What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Laura798]

I don't think so. i think Jesus was giving an account of a true story, since in all other parables he never gave the characters a name. He did in this, and only this story.

Radius,

What then do you make of this verse?

"'Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable' --Matthew 13:34

Using the name Lazarus was probably intentional, knowing that he would soon be raising Lazarus from the dead. And OF COURSE it is a parable. Abraham and everyone else are still in their graves until Christ comes again. Also, how would that be heaven "Where there is no more sorrow and no more tears, if you could actually SEE and talk to people suffering?" How could they be close enough to talk and Abraham and the beggar not be burned? If there is a great chasm how were they able to hear each other? How could the rich man carry on a conversation if he was engulfed in flames? And if you think he's some disembodies spirit, how would the flames hurt him and how would he talk? If he were a body being eternally burned, wouldn't his speech be interrupted in betwixt his tongue being regenerated? Wouldn't his eyes be burned too--how did he see Abraham? How did Abraham happen to be at that location to have this conversation in the first place? If you believe everyone goes directly to heaven and hell (which is thoroughly unscriptural by the way) There must have been millions upon millions on either side--how did the rich man see Abraham and the beggar?
Oy Vey.... and I'd venture to guess you believe Grimms Fairy Tales are factual too?

 

[ewq1938]

Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

The verb above is in the Hiphil tense:
H8045
????
sha^mad
BDB Definition:
1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated
1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to annihilate, exterminate
1b2) to destroy
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2406

 

[ewq1938]

The fire is eternal.
If everything including all the wicked the spirits where annihilated at some point, why would the fire be eternal?

Because the fire originates from the eternal God:

Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ezekiel 22:31 -

31 So I have poured out My indignation upon them and consumed them with the fire of My fury. I have brought their ways down upon their own heads, declares the Lord GOD.”


[means they're DEAD... DONE... no longer permitted to enjoy this earthly existence...]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Isaiah 28:22 -

Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption H3617 , even determined upon the whole earth.



Jeremiah 30:11a -

For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end H3617 of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not... [...]

 

[Gardenias]

Thankful for IGNORE option,no more blather of false doctrines.

Thankful also for the simplicity of God's word,he said what he means and meant what he said.
He is not a God of errors. His word is plain.

Thankful for those who follow the truth of his word,for the truth will set us free!

 

[Magenta]

Thankful for IGNORE option,no more blather of false doctrines.

Thankful also for the simplicity of God's word,he said what he means and meant what he said.
He is not a God of errors. His word is plain.

Thankful for those who follow the truth of his word,for the truth will set us free!

Amen. God repeatedly said the penalty for sin is death. I believe it

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

G2654
?ata?a??´s??
katanalisko¯
kat-an-al-is'-ko
From G2596 and G355; to consume utterly: - consume.

Hebrews 12:29 seems to be quoting from this first verse I'll list, here:

Deu 4:24 -

For the LORD H3068 thy God H430 is a consuming H398 fire, H784 even a jealous H7067 God. H410



Deu 9:3 -

Understand H3045 therefore this day, H3117 that the LORD H3068 thy God H430 is he which goeth over H5674 before H6440 thee; as a consuming H398 fire H784 he shall destroy H8045 them, and he shall bring them down H3665 before thy face: H6440 so shalt thou drive them out, H3423 and destroy H6 them quickly, H4118 as the LORD H3068 hath said H1696 unto thee.




So H398 is... - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h398/kjv/wlc/0-1/

 

[Magenta]

Deu 9:3 -

Understand H3045 therefore this day, H3117 that the LORD H3068 thy God H430 is he which goeth over H5674 before H6440 thee; as a consuming H398 fire H784 he shall destroy H8045 them, and he shall bring them down H3665 before thy face: H6440 so shalt thou drive them out, H3423 and destroy H6 them quickly, H4118 as the LORD H3068 hath said H1696 unto thee.

Interspersing numbers with the text like that makes it difficult to read.

It is quite different from having verse numbers interspersed

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@Magenta , that's a Copy & Paste directly from BlueLetterBible... a study source.




Read it in your own version if you like...

I'm pointing out the word "consuming [H398]" connected with the one ewq1938 was pointing out from Hebrews 12:29 (which is a quote from the Deut4:24 verse... which idea is also expressed in Deut9:3).

