean what you obsess and think it means. The harvesting is about judgment, not rapture.

No verse ever refers to the rapture as a harvest.

 

[Mem]

I dusted off my bookshelves and was delighted to find that I have a Nave's Topical Bible copyright Orville J. Nave 1896/ Orville J. Nave 1897/ J.B. Henderson 1921, so I thought I'd skim through it. I found topics such as "Second Coming of Jesus Christ" and "Resurrection," but looking for the topic of "Rapture," I find it's missing, taken or left behind... ?

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm not interested in your obsession with Rev 14. I don't believe you even understand what it says.

I live in the world of reality. I"m not obsessed with anything, as you as.

Rev 14 just doesn't mean what you obsess and think it means. The harvesting is about judgment, not rapture.

No verse ever refers to the rapture as a harvest.

Just pretend all harvests stop at firstfruits.
No gathering/ rapture/ catching away afterwards..

Maybe just pretend all of rev 14 is a mistake.

We of course both know why you skip it.

Kinda funny how, when pressed, you go to " workbook" mode.(omit,reframe, repeat)

Rev 14 destroys mans doctrine.

You...." You are obsessed with Rev 14."
Oh yeah, you will use anything but what it says....

Your Obsession with your debunked assessment of end times.
Rev 14 is but one item. There are many others you have reframed and omitted.

But none so vivid and destroying of false end times positions as rev 14.

Stay on target now. Keep looking at rev 14 dynamics and SHOW ME the real interpretation.
All those things you say are not so?
Show me how they can not be.
Show me the real meaning.

No snotty attacks.
No workbooks.
Just your superior unpacking.

Lets go.

....and btw the rapture is a gathering if the bride , by the groom.

Impossible to miss....but some need it to be something other than what it plainly is.

Oh...and it is very basic that any harvest is a gathering.

Please...no rabbit trails

 

[Absolutely]

""".... The harvesting is about judgment, not rapture.

No verse ever refers to the rapture as a harvest."""

Call it what you want.
The bible has Jesus harvesting WHAT in rev 14?

Do factor in that the firstfruits Jews are harvested FIRST, AND IN HEAVEN IMMEDIATELY BEFORE JESUS IS TOLD TO HARVEST RIPE FRUIT.

But to you it HAS TO BE SOMETHING ELSE?

 

[Absolutely]

"""I'm not Jewish. And there is NO rapture of Jews anytime in the Trib. The 144K are believers. So they "belong to Him", and will be resurrected with every other believer when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent."""

HELLO
Neither the 144k or the ripe fruit have ANY INDICATION of dying and yet are harvested TO HEAVEN.

So now your false doctrine has you in another embarrassing situation.

 

[Absolutely]

"""I'm not interested in your obsession with Rev 14. I don't believe you even understand what it says.""""

You are not interested in what it says.

Yes i know that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Just pretend all harvests stop at firstfruits.

I don't pretend anything. That's just childish.

And the harvests in Rev 14 are judgments.

....and btw the rapture is a gathering if the bride , by the groom.

The VAST Majority of the Bride is already in heaven, when Jesus comes back to earth to resurrect the "trib martyrs" in Rev 20:4.

Oh...and it is very basic that any harvest is a gathering.

Only when taken literally. And everyone knows that there's a lot of symbolism and figures of speech in Rev.

Please...no rabbit trails

Of which you are full of.

 

[FreeGrace2]

""".... The harvesting is about judgment, not rapture.

No verse ever refers to the rapture as a harvest."""

Call it what you want.

I always use biblical terms.

The bible has Jesus harvesting WHAT in rev 14?

The earth. And the Tribulation is the time of God's judgment ON the earth, since you seem sketchy on the subject.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Neither the 144k or the ripe fruit have ANY INDICATION of dying and yet are harvested TO HEAVEN.

OK, show me the verse that says "harvested TO HEAVEN".

I dare you.

So now your false doctrine has you in another embarrassing situation.

We'll see who has the false doctrine and should be quite embarrassed