Saved by Water

[justbyfaith]

I do. You would do well to properly understand the Trinity.

I do understand it properly.

As it is, you have God talking to Himself.

The Holy Spirit is God; and He makes intercession within us to the Father (Romans 8:26-27); who is also God.

The conclusion that I have made is logical.

And you haven't explained how Jesus can be in the water and sky at the same time, or on the mountain and in the sky at the same time, or in the Garden asking Himself "not My will, but Yours".

You haven't explained how Jesus can be in heaven and on earth at the same time (in John 3:13).

But the answer is that before and after He descended and ascended, He exists outside of time. (try to put your thinking cap on so I don't have to explain this to you further).

Your view makes no sense.

My view makes perfect sense.

However, 1 Corinthians 1:18-29 very likely is applicable in your case.

What does make sense is that the 3 separate Persons all have the same attributes and characteristics. That's what is meant by "One'.

One in essence. That explains what you can't.

Yes, one in essence / Spirit.

This means that they are all the same Spirit.

Even as it is written,

Jhn 4:24, God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Eph 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

 

[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith said, My view in no way contradicts any of the Trinitarian creeds; while I believe that your view does contradict them.
@FreeGrace2 said, I didn't ask this. I asked for evidence that orthodox evangelicalism aligns with your view,

What I have stated indicates that orthodox Christianity is in agreement with my understanding; while it is not in agreement with your (mormon) point of view.

 

[justbyfaith]

@FreeGrace2,

Consider that there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

Yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

And, Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord (1 Corinthians 12:5, 2 Corinthians 8:19).
.
.
.
There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

In light of this information, can you say that Jesus is the Lord?
.
.
.
If you cannot, then you do not have the Holy Ghost.

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

And if you do not have the Holy Ghost, you are not saved.

Rom 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[justbyfaith]

I would highly encourage you to look up the scriptures that I reference to see whether they actually say what I am saying that they say.

Be a Berean (Acts 17:10-11).

 

[FreeGrace2]

@FreeGrace2,

You are obviously beyond hope.

My sentiments about you.

Very likely because you never received baptism in Jesus' Name (see Luke 7:29-30).

As far as i know, most evangelicals baptise in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. To insinuate that is "wrong", or incorrect, or something, is absurd.

I will not go so far as to judge your salvation

Good, because that would be stupid.

...I will allow for the fact that I may be wrong concerning Acts 2:38 salvation.

Keep your eyes open.

But the fact that you judge me to be some sort of heretic,

Where have I made such a claim?

1) puts me in the same company with Paul the apostle (Acts 24:14);

2) means that you will be judged accordingly (Luke 6:37); and,

3) puts you outside of the realm of sound doctrine; since what I am preaching is sound doctrine and your rejection of it is therefore a rejection of sound doctrine. Because I believe that God gave the following scriptures to me: John 15:20, 1 John 4:6.

Since I never accused you of being a heretic, #1-3 are irrelevant.

And, to be clear, God gave ALL Scripture to everyone, not just to you. You have no more claim on any verse than I do.

But if you want to debate the Trinity further, I would suggest debating it from the beginning of the following thread:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-the-trinity-as-a-doctrine.201406/

As we are in danger of hijacking this one since the subject of this thread is whether or not baptism has the power to save a man.

I've already made my point concerning your view of the Trinity. You believe there is One God who wears 3 hats, and talks to Himself, even when the discussion doesn't fit a monologue.

You have not explained how Jesus (God) can be IN the water and IN the sky at the same time.

You have not explained how Jesus can be ON the mountain and IN the sky at the same time.

These events prove that the 3 Persons are separate. That's the ONLY WAY to explain Jesus being talked to from the sky when He was IN the water and ON the mountain.

Your view cannot explain that.

If your view were right, then the vast majority of evangelicalism is wrong.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As it is, you have God talking to Himself.

The Holy Spirit is God; and He makes intercession within us to the Father (Romans 8:26-27); who is also God.