So H398 is... - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h398/kjv/wlc/0-1/

 

[CS1]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 -

Berean Study Bible
They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction [G3639], separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,

Berean Literal Bible
who will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction [G3639] away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

King James Bible
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction [G3639] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



[quoting from BibleHub]

[G3639 ^ ]

Definition: destruction, death
Usage: ruin, doom, destruction, death.

HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."


[end quoting]







____________

Regarding the devil and the beast and the false prophet:

Rev20:10 -


Berean Study Bible
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever [/unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]].

Berean Literal Bible
And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

King James Bible
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever [/unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]].

word violations to manipulate the context within the text.

 

[Laura798]

Thankful for IGNORE option,no more blather of false doctrines.

Thankful also for the simplicity of God's word,he said what he means and meant what he said.
He is not a God of errors. His word is plain.

Thankful for those who follow the truth of his word,for the truth will set us free!

Again....your own words--zero Scripture . Yes, thank God for his Word--and it is not always simple, obvious by the fact so many twist it and put meanings to the text that isn't there.

"As he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."--2nd Peter 3:16

"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."--2 Timothy 4:3-4

Case in point--eternal conscious torment is a pagan MYTH.

 

[justbyfaith]

I don't know if 2 Thessalonians 1:9 has been mentioned.

To me, it is explained by the algebraic equation y = 1 / x.

Where x is the allotted period of time and y = the wholeness of the individual.

Here, y keeps getting less as x increases; and y never reaches zero.

So, it is everlasting destruction as y continues to decrease.

 

[Yahshua]

The first lie of Satan to mankind was "You shall not surely die." But God had warned them beforehand--if they sinned against His commandment not to eat of the tree they would die. It's important to note that it says IN THE DAY (not on) you eat of it--of course they did not die immediately, but in that day, they received the death sentence that was pronounced for sinning for all mankind. But God 'covered' them with the animal skins, just as believers are covered by the righteousness of Christ.

I like to show this to prove that the Almighty is true to His word.

"...In the day..."

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.


2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


Genesis 5:5
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.


930 years is "in the same day" that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit if we look at time from The Almighty's eyes and not our own. Adam died and returned to the ground within 1000 years of eating the forbidden fruit. Perfect.

 

[justbyfaith]

I like to show this to prove that the Almighty is true to His word.

"...In the day..."

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.


2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


Genesis 5:5
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.


930 years is "in the same day" that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit if we look at time from The Almighty's eyes and not our own. Adam died and returned to the ground within 1000 years of eating the forbidden fruit. Perfect.

Is it not also true that Adam died spiritually rather than physically when he ate of the forbidden fruit: even on the day, according to man's timing, that he ate it?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

word violations to manipulate the context within the text.

May I ask you to clarify?

Do you believe it is me who is doing so (particularly in that post you quoted of mine)? Just asking. = )




[by the way, I am not EQUATING Deut4:24,9:3 with that of Rev20:10... NO.. just to be clear ]

 

[akaBeliever]

What an interesting thread this is! We see so much evil in this world every day that it’s easy to be tempted by the desire for the wicked to suffer eternally for all the misery they have caused. In Psalm 104: 35, David actually prayed, “Let sinners be consumed from the earth, and let the wicked be no more.” Like David, we want to see sin and wickedness end. I believe our just and merciful Father has already answered David’s prayer with a perfect plan for an end to sinners that will satisfy all of us who know and love Him. I can think of nothing worse than to come to a realization that God IS truly the Great I Am, that He has offered a way to live with Him forever through Jesus Christ, and then to have to face destruction because of a life foolishly lived for self. Instead, we ought not “fret because of evildoers,” or on the method of their demise. It is enough that they have no future. In Christ, we DO have a future, and it’s going to be awesome. May evildoers come to repentance.

Psalm 37 NKJV
The Heritage of the Righteous and the Calamity of the Wicked
A Psalm of David.

