I have heard it taught that death means separation...
(as physical death would be separation of the soul from the body)
So, if Adam died spiritually, it would indicate that he was separated from God at the time that he ate the fruit?
Isaiah 59:2.
What are you thoughts on Annihilation?
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(as physical death would be separation of the soul from the body)
So, if Adam died spiritually, it would indicate that he was separated from God at the time that he ate the fruit?
Isaiah 59:2.
Hi, Lucy… consider that the eternal fire of God can also be a symbol of His protection and presence, as in Zechariah 2:5. (The word “her” of course refers to Jerusalem.)
Zechariah 2:5 NKJV
5 For I,’ says the Lord, ‘will be a wall of fire all around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.’ ”
I also share that there was a separation between Adam and the Almighty, but only in terms of good vs evil or light vs. dark (in fulfillment of the 1st day of creation week).
Indeed Isaiah 59:2 is true. However, if we follow this teaching that Adam's separation from the Almighty was a "spiritual death" (that passed to all men) then wouldn't their covering of animal skins represent/prophesy "spiritual reconciliation/restoration" through the future atonement in Christ?
As we continue to read in the following chapters, indeed the first family was separated from His personal garden for their sin - as if the garden was a Holy of Holies on earth - but The Almighty remained with them, guided them, and even spoke directly with Adam's sons. Recall He spoke with Cain twice, once even after murdering his brother...and STILL, even after that, The Almighty showed mercy by marking Cain so that no one would murder him.
Enoch was taken because he pleased Him. And The Almighty ate with Abraham and also called him a friend.
I'm not certain that I fully understand what you are saying by what I have placed in larger letters, above.
Could you elaborate on that a little bit more?
May I ask you to clarify?
Do you believe it is me who is doing so (particularly in that post you quoted of mine)? Just asking. = )
[by the way, I am not EQUATING Deut4:24,9:3 with that of Rev20:10... NO.. just to be clear]
What you have provided below I disagree with the greek word violations to support one VERSE in the text of 2 Thessalonians 1:9
2 Thessalonians 1:9 -
Berean Study Bible
They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction [G3639], separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,
Berean Literal Bible
who will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction [G3639] away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
King James Bible
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction [G3639] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[quoting from BibleHub]
[G3639 ^ ]
Definition: destruction, death
Usage: ruin, doom, destruction, death.
HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
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here is what I see.
2Thessalonians 1:3-12
1. you are trying to make the context of this chapter established with one verse while sacrificing the other 11 verses.
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The context of this chapter is God final judgment and it states clearly:
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
This is an eternal punishment from the Presence of the Eternal God. the context of everlasting is everlasting. IF they were being annihilated then why did not God just say so as HE did with Noah's Generation and Sodom and Gomorrah? Why did God even say
"from the Presence of the lord"? You hung your hat on the term "destruction" but failed to deal with HIS Eternal Presence. the context of everlasting is " a state of being that will never change.
Oh... well, it's an entirely different topic than this one, but I believe The Almighty is fulfilling each day of creation week in the corresponding millennium (i.e. 1000 years) of mankind since the time of Adam (which leads me to a different interpretation of eschatological events). If you're interested you can read a summary here.
https://christianchat.com/threads/2000-years-and-end-times-connection.201117/post-4643975
But as far as Adam's separation from The Almighty; I believe day 1 of creation week was fulfilled in the 1st 1000 years of mankind with Adam's separation from The Living God's personal presence because of sin:
Genesis 1:3-5
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
Righteousness/God (light); Sinful man/Adam (darkness)...and it happened in the first "day" ("a day is as 1000 years"; psalm 90:4; 2 Pet 3:8)...and it even occurred with the eating of fruit from a tree called "knowledge of good & evil".
The post summarizes the fulfillment of each day as far as my studies go.
I know what it is. If I want to read a concordance, I will look at one.
Presenting your thought/ideas/beliefs/Scripture in that form on a message board make it difficult to read.
I think that it would indeed represent that; while it would not amount to Adam and Eve being born again and thus having their relationship with God restored in the moments that they received the coverings of the animal skins. It would represent what God would do through the coming of Messiah; at a point that was yet in the future to them.
Did you even read what I had quoted from:
[re: the word for "destruction" in v.9]
HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
In NO WAY had I implied that this verse (v.9) doesn't mean "ETERNAL / EVERLASTING / FOREVER / ENDLESSNESS"... IT DOES!!
Yes, that's what the point of my post was saying. The "sentence" is NEVER REVERSED!
Well, to be honest, so is your pastel font incredibly difficult for my old eyes to see,
...but I do my best to muddle through and read your posts without complaint, and by not insisting you change what you're accustomed to using, coz I firmly believe you're completely free to post your fonts in pastel if you so choose. = ]
Have you ever considered using a text-to-speech app for reading the boards?
It might help save some general wear and tear on your eyes
Is this a better shade of purple for you?
"thanks-but-no-thanks..."
I'm pretty sure I have spent too much of my life in this thread already.
I plan to soon make an exit...
It could/would if the earth is thrown into the lake of fire...
Who said it would be on the New Earth? (I sure did not.)
I did not say any such thing.
(referring to the New Earth part)
I'm sorry, maybe I got ahead of myself. We were talking about Isaiah 34:9-10. It occurs on earth and you said it was a future event and it will last forever. I skipped way into the future to the New Earth and I just don't see how it could last forever.
In Revelation 20:14, the word 'This' is not referring [directly] to "the lake of fire" right before it; rather, it is referring to the time-and-place 'event' whereby 'death and hell were cast into the lake of fire'.
It is entirely erroneous to say that:
'lake of fire' = 'second death'.
(That would be 'eisegesis'.)
I'm trying to grasp what you're saying, but it's unclear to me. Could you maybe re-phrase??
Also, if you do ^ , would you mind looking at the way the verse is phrased at this link (coz I DO grasp that
).Tell me what you see differently. Thanks. = )
-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/20-14.htm
My question to you (additional to the above) is: do you believe v.10 is stating that:
"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to / unto the ages of the ages." [i.e. "forever and ever"]
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Wrong.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The second death is being destroyed in lake of fire. Things not alive are simply destroyed. Those who are alive shall die then be destroyed.