But what's the point? Why talk to yourself when "making intercession"? Again, it proves my point. The members of the Trinity DO talk to each other and this proves that they are separate.

The conclusion that I have made is logical.

It's very illogical.

You haven't explained how Jesus can be in heaven and on earth at the same time (in John 3:13).

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man."

Where do you get "at the same time" from this verse? I don't see it. Your comment indicates that you aren't reading the verse correctly.

But the answer is that before and after He descended and ascended, He exists outside of time. (try to put your thinking cap on so I don't have to explain this to you further).

Simple. All the members exist outside of time. Except when Jesus entered time and took on bodily form.

My view makes perfect sense.

Only to you and the Jesus Only movement guys.

Yes, one in essence / Spirit.

No, I was clear. One in attributes and characteristics.

Even as it is written,

Jhn 4:24, God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I explained this verse to you. The second "spirit" refers to the human spirit.

Eph 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

This refers to the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What I have stated indicates that orthodox Christianity is in agreement with my understanding; while it is not in agreement with your (mormon) point of view.

All you are giving is your opinion. You have no facts, no evidence, only your take on Scripture. And assuming that orthodox Christianity agrees with you.

Again, your views are close to the Jesus only movement, as indicated by your question regarding my baptism.

I've witnessed hundreds, if not thousands, of baptisms over many decades. Not once was anyone baptized in the "name of Jesus". Every time, Matt 28:20 was the pattern.

So don't tell me your view aligns with orthodox Christianity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

@FreeGrace2,

Consider that there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

What is this attempt at conflation? Yes, there is One Lord, and there is One Father. 2 Separate Persons. That's why the Father, from heaven could talk to Jesus, who was IN the water and ON the mountain.

your view cannot account for that. Jesus would have had to be a ventroloquist to pull that off.

I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord (1 Corinthians 12:5, 2 Corinthians 8:19).

I have already shown your view to be untenable. Explain Jesus talking to Himself from heaven while He was IN the water and ON the mountain.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would highly encourage you to look up the scriptures that I reference to see whether they actually say what I am saying that they say.

Be a Berean (Acts 17:10-11).

That is how I study. And you simply FAIL to "rightly divide the Word of Truth".

I've shown you the impossibility of your view of the Trinity by the following:

1. Jesus' baptism and the Father speaking to Him from the sky.
2. Jesus ON the mountain and the Father speaking to Him from the sky.
3. Jesus in the Garden pleading with His Father. If He was talking to Himself, that would be nuts.
4. Jesus on the cross asking the Father and Holy Spirit why they were forsaking Him. Again, why bother with such a question if He was only talking to Himself?

 

[justbyfaith]

You believe there is One God who wears 3 hats,

No, I do not.

You have not explained how Jesus (God) can be IN the water and IN the sky at the same time.

I have.

You have not explained how Jesus can be ON the mountain and IN the sky at the same time.

I have.

These events prove that the 3 Persons are separate.

It proves that they are distinct.

The creeds specifically state that the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord. But that we are forbidden by orthodoxy to say that there are three Lords. I conclude that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, according to the creeds, are the same Lord. Distinct rather than separate.

If your view were right, then the vast majority of evangelicalism is wrong.

See Matthew 7:13-14.

But what's the point? Why talk to yourself when "making intercession"? Again, it proves my point. The members of the Trinity DO talk to each other and this proves that they are separate.

It proves that they are distinct; for there is one God (James 2:19); and we do well to believe that.

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man."

Where do you get "at the same time" from this verse? I don't see it. Your comment indicates that you aren't reading the verse correctly.

Look it up in the kjv.

My view makes perfect sense.
Only to you and the Jesus Only movement guys.Only to you and the Jesus Only movement guys.

Perhaps that is because we have the true version of the Holy Ghost; since we have fulfilled the condition to receive the promise (Acts 2:38-39).

No, I was clear. One in attributes and characteristics.

I believe that you said that they are one in essence.

I explained this verse to you. The second "spirit" refers to the human spirit.