Do not fret because of evildoers,
Nor be envious of the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.
3 Trust in the Lord, and do good;
Dwell in the land, and feed on His faithfulness.
4 Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
5 Commit your way to the Lord,
Trust also in Him,
And He shall bring it to pass.
6 He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light,
And your justice as the noonday.
7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him;
Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way,
Because of the man who brings wicked schemes to pass.
8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath;
Do not fret—it only causes harm.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off; (destroyed)
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
12 The wicked plots against the just,
And gnashes at him with his teeth.
13 The Lord laughs at him,
For He sees that his day is coming.
14 The wicked have drawn the sword
And have bent their bow,
To cast down the poor and needy,
To slay those who are of upright conduct.
15 Their sword shall enter their own heart,
And their bows shall be broken.
16 A little that a righteous man has
Is better than the riches of many wicked.
17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken,
But the Lord upholds the righteous.
18 The Lord knows the days of the upright,
And their inheritance shall be forever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time,
And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
21 The wicked borrows and does not repay,
But the righteous shows mercy and gives.
22 For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth,
But those cursed by Him shall be cut off. (destroyed)
23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord,
And He delights in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
For the Lord upholds him with His hand.
25 I have been young, and now am old;
Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken,
Nor his descendants begging bread.
26 He is ever merciful, and lends;
And his descendants are blessed.
27 Depart from evil, and do good;
And dwell forevermore.
28 For the Lord loves justice,
And does not forsake His saints;
They are preserved forever,
But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land,
And dwell in it forever.
30 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom,
And his tongue talks of justice.
31 The law of his God is in his heart;
None of his steps shall slide.
32 The wicked watches the righteous,
And seeks to slay him.
33 The Lord will not leave him in his hand,
Nor condemn him when he is judged.
34 Wait on the Lord,
And keep His way,
And He shall exalt you to inherit the land;
When the wicked are cut off, you shall see it.
35 I have seen the wicked in great power,
And spreading himself like a native green tree.
36 Yet he passed away, and behold, he was no more;
Indeed I sought him, but he could not be found.
37 Mark the blameless man, and observe the upright;
For the future of that man is peace.
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together;
The future of the wicked shall be cut off.
39 But the salvation of the righteous is from the Lord;
He is their strength in the time of trouble.
40 And the Lord shall help them and deliver them;
He shall deliver them from the wicked,
And save them,
Because they trust in Him.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Is it not also true that Adam died spiritually rather than physically when he ate of the forbidden fruit: even on the day, according to man's timing, that he ate it?

Romans 5:12 -

Wherefore, as by one man [the] sin entered into the world, and death by / by means of [the] sin; and so [the] death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.



I do not see where some 900+ years passed after the garden incident before "[the] sin entered into the world"... Right!

 

[Yahshua]

Is it not also true that Adam died spiritually rather than physically when he ate of the forbidden fruit: even on the day, according to man's timing, that he ate it?

It's an interesting question. They did lose something if that's what you're getting at. Scripture says that they saw they were without clothing and ashamed for the first time. But I don't think it's necessary to spiritualize death with Adam.

What would "spiritual death" mean? If death means "expiration", does spiritual death mean "expiration of the spirit" that animated Adam's body? I'm not sure there's an argument for spiritual death since a body is not animated without the power of spirit. Plus when a man returns to the dust the spirit returns to the Almighty.

Or does "spiritual death" mean corruption of the heart? Definitely, the act of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil corrupted their hearts, but also the decay (i.e. mortality) began.

As Paul explains that while it was Adam's sin that led to his death, it's death (mortality) that leads us to sin since all mankind was within Adam - and part of his flesh - when he was punished.

We don't read of any other moments in Adam's account when he sinned again but we do read of the terrible evil the world fell into in Genesis 6 (necessitating its destruction). In that chapter the Almighty says his spirit will not always strive with man for he is flesh.

Mortality makes people fearful and selfish leading to them doing evil things to one another...and so if this is how you mean "spiritual death" then I can agree that this is what happened at that very moment. Adam's heart was corrupted.

 

[peldom10]

I believe in eternal torment, as probably most of us do here. But this guy lays out a pretty good argument for annihilation.

So what...it doesn't change the Bible.

Like Andy Stanley...I understand...has now stated that we need not follow God's commandments...Christ did it for us. Crazy. I now understand He will publish a book in a few months explaining that.

I will be the first one out there NOT to buy it.