Irrelevant.

Because the first "Spirit" refers to the Father being a Spirit.

This refers to the Holy Spirit.

It refers to the Father and the Holy Ghost (John 4:23-24, John 7:39); while there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

So don't tell me your view aligns with orthodox Christianity.

It does.

I have already shown your view to be untenable.

I have shown my view to be scriptural; but you have not looked up the verses that I have referenced; or else you are in denial of what they plainly say to you.

That is how I study.

I sincerely doubt that. Because if it were, you would have looked up the verses that I have referenced; and clearly seen that what I am saying is scriptural; whether you believe it to be tenable or not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You believe there is One God who wears 3 hats,

No, I do not.

It is what you have described.

It proves that they are distinct.

Separate and distinct.

The creeds specifically state that the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord. But that we are forbidden by orthodoxy to say that there are three Lords. I conclude that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, according to the creeds, are the same Lord. Distinct rather than separate.

You still can't defend or explain how Jesus can be IN the water and IN the sky talking to Himself.
You still can't defend or explain how Jesus can be ON the mountain and IN the sky talking to Himself.
You still can't defend or explain how jesus can be IN the Garden talking to Himself about "not My will, but YOURS be done".
You still can't defend or explain how jesus can be ON the cross talking to Himself about why He has forsaken Himself.

But you just don't see the total absurdity of it all.

FreeGrace2 said:
But what's the point? Why talk to yourself when "making intercession"? Again, it proves my point. The members of the Trinity DO talk to each other and this proves that they are separate.

It proves that they are distinct

It proves they are separate persons.

for there is one God (James 2:19); and we do well to believe that.

Same attributes and characteristics in 3 Persons. Obviously.

FreeGrace2 said:
"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man."
Where do you get "at the same time" from this verse? I don't see it. Your comment indicates that you aren't reading the verse correctly.

Look it up in the kjv.

You'll have to cite the verse again. I can't find the post.

FreeGrace2 said:
My view makes perfect sense.
Only to you and the Jesus Only movement guys.Only to you and the Jesus Only movement guys.

Perhaps that is because we have the true version of the Holy Ghost; since we have fulfilled the condition to receive the promise (Acts 2:38-39).

At least you're admitting you are one of them. They are NOT orthodox Christians. Most of Evangelical Christianity rejects their view.

FreeGrace2 said:
No, I was clear. One in attributes and characteristics.

I believe that you said that they are one in essence.

Essence includes attributes and characteristics.

I have shown my view to be scriptural

No, you have shown a deep misunderstanding of Scripture.

I sincerely doubt that. Because if it were, you would have looked up the verses that I have referenced; and clearly seen that what I am saying is scriptural; whether you believe it to be tenable or not.

It is not tenable for Jesus to be talking to Himself. Esp given the kind of conversations that were recorded.

I've pointed out the conversations between Jesus and His Father where it is obvious that they are NOT the same Person.

 

[justbyfaith]

Separate and distinct.

Distinct, not separate; even according to the creeds.

You still can't defend or explain how Jesus can be IN the water and IN the sky talking to Himself.
You still can't defend or explain how Jesus can be ON the mountain and IN the sky talking to Himself.
You still can't defend or explain how jesus can be IN the Garden talking to Himself about "not My will, but YOURS be done".
You still can't defend or explain how jesus can be ON the cross talking to Himself about why He has forsaken Himself.

But you just don't see the total absurdity of it all.

I have explained it (however, you probably do not have a high enough I.Q. to be able to comprehend what I have been saying).

Before Jesus descended He was outside of time. After He ascended He is outside of time.

So, He exists in eternity which overlaps with the time that He was walking the earth.

Also, the Son is distinctly human and therefore has a human will; which is distinct from the will of the Father since the Father isn't human (except in the Person of the Son).

And, the Father is in heaven while Jesus is on earth; since the Father is an eternal Spirit who inhabits eternity.

He lived one eternal moment and then descended to take on an added nature of human flesh,

Eph 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

It proves they are separate persons.

No; distinct.

Same attributes and characteristics in 3 Persons. Obviously.

One God (James 2:19).

You'll have to cite the verse again. I can't find the post.

John 3:13.

At least you're admitting you are one of them. They are NOT orthodox Christians. Most of Evangelical Christianity rejects their view.

While I have been baptized in the same manner as they, I differ from them in that I believe in distinctions in the members of the Trinity and also in that I do not any longer attend a Oneness fellowship.

Essence includes attributes and characteristics.

Essence is who the Person truly is.

No, you have shown a deep misunderstanding of Scripture.

Nope.

It is not tenable for Jesus to be talking to Himself. Esp given the kind of conversations that were recorded.

I've pointed out the conversations between Jesus and His Father where it is obvious that they are NOT the same Person.

We have one God (James 2:19). The Holy Ghost, being God, makes intercession through us and for us (Romans 8:26-27) to the Father, who is God. God talking to God.

If you can't comprehend that, keep studying.

If you come to understand the nature of the Trinity, you must understand it through the lens of the Oneness of the Lord. For God is not three Gods.

However, you appear to be one who stubbornly asserts that He is three Gods.

In this, you are not in the realm of orthodoxy; as you are in contention against the Trinitarian creeds.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Distinct, not separate; even according to the creeds.

You don't know what you are talking about.

FreeGrace2 said:
You still can't defend or explain how Jesus can be IN the water and IN the sky talking to Himself.
You still can't defend or explain how Jesus can be ON the mountain and IN the sky talking to Himself.
You still can't defend or explain how jesus can be IN the Garden talking to Himself about "not My will, but YOURS be done".
You still can't defend or explain how jesus can be ON the cross talking to Himself about why He has forsaken Himself.
But you just don't see the total absurdity of it all.

I have explained it (however, you probably do not have a high enough I.Q. to be able to comprehend what I have been saying).

You have just shown your absurdity. You haven't explained any of this. And anyone with a warm IQ can easily see that no single person can talk to themselves from different places at the same time.

Maybe you don't have the IQ to understand that.

And, the Father is in heaven while Jesus is on earth

Again proving that they are separate Persons.

John 3:13.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is inheaven.

While I have been baptized in the same manner as they, I differ from them in that I believe in distinctions in the members of the Trinity and also in that I do not any longer attend a Oneness fellowship.

You're still closer to them than orthodox Christianity.

Essence is who the Person truly is.

In the case of the Trinity or Godhead; all separate Persons have the same essence.

For God is not three Gods.

I've never said that. There is one God in 3 Persons. Not one God in one Person.

However, you appear to be one who stubbornly asserts that He is three Gods.

Show me any quote or post where I have asserted that God is 3 Gods. Or just quit LYING.

In this, you are not in the realm of orthodoxy; as you are in contention against the Trinitarian creeds.

I reject your strange theology.

 

[justbyfaith]

You don't know what you are talking about.

I know exactly what I am talking about.

I have studied the scriptures for over thirty years with the doctrine of the Trinity on the backburner of my thinking; as I sought to find that the holy scriptures say on the matter.

You have just shown your absurdity. You haven't explained any of this. And anyone with a warm IQ can easily see that no single person can talk to themselves from different places at the same time.

Maybe you don't have the IQ to understand that.

I have explained it. Maybe you should go and think about what I have said.

If you will think about it instead of glossing over it, perhaps you will be able to understand my reasoning.

Again proving that they are separate Persons.

No; distinct.

You're still closer to them than orthodox Christianity.

I emphasize the Oneness of the Lord in order to avoid the heresy of Tritheism.

For, I believe that some, who think of themselves as Trinitarians, are in the core of their thinking, Tritheists.

Since, according to the creeds, a Tritheist will not enter the kingdom, I contend for the Oneness of the Lord in my theology.

While I do believe in distinctions between the members of the Trinity; which I have explained what the nature of that is.

In the case of the Trinity or Godhead; all separate Persons have the same essence.

If they are the same essence, then they are the same Spirit.

But you would contend otherwise.

So, you are not thinking clearly.

I've never said that. There is one God in 3 Persons. Not one God in one Person.

In saying that they are separate rather than distinct, you are preaching three Gods.

Show me any quote or post where I have asserted that God is 3 Gods. Or just quit LYING.

No lie.

I reject your strange theology.

That is to your own eternal, spiritual peril.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You have just shown your absurdity. You haven't explained any of this. And anyone with a warm IQ can easily see that no single person can talk to themselves from different places at the same time.

I have explained it. Maybe you should go and think about what I have said.

You know full well that you NEVER explained how Jesus could talk to Himself when IN the water yet IN the sky, or ON the mountain yet IN the sky, or ON the cross yet somewhere above.

If you will think about it instead of glossing over it, perhaps you will be able to understand my reasoning.

Your reasoning is unreasonable and illogical. And you haven't explained it.

Since, according to the creeds, a Tritheist will not enter the kingdom, I contend for the Oneness of the Lord in my theology.

I couldn't care less what any creeds opine, but I care very much what the Bible says.

While I do believe in distinctions between the members of the Trinity; which I have explained what the nature of that is.

Your "distinctions" are without a difference. That's the problem.

If they are the same essence, then they are the same Spirit.

Your mind is made up, and doesn't want the facts.

But you would contend otherwise.

Of course I do. The Bible has members of the Trinity talking to each other. That's normal. But if all members are just "one", then it's totally abnormal.

I know that your mind is made up and facts don't matter.

So, you are not thinking clearly.

your opinion only. The FACT that members of the Trinity talk to each other proves that they are separate Persons.

In saying that they are separate rather than distinct, you are preaching three Gods.

You and your Oness fellows may think whateveer your want. But you CAN'T explain how Jesus talks to Himself while IN the water and IN the sky. Etc etc etc.

That is to your own eternal, spiritual peril.

You should worry about your own.

The conversations recorded in the Bible between members of the Trinity prove that they are separate.

But your mind has been made up so facts don't matter.

you claim your Oneness view is orthodox Christianity, but you haven't proven it. Just as you can't explain the conversations between members of the Trinity. You are quite willing to accept that Jesus is talking to Himself, even though those conversations would be ridiculous if only 1 member was involved.

You basically have Jesus wearing 3 hats. Thats all you have.

 

[justbyfaith]

You know full well that you NEVER explained how Jesus could talk to Himself when IN the water yet IN the sky, or ON the mountain yet IN the sky, or ON the cross yet somewhere above.

I have in fact explained this.

Your reasoning is unreasonable and illogical. And you haven't explained it.

I have done so.

I couldn't care less what any creeds opine, but I care very much what the Bible says.

If that were the case, you would accept my point of view; because my point of view is biblical.

Your "distinctions" are without a difference. That's the problem.

No, there is a difference. The Father is a Spirit without flesh while the Son is come in the flesh.

Of course I do. The Bible has members of the Trinity talking to each other. That's normal. But if all members are just "one", then it's totally abnormal.

The members of the Trinity are distinct from one another. yet, we have one God (James 2:19, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6), one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6), and one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4)

See also post #1 of the following thread:

https://christianchat.com/threads/understanding-the-trinity-as-a-doctrine.201406/post-4651747

your opinion only. The FACT that members of the Trinity talk to each other proves that they are separate Persons.

No; distinct.

You and your Oness fellows may think whateveer your want. But you CAN'T explain how Jesus talks to Himself while IN the water and IN the sky. Etc etc etc.

I have already explained it, but you do not receive my explanation.

The conversations recorded in the Bible between members of the Trinity prove that they are separate.

No; distinct.

you claim your Oneness view is orthodox Christianity, but you haven't proven it.

My point of view in no way contradicts the orthodox creeds of Christianity;

Yours does.

You basically have Jesus wearing 3 hats. Thats all you have.

No, my perspective is not that Jesus is wearing three hats. I consider that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct individuals within the Trinity.

 

[justbyfaith]

The members of the Trinity are distinct from one another. yet, we have one God (James 2:19, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6), one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6), and one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4)

See also post #1 of the following thread:

https://christianchat.com/threads/understanding-the-trinity-as-a-doctrine.201406/post-4651747

I will attempt to explain the Trinity with the following things in mind.

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Tit 2:1, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (John 4:24, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6); the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, James 3:9 (kjv), Romans 15:6, Ephesians 4:6), the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33), and the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:3-4, Romans 8:26-27).

With this in mind, I encourage the reader to interpret 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 and Ephesians 4:4-6.

That being said, there are distinctions between the members of the Trinity.

The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh.

The Son is the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:24) dwelling in human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 john 1:7).

The Holy Ghost is the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 7:39); after having lived a human life in the Person of the Son (see Luke 23:46); released to the Father in eternity from the human body of the Son; and who also descends into time in order to produce holy scripture (1 Peter 1:11) and to work within the church in order to win souls to Jesus Christ.

The Father, in the descending into time to take on an added nature of human flesh, did not VACATE ETERNITY.

So, when Jesus releases His Spirit (see John 14:7-11) back into eternity, there is now one God existing beside Himself in eternity; as there are two distinct Persons in the Father and the Holy Ghost who are infinite in nature.

The Son also being infinite in nature in His Deity; however in His humanity, which has received a glorified human body likened unto the angels (Matthew 22:30), He is of a finite nature and as He said, "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28); while as concerning His Deity He is equal to the Father (John 5:18).

For I contend that the Son is the Son in the reality that there is a hypostatic union of the two natures of humanity and Deity.

I also contend that the Son was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35); but that He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) in the Person of the Holy Ghost.

 

[peldom10]

You can believe what you want. But if they are "the same person" then you have this "same person" talking to himself.

Gen 1:26 - Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

2 Cor13:14 - May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Matt 3:16,17
16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Luke 22:41,4
41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

Mark 9:7 - Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”

1 John 1:3 - We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. Notice “with the Father AND with His Son”

1 John 2:1 - My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

1 John 2:24 - As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. Again, notice the AND.

1 John 4:10 - This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

1 John 4:14,15

14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.

1 John 5:5 - Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

1 John 5:9-11

9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

2 John 3 - Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love.

2 John 9 - Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Jude 1 - Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Rev 1:1 - The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Rev 2:27 - that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

This is just some examples of very specific wording regarding the 3 distinct Persons of the Trinity.

One thing should be very clear. No one can be their own father or their own son. Much less both.

God is omnipotent and is not limited in what He does. But, He NEVER violates His own standards, integrity, etc. As such, God cannot sin. And, God cannot be irrational.

These verses, plus many more, show clearly that the Father and the Son are separate Persons who talk WITH EACH OTHER and not One who talks to Himself.

Try reading these verses while keeping in mind that those talking are the same person, and see how rational it is.

LOL...you can be as critical of me as you wish but you are wrong and here is scripture to prove it (you have none to support your thinking);

.....“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). And it is written in the Scripture, “Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffices us. Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father? Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?” (John 14:8-10).....

Many must stop and acknowledge...God is not man....so He can assign Himself in as many places as He wishes, in as many forms as He wishes, for as long as He wishes , as one God.
Scripture says no one has seen God and if you did you must die. Thus...the explanation of God in different forms....at the same time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, my perspective is not that Jesus is wearing three hats. I consider that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct individuals within the Trinity.

To be a "distihct individual" means they are separate. But you refuse to accept the reality of that.

It seems you don't really grasp what you are arguing for.

 

[FreeGrace2]

LOL...you can be as critical of me as you wish but you are wrong and here is scripture to prove it (you have none to support your thinking);

.....“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30).

If you think Jesus is saying that He and the Father are the same Person, you have no discernment.

You can have your oneness movement theories.